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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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How to FIX the Eviscerated PVP Meta

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Author
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
#1 - 2015-03-30 21:42:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
TACTICAL DESTROYERS


Another example of balancing ineptitude. In traditional CCP fashion, they have created a new ship class that obliterates every T1 cruiser (some T2), and all frigate/destroyer hulls... Right after adjusting said classes.
The T3D are where CCP take all the lessons learned about balance, and throw them out the window.
You have a tiny hull, with very simple 10mn AB fittings, high damage, and a large tank. The vast majority of medium hulls simply can't hit them, and smaller craft very easily fall by the wayside.


We only have 2 of the 4, but CCP has already shown off their one-upmanship by making the Confessor look downright tame next to the Svipul. Shield tanking on the Svipul is far far far too easy to do, and it's only made worse by Link ships & pirate implants. Hell, I think a big slap to fitment will go a long way in bringing these ships in line. It certainly doesn't help that they are faster than most of the aforementioned ship classes

The argument of cost is also thrown out the window, when T3D are currently cheaper than Interdictors and most fit T1 cruisers.
I would say that along with AFs, Interdictors are obsolete thanks to these but those are still needed for bubbles. That is the only reason to choose one over a T3D. Hell, in LowSec the T3D are allowed in the same small complexes as the other frig-sized kin. WTF?


What is problem with the Release Process?


None of these things would be so bad if CCP weren't SO SLOW to react. Neither of these ships mentioned have been iterated on since they were first shown to the public. Despite players testing, arguing, and discussing the downsides to these ships, CCP hasn't done anything.

That is the first step. LISTEN to your player base and thoroughly test your ships.
Everyone wants new ships, but nobody wants to play a game where the new ships are utterly broken.
If you've got a deadline to make, put the ships out with a disclaimer saying that they are subject to change.

We know the Devs wanted to release all 4 ships before any balancing is done, but that is unacceptable.
We've experienced this workflow time and time again, and it's never proven to be a good one.
There is plenty of data available for the current T3Ds, and it's pretty obvious what the fundamental flaws are.


So how do you fix them?

First things first, the ships are far too easy to fit for the strengths they have.
In vanilla garb, they feature Cruiser level tanks with absurd cap stability. With mild upgrades, they cannot be broken by natural counters (AFs, Destroyers, Interdictors). This is especially relevant in low sec space, where T3D are allowed to enter the minor complexes.

That problem is exacerbated by the ships being designed around oversized propulsion mods (10mn ABs).
When combined with their tanking abilities, their minuscule signature & speed means that no cruiser+ hulls can track them OR keep them pinned down. The most effective counters are neutralizers and drones, which is all well and good if it weren't that most ships cannot field such things with any meaningful results.

There is one very very basic solution, and that is to nuke their fitting capabilities.
There is no reason why they should be able to fit oversized modules AND a complete tanking/high damage setup.

This would result in weaker setups overall that are decidedly less broken.

Furthermore, T3D have no business doing in excess of 3000m/s without speed mods/implants/links.
For all the strengths these ships have, giving them excessive speed (Svipul especially) makes it far more difficult to compete with smaller and larger ships.

In addition to all that, there is the cost. They are currently priced around that of a fit Cruiser/AF (after insurance payouts).
A similarly priced/fit Interdictor or Assault Frigate gets ~1/3rd of the payout that a T3D gets.

In conclusion, the ships have been in the game for long enough.
It's time you fix them, regardless of the Jackdaw & Hecate's status.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Reina Xyaer
Tha Lench Mob
#2 - 2015-03-30 21:58:56 UTC
+1

inb4 someone says "show us where the Svipul touched you".

T3s are all OP... Nerf all T3s.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2015-03-30 22:22:58 UTC
So how much tank and speed do you think they should have?

You can fit 10mn ABs to Dictors, should they be nerfed hard too? What about 100mn Tengus/Ishtars?

What the hell kind of svipul is pulling 3km/s with no mods fitted? (Or do you mean with only a propmod? Because they do that with a 1mn MWD you know.)

Is the 45 CPU and 8 grid a svipul has over a thrasher really gamebreaking? (Consider: The 10mn AB has the same CPU requirement as a 1mn MWD, and needs 55 Mw grid. If you give the thing less grid than a T1 destroyer, what's the point of it?)
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#4 - 2015-03-30 22:34:02 UTC

I very much agree with the sentiment of this post....

