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So, what do you guys think about watch lists?

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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#41 - 2015-04-01 05:03:35 UTC
watch lists are a bit silly in a scifi universe. (but so are other chat features which became intel tools, like local)

If it would go away i would mostly miss it since i no longer would see when a friend comes online. But watching your targets might be a little OP i have to admit.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Coelomate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2015-04-01 05:51:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Coelomate
Watchlists are huge with supers, since leaving them logged on is a real security risk (drifting out of a POS due to accidental click, bump by a spy, etc.). It's also a crucial tool for hunting lone supers as they log in to make moves.

It's not exactly breaking the game though. Especially with everything else going on in EVE these days (sov, structures, etc.), I don't think watchlisting warrants attention from CCP right now.

(Edit: obviously supers aren't relevant to wormholes, but that's IMO the most significant use of watchlists in terms of gameplay balance, so it would be relevant to any change)

Love,

~Coelomate

Frightstar
Rolling Static
No Vacancies.
#43 - 2015-04-01 05:52:07 UTC
I think they should be removed, or at least change how they function to require a mutual agreement to be enabled. Its so incredibly easy especially in wh-space to gain what in my humble opinion is waaaay to easy intel. With services like eve-tools available i can watch list an entire 100man corp in a few minutes of clicking to get them all added.

If i open into a new WH look up what corp lives there via zkill and watch list them all without having to do any scouting on my own it kind of removes the mystery of w-space. I should be worried that there might be 20 cloaked t3s from the owners waiting for me, not seeing nothing on d-scan but 20 people online and getting a large part of the picture for me answer for me.

We were recently removing a wormhole of a smaller corp all we had to do was watch list them all and we knew when we had to really pay attention them trying to get things in/out. The watchlist made it way to easy for us to keep tabs on them.

Nox52
Pterygopalatine
#44 - 2015-04-01 06:17:29 UTC
Watchlists are overpowered and unbalanced. I would strongly urge the people who have thought otherwise to change reevaluate their position.

Once you are watchlisted, you have no ability to mitigate that one way or the other, making it inherently unbalanced. It also gives you free intel in the form of notifications if anyone is in actually in-game. Some have said that it doesn't give you location intel. It can easily tell you when someone is logged in the game in your chain which is more than enough to stalk. Many a log off/ log on trap or super/titan have been orchestrated at the expense of only a bit of elbow grease. Watchlists are instrumental and invaluable in evictions to gage the level of opposition you are likely to face at a moment in time, both on the defender or and attacker side.

I am strongly of the opinion that they should be removed (as well as local in null). They removed api killmail pulls so I don't see why this couldn't be removed from wh space or globally as well.

Current friendship functionality can easily be restored by a function of mutual consent to watch-listing or when chars are blue to each other.
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#45 - 2015-04-01 06:49:14 UTC
Alundil wrote:
BayneNothos wrote:
Watchlists are fine, you still have to see the guy or start running intel checks to get that watchlist contact. It's part of the hunt. I would love being able to set a time on the contact, after which it deletes itself though.

What I'm more worried about is the CREST API stuff surrounding it. For those of you who poked around with

https://spreadsheetsin.space/year-in-review/

will have seen that it shows how many times OTHERS have added you as a contact. If this is available through the API for all, then things change. Being able to write a tool that'll notify you if someone else watchlists you will be a big change that I'm not sure would be in the best interest of all.

Good to see you throwing questions around though, keep it up.

I don't recall that site displaying when someone added you to a watch list. Only that they have added you as a contact to set standings.

There are many many many pilots who I have listed as a contact for standings purposes who are not and would likely never be added to a watch list because I don't care when they are online. Only that I see standings indicators in the overview and local if I see them in kspace.



http://pasteboard.co/2ezc0sZd.png

Yah I'm on a slight sidetrack to watchlists with this. If I can check my API for anytime someone sets a standing on me its just like they're sending me an evemail about it. That I'm not a big fan of. Generally anything that can be automated in the background I'm a bit wary of having available.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#46 - 2015-04-01 08:30:31 UTC
BayneNothos wrote:
Alundil wrote:
BayneNothos wrote:
Watchlists are fine, you still have to see the guy or start running intel checks to get that watchlist contact. It's part of the hunt. I would love being able to set a time on the contact, after which it deletes itself though.

