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ICE Mining ruined by spawn changes, multiboxers and farmers?

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Rose Honey
Small Holdings Inc.
#141 - 2015-03-31 08:52:09 UTC
Falken Falcon wrote:
What do you suggest, ban alts?
and have you tried leaving high sec? There is plenty of ice in new eden if one is willing

Also input automation is bannable, so isboxing is no no. If you suspect that someone is doing that, report them.


Isboxer is not banned at all. You can still use it for a number of things without breaking any rules.
Man Milk
Ugly Duckling Inc
#142 - 2015-03-31 20:19:54 UTC
A couple of suggestions....

1. Join/create a corporation with other players that becomes the fleet that mines out the spawn thus pushing out the competition. You don't have to go BFF style with them, you all want the same thing so fleet up, say a polite hello on comms & then mine away with fleet/Orca boosts running.

2. Try other activities. You never know, you may actually find something else more enjoyable. There are so many other things ingame that can be done solo if you really don't want to socialise.

Eve is only a game so don't get frustrated with it and most of all don't become obsessed with a fat wallet full of Isk if all you plan on doing is sitting in ice belts.

Peace xxx

'Fail we may. Sail we must.'
Spinzel
Doomheim
#143 - 2015-03-31 20:43:58 UTC
I went to mine in a random hi-sec ice system not far from jita today. The spawn after DT lasted for over 3 hours and when it respawned again at around1900 EVE time there wasn't that many people again so overall a good session. No problem here, a system you're in is really busy, find another.
ashley Eoner
#144 - 2015-03-31 22:36:23 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Hermanni Pursiainen wrote:
Eve Solecist wrote:
Hermanni Pursiainen wrote:
Mining itself is already a pretty ****** way of getting income. You can do stuff like incursions for 120m+/h no problem in super safety.

Mining is **** isk and people know it. Thats why it needs to be multiboxed to at least make it somehow feel like you are getting money out of it.

Icemining changes were stupid. Mining is stupid. Why mine when you can earn more in less time with less effort, yes thats right less effort.

Mining needs to get a huge revamp and buffs so its actually worth people's time.

edit: I am talking specifically about ore mining,
because you started talking about mining in general.

You do not understand how it works,
so to help you avoid future posts like these,
I will explain it to you in a short and simple manner.


The prices of minerals are directly related to the prices of everything built by said minerals.


When people ask for "buffs" they usually ask for ...

.) Higher yield, because they think selling more means more money/hr.
.) Higher prices, because they think that higher prices will result in having more money.
.) both.


I know I am repeating myself here, but ...
The prices of minerals are directly related to the prices of everything built by said minerals.

I guess it makes more sense the other way round.


Everything you build from minerals is tied to the prices of minerals.


.) Higher yield = more minerals/hr = more minerals sold/hr = prices of minerals drop.
.) Higher prices = 99% of all modules rise in price = no actual gain in your wallet.



I hope this helped teach you why asking for any buffs regarding the income of miners is rather silly,
and also brought you a bit closer to understanding how the game works.

EDIT:

See ... the real issue comes from people only looking at the number,
but completely ignoring the fact that numbers are meaningless without an attached value.

Miners always earn the same amount of value,
only changing when there is a shift in prices happening for some reason,
which usually doesn't last very long.


In the end miners always earn the same value,
because there's a fixed ratio minerals/modules.


Yes, obviously mining products are the bottom building block for all industry in EVE.

Im not saying CCP should increase yield or whatever. Also increasing prices is not something CCP can really do, the market is run by players. Only real way to push mineral prices is to increase demand and that would mean tweaking all industry to require more materials. All in all it would only push prices of almost everything up.

Im saying mining needs a rework to be something you actually want to do, something that actually earns you isk. It shouldnt be something that people do afk with 30 alts and make **** isk by selling mining products.

We already have mining missions, but those are just stupid in general. How about combine normal mining with mining missions. You mine to get mining products to sell and isk/lp/standings for doing that **** in the first place. Could actually be something worth the time. Wouldnt upset the market since there would be no real changes in supply or demand and on top of that you would gain isk from an independent source.
So basically you want CCP to snap their fingers and magically increase your isk income because you can't be bothered to.

There are many ways for you to make more isk and if you consider mining to not be worth it I question why you continue. Obviously mining is worth it to enough people or there would be ore shortages and possibly higher prices. Anything that makes mining "something that actually earns isk" means you've increased the costs of ores which increases the cost of minerals which increases the costs of modules while also increasing the costs of everything else. So overall all parts of and including the ship increase in cost so you end up where you were before in income relative to ship costs. All you managed to do is screw most everyone else over in the process..