While the new t3 dessies are insanely fun to fly, they are certainly out of balance with all other frigates, dessies, and cruiser hulls.

To be frank, they are fast pushing out most other small ships from the meta, and that needs to be addressed.

Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
#5 - 2015-03-30 22:38:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
Danika Princip wrote:
So how much tank and speed do you think they should have?

This is what testing is supposed to determine. Since they didn't do any, I can't give you a definitive answer.
I CAN tell you that they shouldn't be faster than AFs or Interdictors. Same speed maybe, but not faster.

Danika Princip wrote:
You can fit 10mn ABs to Dictors, should they be nerfed hard too? What about 100mn Tengus/Ishtars?
What the hell kind of svipul is pulling 3km/s with no mods fitted? (Or do you mean with only a propmod? Because they do that with a 1mn MWD you know.)

Fitting oversized mods to other ships comes with a large penalty to agility. The T3D do no have this problem.
For example; It takes a 10mn AB Confessor 10s to get up to 75% speed, and a similarly fit Heretic 20s to do the same.

The Svipul does that speed with a 10mn AB, not purely unfit.

Danika Princip wrote:
Is the 45 CPU and 8 grid a svipul has over a thrasher really gamebreaking? (Consider: The 10mn AB has the same CPU requirement as a 1mn MWD, and needs 55 Mw grid. If you give the thing less grid than a T1 destroyer, what's the point of it?)
Simply put, yes. This should be incredibly obvious, especially once you factor in the slot layout, base stats, and the hull bonuses.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#6 - 2015-03-30 22:46:25 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
So how much tank and speed do you think they should have?

You can fit 10mn ABs to Dictors, should they be nerfed hard too? What about 100mn Tengus/Ishtars?

What the hell kind of svipul is pulling 3km/s with no mods fitted? (Or do you mean with only a propmod? Because they do that with a 1mn MWD you know.)

Is the 45 CPU and 8 grid a svipul has over a thrasher really gamebreaking? (Consider: The 10mn AB has the same CPU requirement as a 1mn MWD, and needs 55 Mw grid. If you give the thing less grid than a T1 destroyer, what's the point of it?)


my svipul goes 3400 m/s in prop mode with MWD, nano and poly rig. Projects out to 40km, and still does 1.2k vollies with titanium sabot. It has obsoleted minmatar AF's, as it can fit a tank (unlike the wolf), and does way more damage than the jaguar when fit with arty. Svipul projects 190+dps out to 40km with way more tank/dps than the wolf, more speed than the jag, meanwhile, it does more dps than arty fit wolf. There is literally, no reason to use a minny AF at the moment now. Unless you're broke i guess.

In case you are too dense to realize, dictors and t1 dessies don't get 33% reduction to inertia, or a 66% speed bonus as a "mode". That alone, makes T3D's very powerful with oversized props (as prom mentioned, its like the class was designed around oversized props).

My svipul for instance, allows me to never leave prop mode. So i can go 3400 m/s cold (almost 5k hot), can fit a MASB, and project 190+ dps out to 40km, or about 290dps up to 20km. With titanium sabot, i get 20% tracking, so i have no real need to go into sharpshooter mode. And because my fit is as fast as a crow, i rarely get hit, so i have no need for defense mode.

I like flying the Svipul, as its the first time CCP got an arty boat right.. but its waaay too fast. Everything else is fine, but the fact that a dessie is faster than an AF is absurd.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#7 - 2015-03-30 22:49:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
We know the Devs wanted to release all 4 ships before any balancing is done, but that is unacceptable.
We've experienced this workflow time and time again, and it's never proven to be a good one.
There is plenty of data available for the current T3Ds, and it's pretty obvious what the fundamental flaws are.



Its more fun this way....each gets better than the other one. Can't wait to see t3d number 4, that should be so op ships blow up just by whipping out its fit in local lol


they didn't learn from t3 cruisers....its the oversized prop mod. t3d made it worse...10mn is cheaper.


