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So, what do you guys think about watch lists?

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Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#61 - 2015-04-01 16:31:34 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
I love watch lists as much as the next guy, but sometimes it feels overpowered as an intelligence source. Especially in w space where the lack of local adds to the mystery and shroud, but watch lists kind of undermine that. Any thoughts?



How do you feel about local. If there we ever overpowered free intel... local chat would be it.

Since you're a CSM and since you brought it up could you do us a favor and give your views as to the differences as you see them between the watchlist and local.

Local - intant free intel you only have to be logged in for. Used costantly to avoid conflict. Allows risk free game play in all but WH.

Watchlist - instant, but at least you have to do some up front work and add the dude for it to work (so not exactly 100% free). It's primarily used as an aid in creating conflict - not in avoiding it.


Not Chance, but I can see one major distinction

Local - only works in local
Watchlist - works anywhere in New Eden

Not saying Local is good, but it isn't of quite the same caliber, IMO, as the watchlist when it comes to scope
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2015-04-01 16:32:44 UTC
100% accuracy . . . oh to be able to alter that number

Have something that put a little random in it. False logins or delayed relay of information or both. Let them chase ghosts fora while. The closer you are to someone elses sov the more accurate they watchlist is, on your own turf? All of it becomes questionable.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#63 - 2015-04-01 17:18:27 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Just going to jump in quickly to stop any fears about this. Our general rule with the API is that you cannot get anything in it you cannot get in game.

thats the theory, but something like the siphon problem might manifest again. Where API made a module nearly useless.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#64 - 2015-04-01 17:23:10 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
blah blah


blah blah eve is hard blah.


Well, the Intel of local is mutual. Everyone in local can see everyone else in local. I can by counter watch list everyone in a corp that's my target, and use that info unbeknownst to them to figure out when to run locator agents. Or for instance a corp I am camping can watch list me and know when not to run sites, or when to. Kind of detracts from the mystery of it for me.


The same way the corp you are camping watchlists you, the same way you watchlist them and know when they are running sites, or how many numbers do they have on, or if they are waiting for your bomber in a cloaky something.

It's amazing I know! Every day you learn something new!

~lvl 60 paladin~
Eanok
POS Party
Ember Sands
#65 - 2015-04-01 20:56:25 UTC
Absolutely nothing wrong with the watch list. It's a necessary part of warfare and tactics.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#66 - 2015-04-01 21:01:42 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
100% accuracy . . . oh to be able to alter that number

Have something that put a little random in it. False logins or delayed relay of information or both. Let them chase ghosts fora while. The closer you are to someone elses sov the more accurate they watchlist is, on your own turf? All of it becomes questionable.

m

Yes, a little bit of random would be good. Opt out would be even better. I don't like people knowing when I am logged on all the time. I sometimes feel obliged to do things that I'm not in the mood for. Sometimes it would be good just to log in quietly.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#67 - 2015-04-01 21:34:42 UTC
Evan Roc wrote:
SNIP .... They show both the hunted and hunter when the other in online, that's it. Many other factors involved before you consider them free intel


This is not how they work: - I can put you on a watch list that will inform me when you are online and I can choose do this secretly.

This behavior is unbalanced, ISK free and risk free.

It needs to be removed with the exception of mutual approval - and - it should become a function of the locator agents with appropriate charges and a percentage of failure.
Eanok
POS Party
Ember Sands
#68 - 2015-04-01 22:26:05 UTC
No watch list means filthy spineless cowards can run and hide with damn near impunity.

Making changes just for the sake of making changes is just stupid. How about some polls on how POS changes are going to effect the wormhole community.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#69 - 2015-04-01 22:34:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Eanok wrote:
No watch list means filthy spineless cowards can run and hide with damn near impunity. Making changes just for the sake of making changes is just stupid.

It works both ways. It is also a strong defensive tool. It is OP in both directions. Honestly, the amount of noise the wormhole community makes about local is incredible but just mention nerfing the watchlist and suddenly things are different.

Eanok wrote:
How about some polls on how POS changes are going to effect the wormhole community.