What I'm more worried about is the CREST API stuff surrounding it. For those of you who poked around with

https://spreadsheetsin.space/year-in-review/

will have seen that it shows how many times OTHERS have added you as a contact. If this is available through the API for all, then things change. Being able to write a tool that'll notify you if someone else watchlists you will be a big change that I'm not sure would be in the best interest of all.

Good to see you throwing questions around though, keep it up.

I don't recall that site displaying when someone added you to a watch list. Only that they have added you as a contact to set standings.

There are many many many pilots who I have listed as a contact for standings purposes who are not and would likely never be added to a watch list because I don't care when they are online. Only that I see standings indicators in the overview and local if I see them in kspace.



http://pasteboard.co/2ezc0sZd.png

Yah I'm on a slight sidetrack to watchlists with this. If I can check my API for anytime someone sets a standing on me its just like they're sending me an evemail about it. That I'm not a big fan of. Generally anything that can be automated in the background I'm a bit wary of having available.


Just going to jump in quickly to stop any fears about this. Our general rule with the API is that you cannot get anything in it you cannot get in game. The game does not tell you when someone adds you as a contact/watchlist unless the person checks that little box to do it. The API is not going to either, at least not in any directly useful way.

When we did the yearly stats we thought it would be OK to add the number of times you have been added as a contact there because it's yearly aggregate information. There is no way to know in the last hour someone did it, all it tells you is X people did it in the year 2014.

Unless the game changes to tell you this stuff in the client the API wont either.

Hope that answers your questions/concerns about that. :)

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#47 - 2015-04-01 09:29:42 UTC
The watchlist is fine. It indeed provides some level of information, but since its on a per-character basis, and not even on a per-account basis, it is not that powerful.

To really use it to its full power, by -say- compiling a list of active supers pilots in an ennemy alliance, you need a lot of investment.

Besides, logging off is a legitimate escape mecanism. As long as your ship continues to dissapear in space (after some delay, yes), it seems legitimate to have the ability to tell whever a pilot is online or not, as its the only possible indicator that a ship before you is doing this technique.

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Fermin Mascagranzas
Uranus Intruders
COALICION HISPANA
#48 - 2015-04-01 12:06:10 UTC
Excuse my ignorance, but what is a watchlist? Sounds like something important for a newb adventuring in WH
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2015-04-01 12:07:52 UTC
how am I gonna convo people?
Strangelove Utama
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#50 - 2015-04-01 12:35:34 UTC
I think watch lists should function sort of how the locator agents function. You would have to go to a "watch list agent" and they would tell you whether your target has been online in the past ~30 minutes. That way you wouldn't immediately know when Alliance A Bridging Titan logs in unless you were actively checking. This way you would still be able to get relatively accurate information but you would actually have to do something to get it.

For those who use watch lists for social purposes perhaps make it function as it does now if both parties add each other.

Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
Chao3 Alliance
#51 - 2015-04-01 12:39:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Saisin
Fermin Mascagranzas wrote:
Excuse my ignorance, but what is a watchlist? Sounds like something important for a newb adventuring in WH


It is...

Go check the active POSes in any WH (the ones with force field).
Look Show Info, then click on corporation info for that tower, then attributes, then Founder and CEO characters and add them to contact, clicking add to checklist. You will immediately see if they are online or not in your notifications.
You can also go to Eve-Who and do the same for all the active towers corps members and see who is connected and very likely lurking online and cloaked immediately.
You can also check the killboards for that WH in the past 24 hours and do the same of any character showing up there.

Counter is for everyone living in a WH to log in after downtime and cloak their alt in space after going AFK. It is only remotely possible for players that have the means to stay logged all day on a computer likely dedicated to Eve. Others are more or less screwed as the wtachlist will immediately warn of any connection of local inhabitants.

Watchlist participates, amongst other things, of favoring the most well-to-do players that can remain logged all day long.

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O'nira
Litla Sundlaugin
#52 - 2015-04-01 12:50:07 UTC
am fine with it staying, fine with it getting removed.

i would get content from both personally wich is all i care abou
Arwatt Wahad
House Wahad
#53 - 2015-04-01 14:55:44 UTC
Strangelove Utama wrote:
I think watch lists should function sort of how the locator agents function. You would have to go to a "watch list agent" and they would tell you whether your target has been online in the past ~30 minutes. That way you wouldn't immediately know when Alliance A Bridging Titan logs in unless you were actively checking. This way you would still be able to get relatively accurate information but you would actually have to do something to get it.

