Player Features and Ideas Discussion

If the Vigil as a webbing platform would be considered too powerful, then it could only logically be assumed that webs are too powerful or have excessively broad utility.

The reason it does not make sense that the vigil is a painting boat is that frigate weapons by and large do not benefit from target painting. That makes them a sort of dedicated support for larger ships, something more easily and more logically filled by a larger escort, perhaps a bellicose or one of the missing battleships following tiericide.

The vigils own bonus does not aid its own user. That is the most salient point to be made in this thread. The other ewar boats can actually be hull tanked to some effect in solo pvp, and still can manipulate the battle to their favor. The Hyena has a similar complaint to be made, but it's not really a role that gets anyone's attention. It is simply a widely ignored bonus. If even rage rockets could be factor in the equation, this post wouldn't exist.

If we elected to sit down and have a little re-think on webs, I think it would be painfully apparent that they make for very limited gameplay. They are essential to have for gate camping, and without that, half the pvp in the game would go poof. Se we're already hobbling along. Setting that aside, they are limited in other areas as well. Outside of a few bonused ships and a few blingy modules, webs are pretty bog standard in terms of range and effect.

There are no boosting modules for them, nor any rigs. They don't have falloff, and there's no real downside to fitting them beyond any presumably lesser opportunity cost. The only time you might think about not fitting them is if you are in a fleet and that is not your role.

To those ends, I would further propose adding falloff to webs, as well as a lowslot or rig based range/efficacy booster module. As we all know, anything that gets a booster module or a ship with a bonus somewhere tends to get reeled back in capabilities. This would allow us to have skirmishes beyond 12ish km and well into disruptor range. A lot of different weapon systems would suddenly have a viable envelope. In addition, it would make a lot of disruptor range maneuvering rely less on tick-based slingshot maneuvers, although those would still work pretty well.

While simple mass-based formula would be handy for tweaking webifying mechanics further, those generally go against the business of combat at gates. Maybe that could be a good thing though. Maybe it is just the thing to bring battlecruisers and battleships back from the brink? How much more flexible could tackle frigates be if only anti-frigate setups sported webs?

Perhaps there is also a need for a hard counter to webs. Could it be built into afterburners? Could it be a natural bonus of assault frigates? That would have been a lot more fun than the MWD bonuses that just make them second class citizens in the frig world, and ignore their traditional fleet roles. It would cause quite the meltdown if half the AFs and/or half the Interceptors suddenly had AB bonuses instead of MWD bonuses some fine day.

The vigil should trade it's target painting bonus for a webbing bonus.

And what ship is going to be the TP boat in the T1 Ewar frigs? And you are going to make the Cruor useless?

No frigate really needs a target painting bonus, precluding the development of new mechanics surrounding target painting. The difference is makes in the application of any frigate sized weapon system is simply trivial.

The cruor has a range bonus, not an effectiveness bonus. Thus, there is even still room for variation, even in the absence of more varied mechanics for webs.

The only frigate sized ship that could benefit from a target painter is a cloaky frigate to accompany stealth bombers. If that were on the cheetah, we might actually get some mileage out of it.

Tracking and sig radius are opposed value in the calculation. If one matter, the other does too... The real problem with what he said is that anything that can't perfectly track benefit from a TP being applied, be it in optimal or falloff.

You are aware of that these are support frigates, right? They support mostly bigger ships and there the TP are a very valuable asset, especially for missile ships. If you (directed to you in particular) use the Vigil to support your frigate fleet with TPs, you are doing it hilariously wrong. That, however, is not the fault of the TP or the Vigil, that is your own failure.

I once suggested a role bonus on the vigil allowing it to fit two medium launchers...


-90% powergrid and -50% CPU cost of fitting medium launchers
T2 Heavy Launcher: 27.5 CPU and 10.5 MW
T2 Heavy Assault Launcher: 25 CPU and 11.3 MW
T2 Light Launcher: 24 CPU and 7 MW
T2 Rocket Launcher: 17 CPU and 4 MW

FW we use vigils a lot in med plexes (and ocasinaly in small/novice if we are using missile boats)


the do work better than the bell if you just need the TP bonus and the majority of the enemy fleet is in cruisers and up as they have a very hard time catching and hitting the vigil

Ok so instead of being a range bonus and **** on the cruors role its now gonna be a effectiveness bonus and **** on the daredevils role?

Even frigates will benefit from target painting making lml hit much better and ranged weapons such as beams, arty, rails and even pulse can get some great benefits from the added tracking they get. Besides that the vigil gets an effectiveness and a range bonus to painters where as the bellicose only gets effectiveness bonus. This makes the vigil superior at supporting at ranges where it cannot be hit by the opposing fleet. Further to help it being superior at staying at range is that its base locking range is more than 50% longer.

And I think that the vigil is fine as it already is. Just because you do not appreciate the effects of painting sufficiently does not mean that it needs massive buffing.

You started out this whole thread with a pre-existing assumption that the vigil was bad because you personally don't consider painting a highly useful bonus in frig vs frig combat as compared to other forms of ewar.

Unfortunately for you, not all frigs are balanced solely on how they perform in frig vs frig combat. Vigil is quite a nice support ship for mixing in with cruiser gangs or Svipul fleets, and helps other frigs apply damage to other frigs that have a small sig radius.