How about you go post in the relevant threads?

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2015-04-01 22:49:02 UTC
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:
The same way the corp you are camping watchlists you, the same way you watchlist them and know when they are running sites, or how many numbers do they have on, or if they are waiting for your bomber in a cloaky something.

It's amazing I know! Every day you learn something new!


And in the end a PVP game turns into risk management exercise. That is precisely what's wrong with intel like local or watchlists. Because it has no counter (except perhaps afk cloaking), it is 100% correct and it's given for free, players are encouraged to put excessive effort into risk avoidance. You then end up with ship spinning and afk cloaking threads.
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#71 - 2015-04-01 22:58:16 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:


Just going to jump in quickly to stop any fears about this. Our general rule with the API is that you cannot get anything in it you cannot get in game. The game does not tell you when someone adds you as a contact/watchlist unless the person checks that little box to do it. The API is not going to either, at least not in any directly useful way.

When we did the yearly stats we thought it would be OK to add the number of times you have been added as a contact there because it's yearly aggregate information. There is no way to know in the last hour someone did it, all it tells you is X people did it in the year 2014.

Unless the game changes to tell you this stuff in the client the API wont either.

Hope that answers your questions/concerns about that. :)


Awesome to know, thanks Socks Four :)
Eanok
POS Party
Ember Sands
#72 - 2015-04-02 00:28:42 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Eanok wrote:
No watch list means filthy spineless cowards can run and hide with damn near impunity. Making changes just for the sake of making changes is just stupid.

It works both ways. It is also a strong defensive tool. It is OP in both directions. Honestly, the amount of noise the wormhole community makes about local is incredible but just mention nerfing the watchlist and suddenly things are different.


Eanok wrote:
How about some polls on how POS changes are going to effect the wormhole community.

How about you go post in the relevant threads?


I'm fine with no local.

How about you go polish Chance Ravine's shoes.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#73 - 2015-04-02 00:33:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Eanok wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Eanok wrote:
No watch list means filthy spineless cowards can run and hide with damn near impunity. Making changes just for the sake of making changes is just stupid.

It works both ways. It is also a strong defensive tool. It is OP in both directions. Honestly, the amount of noise the wormhole community makes about local is incredible but just mention nerfing the watchlist and suddenly things are different.


Eanok wrote:
How about some polls on how POS changes are going to effect the wormhole community.

How about you go post in the relevant threads?


I'm fine with no local.

How about you go polish Chance Ravine's shoes.

That's exactly my point. No local is good because it adds risk and challenge and makes the game better because free intel is bad and cheapens tactics and all the rest. Unless you're talking about watchlists, apparently, where all that stuff is just fine.

You can even record people's log on/off patterns with the notification feed just by setting the history to on and leaving your character logged in. Ridiculous.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Candi LeMew
Division 13
#74 - 2015-04-02 04:59:05 UTC
Zappity wrote:
That's exactly my point. No local is good because it adds risk and challenge and makes the game better because free intel is bad and cheapens tactics and all the rest. Unless you're talking about watchlists, apparently, where all that stuff is just fine.

You can even record people's log on/off patterns with the notification feed just by setting the history to on and leaving your character logged in. Ridiculous.

Yep, no local is good. That's partly why many wormholers enjoy living in w-space.

In your other post you mentioned wormhole community makes noise about no local? Wat.gif?

Why would we? We're happy. Don't care about what goes on in k-space for the most part.

The fact with watchlists is the majority of people don't have a problem and this honestly wouldn't even be a thing had Chance not made a thread about it. Nobody cared, other than a few scattered people, many of whom aren't even wormholers. Point in case is this thread that's predominantly full of people saying watchlists are fine. It's not wormholers making any noise really, other than to say "Away with this crap.".

🍌

Remember... in Anoikis Bob Is Always Watching...

"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James
Iyokus Patrouette
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2015-04-02 05:16:11 UTC
confirming 'Away with this crap' is my default response on the topic.

---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#76 - 2015-04-02 05:37:38 UTC
Candi LeMew wrote:
Yep, no local is good. That's partly why many wormholers enjoy living in w-space.