Level 4 mining missions are good for +30m an hour while mostly AFK. How would you combine that with regular mining without making it silly in income? If you want to convince people you're going to need something more than vague pronouncements. Currently many level 4 security missions already have large stores of roids and most people ignore the rocks because the actual mission part is more profitable. How will you change that so it's the other way around without effecting the ore/mineral market and thus everything else?

Like I said earlier you should be pitying anyone that is mining with 30 alts in highsec. I'd dispute that anyone is even doing that anymore. You're probably mistaking a small group of people for a boxer. I know a few groups that look like a boxer when they are out mining.


Buy a t1 variation of a in interceptor and fit it like an interceptor with an ore scanner in the cargohold. Now go check a bunch of a systems including dead ends and such. Use the ore scanner to see what's available. If you spend a little time I guarantee you'll find not only a lot of ore that isn't being mined but also ice.
Hermanni Pursiainen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2015-04-01 04:08:59 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Hermanni Pursiainen wrote:
Eve Solecist wrote:
Hermanni Pursiainen wrote:
Mining itself is already a pretty ****** way of getting income. You can do stuff like incursions for 120m+/h no problem in super safety.

Mining is **** isk and people know it. Thats why it needs to be multiboxed to at least make it somehow feel like you are getting money out of it.

Icemining changes were stupid. Mining is stupid. Why mine when you can earn more in less time with less effort, yes thats right less effort.

Mining needs to get a huge revamp and buffs so its actually worth people's time.

edit: I am talking specifically about ore mining,
because you started talking about mining in general.

You do not understand how it works,
so to help you avoid future posts like these,
I will explain it to you in a short and simple manner.


The prices of minerals are directly related to the prices of everything built by said minerals.


When people ask for "buffs" they usually ask for ...

.) Higher yield, because they think selling more means more money/hr.
.) Higher prices, because they think that higher prices will result in having more money.
.) both.


I know I am repeating myself here, but ...
The prices of minerals are directly related to the prices of everything built by said minerals.

I guess it makes more sense the other way round.


Everything you build from minerals is tied to the prices of minerals.


.) Higher yield = more minerals/hr = more minerals sold/hr = prices of minerals drop.
.) Higher prices = 99% of all modules rise in price = no actual gain in your wallet.



I hope this helped teach you why asking for any buffs regarding the income of miners is rather silly,
and also brought you a bit closer to understanding how the game works.

EDIT:

See ... the real issue comes from people only looking at the number,
but completely ignoring the fact that numbers are meaningless without an attached value.

Miners always earn the same amount of value,
only changing when there is a shift in prices happening for some reason,
which usually doesn't last very long.


In the end miners always earn the same value,
because there's a fixed ratio minerals/modules.


Yes, obviously mining products are the bottom building block for all industry in EVE.

Im not saying CCP should increase yield or whatever. Also increasing prices is not something CCP can really do, the market is run by players. Only real way to push mineral prices is to increase demand and that would mean tweaking all industry to require more materials. All in all it would only push prices of almost everything up.

Im saying mining needs a rework to be something you actually want to do, something that actually earns you isk. It shouldnt be something that people do afk with 30 alts and make **** isk by selling mining products.

We already have mining missions, but those are just stupid in general. How about combine normal mining with mining missions. You mine to get mining products to sell and isk/lp/standings for doing that **** in the first place. Could actually be something worth the time. Wouldnt upset the market since there would be no real changes in supply or demand and on top of that you would gain isk from an independent source.
So basically you want CCP to snap their fingers and magically increase your isk income because you can't be bothered to.

There are many ways for you to make more isk and if you consider mining to not be worth it I question why you continue. Obviously mining is worth it to enough people or there would be ore shortages and possibly higher prices. Anything that makes mining "something that actually earns isk" means you've increased the costs of ores which increases the cost of minerals which increases the costs of modules while also increasing the costs of everything else. So overall all parts of and including the ship increase in cost so you end up where you were before in income relative to ship costs. All you managed to do is screw most everyone else over in the process..

Level 4 mining missions are good for +30m an hour while mostly AFK. How would you combine that with regular mining without making it silly in income? If you want to convince people you're going to need something more than vague pronouncements. Currently many level 4 security missions already have large stores of roids and most people ignore the rocks because the actual mission part is more profitable. How will you change that so it's the other way around without effecting the ore/mineral market and thus everything else?

Like I said earlier you should be pitying anyone that is mining with 30 alts in highsec. I'd dispute that anyone is even doing that anymore. You're probably mistaking a small group of people for a boxer. I know a few groups that look like a boxer when they are out mining.