Quote:
inb4 someone says "show us where the Svipul touched you".



or well it costs more so it should be better....see that one too in these threads. If cost and isk meant anything in this game these days I'd even give it some credit. I paid more for dramiels long ago when they too were op...and didn't get most of what svipul gets. One could say apples and oranges...I say my svipul can be your most common arty wolf fit (with tank now, more guns and 10mn ab) so apple and orange coexist here imo. Back in the day I'd run dramiel to avoid wolf/jag. Kind of like what peeps are doing with svipul now.
Reina Xyaer
Tha Lench Mob
#8 - 2015-03-30 22:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Reina Xyaer
Danika Princip wrote:
So how much tank and speed do you think they should have?


I have no specific amoung of tank and speed I think they SHOULD have. But I do know I think the tank and speed they are currently capable of is OP.

The point is not that we should go and arbitrarily assign how much tank and speed a ship should have...

The point is that these ships have way too much fitting freedom.

Svipul can fit 10mn AB, 2x medium shield mods (extenders or ASB), and still fit a full rack of guns, a scram, and fill the lows with whatever you want... nanos for speed, gyros for damage, TE for tracking. I can even fit a neut in my utility high with Genos.

That's 3x oversized cruiser modules, and still all the guns and utility you want. Sounds broken to me.

Danika Princip wrote:
You can fit 10mn ABs to Dictors, should they be nerfed hard too? What about 100mn Tengus/Ishtars?


Edit: Yes to Tengu/Ishtar nerf. No to Dictors, because fitting a 10mn AB on a dessie is not inherently broken, it's fitting a 10mn AB... AND cruiser tank... AND full rack of guns with damage mods... AND utility... AND the ability to switch into 3 different very powerful "modes". Dictors don't have modes, or the base stats of a T3D, so bad comparison Danika.


Danika Princip wrote:
Is the 45 CPU and 8 grid a svipul has over a thrasher really gamebreaking? (Consider: The 10mn AB has the same CPU requirement as a 1mn MWD, and needs 55 Mw grid. If you give the thing less grid than a T1 destroyer, what's the point of it?)


The point is to be extremely versatile and fun with it's mode switching abilities. Not for it to be better than all other ships in the Frigate and Destroyer class, and also some cruisers.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#9 - 2015-03-30 23:29:38 UTC
Simple fixes:

-Double the mat reqs. Having them at or higher than pirate faction frigs does help in regards to making them *slightly* less expendable.

-Increase their mass. Having a higher mass increases inertia and lowers top speed due to thrust on prop mods being less effective. This will help out the kite meta greatly due to them being clunkier than frigs, but still retaining all their other benefits.

-Hard limit prop mods. All 1mn goes on frigs and destroyers. All 10mn goes on cruisers and battlecruisers. All 100mn goes on battleships.
Ix Method
Doomheim
#10 - 2015-03-30 23:40:11 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
So how much tank and speed do you think they should have?

You can fit 10mn ABs to Dictors, should they be nerfed hard too? What about 100mn Tengus/Ishtars?

If the goal is still to have T3s lesser but better rounded than T2 its reasonable to ask if this is possible with both oversized props and solid damage projection they tend to be capable of.

Be a shame to see the end of oversized Pirate ships, etc. though.

Travelling at the speed of love.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#11 - 2015-03-30 23:45:14 UTC
wow not only is the OPs redundant but just about ever statement in this post has been made before in the other threads on this topic


this is one of the most redundant redundant threads i have seen
Reina Xyaer
Tha Lench Mob
#12 - 2015-03-30 23:53:40 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
wow not only is the OPs redundant but just about ever statement in this post has been made before in the other threads on this topic


this is one of the most redundant redundant threads i have seen


Sure, maybe it is...

but you know what... I think we should SPAM the forums with rage until CCP pulls their heads out of their asses and stops introducing stupid new gimmicks into the game, instead of balancing, fixing, or updating things.

So I say make as many threads as it takes to get their attention.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2015-03-30 23:55:56 UTC
Reina Xyaer wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
wow not only is the OPs redundant but just about ever statement in this post has been made before in the other threads on this topic


this is one of the most redundant redundant threads i have seen


Sure, maybe it is...

but you know what... I think we should SPAM the forums with rage until CCP pulls their heads out of their asses and stops introducing stupid new gimmicks into the game, instead of balancing, fixing, or updating things.

So I say make as many threads as it takes to get their attention.



but we already do CCP has already stated that they are aware that they aren't quit balanced

so all this is doing is cluttering F&I
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#14 - 2015-03-31 00:01:55 UTC
Quote:

Forum rules

17. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.

As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread.


Closed.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department