In your other post you mentioned wormhole community makes noise about no local? Wat.gif?

Why would we? We're happy. Don't care about what goes on in k-space for the most part.

I obviously wasn't clear enough, sorry. I know that you like no local. It seems strange to me that you are so keen on preserving other perfect intel. The wormhole community always teases null about local because it makes things easy.

Candi LeMew wrote:
The fact with watchlists is the majority of people don't have a problem and this honestly wouldn't even be a thing had Chance not made a thread about it. Nobody cared, other than a few scattered people, many of whom aren't even wormholers. Point in case is this thread that's predominantly full of people saying watchlists are fine. It's not wormholers making any noise really, other than to say "Away with this crap.".

There have been threads about this before. Watchlist doesn't care if you are in a wormhole or k-space so it is not only a wormhole issue.

Oh, and more people in this thread are advocating for some sort of change than those who want the status quo. You can count them if you want.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Candi LeMew
Division 13
#77 - 2015-04-02 06:00:03 UTC
Zappity wrote:
I obviously wasn't clear enough, sorry. I know that you like no local. It seems strange to me that you are so keen on preserving other perfect intel.

People keep using the word "intel" and it just doesn't feel right.

I like having no local. Not for any intel related reason directly, but simply because of the atmosphere it gives to w-space. Cloak and dagger. In terms of watchlists it's just a tool and feature that I don't feel degrades from this atmosphere at all. Quite simply, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Zappity wrote:
The wormhole community always teases null about local because it makes things easy.

They/we do? What?

I thought it had more to do with gates, stations and F1 megablobs and the people who like that stuff.

Zappity wrote:
There have been threads about this before. Watchlist doesn't care if you are in a wormhole or k-space so it is not only a wormhole issue.

Oh, and more people in this thread are advocating for some sort of change than those who want the status quo. You can count them if you want.

Sure. Look around features and ideas and you'll find threads on pretty much anything and everything, great ideas to terrible ones. But because threads have been made previously doesn't really mean much (worth noting it's not really been a discussion topic in this section before ... which tells you something). I mean heck, I've made suggestions for fashion related improvements, but that doesn't mean because I made a thread it's an actual thing (as much as I wish it would be). Lol

To me, keeping the appearance of physically simulated hair in final, rendered portraits is a much more pressing issue than watchlists. (corbexx Attention)

This is wormholes, where people are stylish and complain about POS mechanics, Jack Miton and arranged fights. Not watchlists and local.

As for this thread I have no need to tally up those for/against/abstain. I've lived in wormholes for almost five years and I've never heard anyone raise watchlists as a serious or vital issue. Never. I get that same vibe as I read this thread.

🍌

Remember... in Anoikis Bob Is Always Watching...

"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James
Krops Vont
#78 - 2015-04-02 09:19:10 UTC
You can go about this multiple ways.


  • Remove it from w-space usability. Every time you are in a wormhole, it doesn't work.

  • Delay it, make it take time for online to show.

  • FozzieFatigue™ it. The more contacts you add, the less it works or something like that.

  • Contacts only work on grid.

  • Contacts only work if both parties have each other added.

  • You require to place a structure where contacts work system wide. (This probably is skewed for those with TS or Solo)

  • Remove watchlist from the game. Game changing, but think about it.

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Pissfat
Tactically Challenged
The Initiative.
#79 - 2015-04-02 09:30:27 UTC
So much sooking in this thread about such a small thing really.

Leave it be.

I am Winthorp you might remember me from such films as i got CCP to make signature ID's persistent through DT for their love of AU bros.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2015-04-02 10:13:11 UTC
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:
...

The same way the corp you are camping watchlists you, the same way you watchlist them and know when they are running sites, or how many numbers do they have on, or if they are waiting for your bomber in a cloaky something....

do you have access to personal data of all the people who has access to yours in RL (talking about government, your company, etc...)?
Or maybe you have access to financial data of your bank like they have access to your?

Hint: watchlist gives you ability to watch for someone but it's not that you always know who you can watch.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"