Buy a t1 variation of a in interceptor and fit it like an interceptor with an ore scanner in the cargohold. Now go check a bunch of a systems including dead ends and such. Use the ore scanner to see what's available. If you spend a little time I guarantee you'll find not only a lot of ore that isn't being mined but also ice.


Yes exactly, there are more ways to make isk than just mining. Mining however is such an important thing to the entirety of EVE. Someone has to do **** like this in order for everything else to be possible in game.

So why are miners the bottom feeders? They should have the same possibility for greater income just like mission runners, ratters, incursioners etc. Currently its not possible.

All Im saying is mining needs to be worth while. No point arguing any different.

Having a combined mining mission + normal mining setup would mean what 60m/h with it being half mining product income and half mission income. Mining product income again is dependent on the market so it is subject to change.
Hermanni Pursiainen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2015-04-01 04:09:48 UTC
And that alone is still HALF of what incursioners make per hour. At least it would be a step in the right direction though.
ashley Eoner
#147 - 2015-04-01 20:18:40 UTC
Hermanni Pursiainen wrote:
Yes exactly, there are more ways to make isk than just mining. Mining however is such an important thing to the entirety of EVE. Someone has to do **** like this in order for everything else to be possible in game.

So why are miners the bottom feeders? They should have the same possibility for greater income just like mission runners, ratters, incursioners etc. Currently its not possible.

All Im saying is mining needs to be worth while. No point arguing any different.

Having a combined mining mission + normal mining setup would mean what 60m/h with it being half mining product income and half mission income. Mining product income again is dependent on the market so it is subject to change.
Because miners only engage in bottom feeding. Mining is the absolute bottom of the industry food chain. If you want to make more isk mining than invest a little time into producing a more refined product. Mission runners make awful isk per hour if they stick to doing level 1 missions. They have to upgrade their capabilities and invest time/isk into getting to the real isk making levels. So stop sticking to the level 1 aspect of industry....

They already have combined missions with mining in several security missions. Most people ignore the roids because they don't want to be bothered with spending time/effort. So there's going to need to be more than just put regular ore in the mining mission sites...

Incursion runners make a wild variety of isk per hour depending on contests/population/fellow fleet members/FCs/etc. I've been in HQ fleets where people shuffling in and out and some bad scouting caused us to only do about 70m an hour for a while. I've been in fleets where only +4b isk ships were allowed and still only done 100m an hour. On the flip side you can occasionally +150m an hour for well about an hour. Maintaining +120m an hour for long periods of time is difficult. Every little second of wasted time adds up quickly when engaged in an activity over a length of time.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#148 - 2015-04-01 20:46:57 UTC
Hermanni Pursiainen wrote:
So why are miners the bottom feeders? They should have the same possibility for greater income just like mission runners, ratters, incursioners etc. Currently its not possible.


If you want greater income from mining, destroy the competition - all of it.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Olivia Moon
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#149 - 2015-04-02 01:50:08 UTC
I wonder, why doesn't people understand the mechanism of economics?
Everything is about supply and demand.
The ice mining changes limits the supply and hence,
the number of ice going into the market is fixed since the change.
It means the price of ice is totally reflected by BUYERS - namely demands.

I understand that you are mad at people mining in a very hardcore way - multiboxing.
It is their play style and you are free to have the same style.

What CCP did, is to stabilise the price of ice by limiting the supply.
Can't you see how great is that?

To the point of multi boxing, the spawn actually impacted multi boxing as well.
You got bunch of accounts doesn't mean you can have easy money.
In terms of easy, it means you need to be conscious to the timing of each spawn.
You miss the spawn, you get less isk.
Without this change, it means whenever you like to mine, you log in and mine.

CCP could also add items that uses ice to manufacture.
Fuel blocks and jump fuels are the main use of ice.
Which means a limited DEMAND.
And eventually, is the only cause to the price fluctuation.
Boslar
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#150 - 2015-04-04 15:36:33 UTC
Moar miner tears
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#151 - 2015-04-04 16:49:08 UTC
Man Milk wrote:
A couple of suggestions....

1. Join/create a corporation with other players that becomes the fleet that mines out the spawn thus pushing out the competition. You don't have to go BFF style with them, you all want the same thing so fleet up, say a polite hello on comms & then mine away with fleet/Orca boosts running.

Or instead, follow the blobbers' ideal

Just join the fleet that mines out the spawn

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2015-04-04 23:59:33 UTC
In case it hasn't already been mentioned: I'd recommend joining a nullsec corp. Christ, we have icebelts everywhere that never even get 10% depleted, let alone wiped out every spawn.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2015-04-06 02:29:38 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Most MMOs are gambler's dilemma. You keep coming back because of investment.

The game was supposed to be immersive. Not sure how removed clones is immersive, nor how multibox farming is immersive, but w/e.

Yes, Farming has ruined it. We have to admit the economics behind ore: Those who are willing to sell for a lower price will outbid you as a miner. Multiboxing compounds that. Farmers have always ruined game economies, and instead of battening down on it, and tightening restrictions, CCP caved to short term money interests by allowing multiboxing farming and so on. I've seen guys with 20 alts, all named Xxxxx1 through Xxxxx20 and so on, mining out entire belts with their ships. All those paid accounts are great for CCP, the automation (scripting) makes it easy for the player, and ore prices drop causing it to be a worthless profession for newbies...

Which is where mission running comes in.

The easier the game gets, the less worthwhile it is for new blood, which is exactly who they believe they're targeting by making the game easier.

ashley Eoner wrote:
Hermanni Pursiainen wrote:
Yes exactly, there are more ways to make isk than just mining. Mining however is such an important thing to the entirety of EVE. Someone has to do **** like this in order for everything else to be possible in game.

So why are miners the bottom feeders? They should have the same possibility for greater income just like mission runners, ratters, incursioners etc. Currently its not possible.

All Im saying is mining needs to be worth while. No point arguing any different.

Having a combined mining mission + normal mining setup would mean what 60m/h with it being half mining product income and half mission income. Mining product income again is dependent on the market so it is subject to change.
Because miners only engage in bottom feeding. Mining is the absolute bottom of the industry food chain. If you want to make more isk mining than invest a little time into producing a more refined product. Mission runners make awful isk per hour if they stick to doing level 1 missions. They have to upgrade their capabilities and invest time/isk into getting to the real isk making levels. So stop sticking to the level 1 aspect of industry....

They already have combined missions with mining in several security missions. Most people ignore the roids because they don't want to be bothered with spending time/effort. So there's going to need to be more than just put regular ore in the mining mission sites...

Incursion runners make a wild variety of isk per hour depending on contests/population/fellow fleet members/FCs/etc. I've been in HQ fleets where people shuffling in and out and some bad scouting caused us to only do about 70m an hour for a while. I've been in fleets where only +4b isk ships were allowed and still only done 100m an hour. On the flip side you can occasionally +150m an hour for well about an hour. Maintaining +120m an hour for long periods of time is difficult. Every little second of wasted time adds up quickly when engaged in an activity over a length of time.




This is true to the extent that upgrades are necessary to grow for runners or miners. Its not true to the extent that mining is limited. Its difficult to spawn your own personal mining belt by going to an agent.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#154 - 2015-04-06 02:35:33 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
All those paid accounts are great for CCP, the automation (scripting) makes it easy for the player, and ore prices drop causing it to be a worthless profession for newbies...

Automation?

Did you make sure to petition them, that isn't allowed...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
ashley Eoner
#155 - 2015-04-06 03:40:56 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:



This is true to the extent that upgrades are necessary to grow for runners or miners. Its not true to the extent that mining is limited. Its difficult to spawn your own personal mining belt by going to an agent.

If by difficult you mean bothersome to talk to an agent more than once.



What you described for a multiboxer is illegal and bannable.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#156 - 2015-04-06 06:31:50 UTC
Im not sure when that changed, but allowing cloned keystrokes to multiple boxes has been something CCP has allowed before.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
ashley Eoner
#157 - 2015-04-06 07:52:47 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Im not sure when that changed, but allowing cloned keystrokes to multiple boxes has been something CCP has allowed before.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=387571
Spinzel
Doomheim
#158 - 2015-04-06 08:33:14 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Im not sure when that changed, but allowing cloned keystrokes to multiple boxes has been something CCP has allowed before.


The days you spoke off are over, I haven't seen any such xxx1 xxx2 names in a long time. The kind of players who did that (input broadcasters) had their playstyle banned.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2015-04-06 13:22:35 UTC
Too many people jumping on top of limited resources.
Problem: the stuff is too valuable
Solution: seed more until nobody can mine it all
What will happen: value will plummet


I support the above action and feel all highsec resources should be extremely abundant.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Dave Stark
#160 - 2015-04-06 13:32:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
refreshing, another "i should be able to do the same thing as an organised and efficient group" thread.

make your own friends, and outmine the competition. if you can't make friends, i'm sure you can persuade some one to deliver some CNAM to your competition at a knock down rate.





Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Too many people jumping on top of limited resources.
Problem: the stuff is too valuable
Solution: seed more until nobody can mine it all
What will happen: value will plummet


I support the above action and feel all highsec resources should be extremely abundant.


so, you mean the exact system we had before the anomaly change?