For those who use watch lists for social purposes perhaps make it function as it does now if both parties add each other.



Considering all that's being said, I believe this to be one of the most balanced options.

Any player has the option to be watchlisted by friends for social reasons, while a "hunter" still have a tool to seek targets, but now that intel has a cost, and a delay like locator agents have.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#54 - 2015-04-01 15:11:54 UTC
It's utter garbage that my aeon pilot (obviously not in a wh) can't log in w/out allerting potential prey that my bridge is now available to wonk up on them. Free intel on if my super is online or offline is game breaking. It's bad enough I can't dock the darn thing - everone and their brother knows when I log it in.

We need to get rid of watch lists or at least destroy their present functionality.

SOS - Save Our Supers!!!
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#55 - 2015-04-01 15:29:12 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
I love watch lists as much as the next guy, but sometimes it feels overpowered as an intelligence source. Especially in w space where the lack of local adds to the mystery and shroud, but watch lists kind of undermine that. Any thoughts?



How do you feel about local. If there we ever overpowered free intel... local chat would be it.

Since you're a CSM and since you brought it up could you do us a favor and give your views as to the differences as you see them between the watchlist and local.

Local - intant free intel you only have to be logged in for. Used costantly to avoid conflict. Allows risk free game play in all but WH.

Watchlist - instant, but at least you have to do some up front work and add the dude for it to work (so not exactly 100% free). It's primarily used as an aid in creating conflict - not in avoiding it.
CivilWars
Half Empty
#56 - 2015-04-01 15:32:13 UTC
Holy crap there are some whiny cunts in w-space these days. Back in my day...

HTFU or GTFO.

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scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#57 - 2015-04-01 15:52:57 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
It's utter garbage that my aeon pilot (obviously not in a wh) can't log in w/out allerting potential prey that my bridge is now available to wonk up on them. Free intel on if my super is online or offline is game breaking. It's bad enough I can't dock the darn thing - everone and their brother knows when I log it in.

We need to get rid of watch lists or at least destroy their present functionality.

SOS - Save Our Supers!!!

Just to make a point, the watchlist function doesn't tell people that you logged in a super pilot, only that you logged in a pilot capable of flying a super. It's your problem, and a problem with mechanics, that that pilot logging in means a super logging in because they never eject from it.

As for the locator agent idea, that sounds like a great idea if this were in a K-space forum but this is a J-space forum where we don't have the luxury of free intel available in station.
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#58 - 2015-04-01 16:04:21 UTC
I remember being shocked to learn watch lists didn't require mutual consent and offered 100% accurate and instant Intel the first time j figured out what they were.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT

Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#59 - 2015-04-01 16:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Obil Que
Zappity wrote:
Perfect, free intel is bad. Watchlists are OP. There is a good argument for them in a social context but that could be achieved by an approval mechanism from the other person.

See this thread for more: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=386367


This, 100%

It isn't just in wormhole space either, I've used watchlists to engage in "market PvP" and 0.01 people after they log off. It is used extensively in high-sec wardec'ing to keep tabs on the enemy without being anywhere near them. I've even been able to use watchlist information to make fairly accurate determinations of a persons alts across different corporations. If you have the right characters on your watchlist, you can learn all kinds of things.

They should be changed to mutual approval to achieve the social goals and eliminate the free intel uses
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#60 - 2015-04-01 16:30:21 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
I love watch lists as much as the next guy, but sometimes it feels overpowered as an intelligence source. Especially in w space where the lack of local adds to the mystery and shroud, but watch lists kind of undermine that. Any thoughts?



How do you feel about local. If there we ever overpowered free intel... local chat would be it.

Since you're a CSM and since you brought it up could you do us a favor and give your views as to the differences as you see them between the watchlist and local.

Local - intant free intel you only have to be logged in for. Used costantly to avoid conflict. Allows risk free game play in all but WH.

Watchlist - instant, but at least you have to do some up front work and add the dude for it to work (so not exactly 100% free). It's primarily used as an aid in creating conflict - not in avoiding it.


Well, the Intel of local is mutual. Everyone in local can see everyone else in local. I can by counter watch list everyone in a corp that's my target, and use that info unbeknownst to them to figure out when to run locator agents. Or for instance a corp I am camping can watch list me and know when not to run sites, or when to. Kind of detracts from the mystery of it for me.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT