These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP Rise newbie stats

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Petre en Thielles
Doomheim
#161 - 2015-03-24 14:29:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Petre en Thielles
Veers Belvar wrote:

We need a game for everyone, not just a few diehards.


"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."

Jenn aSide wrote:

That just means you and I have the ability to be honest about it. I've been fighting Goons since 2008. Though I can't take REAL credit, I will say that TEST and Goons were blue as blue could get....till I joined TEST , next ting you kow, Fountain War (lol and yes I know i had nothing to do with it, just personally find it funny as hell).

My game experience would have been a lot less enjoyable without Goons or someone like them. The people who try to 'meta-game' away people they don't like (by lobbying CCP to change the game so that they will leave) are the same people who ignorantly believe that a soccer match would be so much fun if the other team didn't show up lol. in reality, a match where the other team doesn't show up is just called "practice' Cool


What's the quote? "Without villains there can be no heroes?"
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#162 - 2015-03-24 14:43:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
Petre en Thielles wrote:

Jenn aSide wrote:

That just means you and I have the ability to be honest about it. I've been fighting Goons since 2008. Though I can't take REAL credit, I will say that TEST and Goons were blue as blue could get....till I joined TEST , next ting you kow, Fountain War (lol and yes I know i had nothing to do with it, just personally find it funny as hell).

My game experience would have been a lot less enjoyable without Goons or someone like them. The people who try to 'meta-game' away people they don't like (by lobbying CCP to change the game so that they will leave) are the same people who ignorantly believe that a soccer match would be so much fun if the other team didn't show up lol. in reality, a match where the other team doesn't show up is just called "practice' Cool


What's the quote? "Without villains there can be no heroes?"


Are we the baddies?Cry
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#163 - 2015-03-24 14:47:04 UTC
Petre en Thielles wrote:


"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."


Truer words have never been typed, let alone spoken.
Serene Repose
#164 - 2015-03-24 20:40:34 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
Look who's taking scanty information and running with it like it's a revelation from on high. The most salient point made was (and of course you yourself say you missed this part) there is no conclusive information either way. There is no concrete evidence that "people" (as a category) who quit quit for a reason anyone can state. WHY? (That's just a three letter word, there.) Why? Because they didn't tell anybody and nobody asked them - as a category. Not enough data to claim there's a sample.

YES, SOME of these players who quit have said why. Thousands of people have quit this game. Thousands of people were not asked why they quit. There is no sampling. There is no data. There is no conclusion.


And yet folks have been stating a conclusion ("griefing makes players quit!") for years on this forum. Those of us without the "think of the children" agenda have been saying that for years do, telling people "you have no proof of that". And yet they (erm, YOU) persisted.

So the end result is that their is not enough evidence to draw a conclusion, but the evidence that does exist points in the direction of "griefing/ganking does not cause people to quit".

You can stay in denial all you like, it's your life to waste as you please, but one day you will come to realize that not only where you lying to yourself, but you were lying to yourself over a video game (and if you'll do that over a trivial matter, what does that portend for the rest of your like experiences?).
When are you going to prove that load of bilge you keep typing? (I know it probably made all kinds of sense to you when you posted it.) I'm also betting a Cadillac against a Cooper Mini you completely lost track of what point I was making.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#165 - 2015-03-24 20:43:04 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Pok Nibin wrote:
I know one of you insists he's operating with nothing but spotless integrity in this discussion, but reading that person's posts you see stuff like this. The report said they looked at the data and couldn't reach a conclusion. I think CCP should think twice before issuing another "report" like this.


The report did exactly what it should have, proved that the people who were so sure about the effects of something they personally disliked were wrong. If greifing/ganking were as bad as the 'think of the children' crowd says, there would be conclusive evidence of the fact.

As for 'spotless integrity', yes that's how I operate, because the day the need to lie about what happens in a video game (that matters not one bit in the grand scheme of things) is the day I stop playing all video games. I've said this before and I'll say it again, It's not my fault if some posters don't care for the truth in what we are discussing.
It was a rhetorical question. I don't care what you think. You have NO proof ganking people makes them stay in the game. You also have NO PROOF ganking people doesn't make them QUIT. You're priceless. "If you torture people they'll love you." I'm not in an argument with you. I'm just reeling from how you think your "approach" to a discussion is so pristeen as to be above reproach.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#166 - 2015-03-24 21:20:44 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:
It was a rhetorical question. I don't care what you think. You have NO proof ganking people makes them stay in the game. You also have NO PROOF ganking people doesn't make them QUIT. You're priceless. "If you torture people they'll love you." I'm not in an argument with you. I'm just reeling from how you think your "approach" to a discussion is so pristeen as to be above reproach.

Your issues with Jenn's tone aside, CCP Rise pretty much said both those things are true. He clearly said new players (<15 days) that are ganked are more likely to stay in the game than those not ganked. He also clearly said <1% of those unsubscribing tell CCP it is because of being ganked.

That may not be absolute proof, but the word of a lead CCP developer is a close as anyone external is going to get without access to the proprietary data collected by CCP. You should try to put your preconceived notions aside and embrace science and rational thinking as was the subject of Rise's talk.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2015-03-24 21:31:51 UTC

People will hang onto their preconceived notions for dear life, even when presented the evidence otherwise. I had the same assumptions about "rookie" ganks as well but it is a special kind of delusion to see data and then completely disregard it because it puts your views into question.

The arguments we see now are made with no sense of need to present any supporting data. It's as if someone's personal experience is the final answer to everything. It's dogma by definition.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Kaely Tanniss
The Conference Council
The Conference
#168 - 2015-03-24 21:32:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaely Tanniss
Veers Belvar wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


That's a lie. And I mean that, it's an actual intentional untruth, because YOU are here and look at the posters like you. And I'm here and while I am part of a null sec alliance, I'm mostly pve.

Despite what you let yourself think, the divide isn't "killers and collaborative people", it's weak willed people (too weak to deal with competition and such, thus they quit) and stronger willed people (whether they pvp or not) who don't let anything stop them from getting what they want.

This game should never try to cater to the weak willed types, it should remain a game that says "you can do as you wish, pvp, pve, industry, but you have to WANT it, this isn't your average hand holding "everyone is special and everyone gets an award" type game.


Well I almost quit out of boredom, after running L4s solo in a crummy maelstrom. The game offered no guidance about getting into incursions, group PvE, nullsec, etc...

In fact the wardecc mechanics actively encouraged social isolation and boredom. Talk about broken.

This game should not be just for those who seek to be part of nullsec politics. There should absolutely be the ability for new players to form a casual highsec PvE corp without getting beating into the ground by Marmite. The inability to do that leads to social isolation, boredom and quitting.

We need a game for everyone, not just a few diehards.


That is why the social aspect of the game is so important. You learn new things and do new things by having friends..by making yourself a part of the Eve community rather than alienating it. War decs teach new and old player a new path and new possiblities in Eve. It teaches that there is a lot more to Eve than shooting red X's and rocks. There is a plethora of options and possibilies available to ALL players of Eve if they are willing to search themout and be a part of something bigger than manufacturing isk. The game is about community...it is about fun. If you spend all of your time playing to make isk, it's just like a job.

War is a part of life and a part of Eve. Little, if any, ever chose war. It is a fact of life and a fact of Eve every player needs to be prepared for. After all, you will not get stronger unless you face someone stronger. If your are risk averse, Eve may not be for you. To lose players that can't hack it in a game like Eve is not really a loss. To butcher the game to cater to those who can't hack it..is a loss. Twisted

Oh...and btw Veers...something special has happened. I'm sure you'll hear about it soon enough. I look forward to your shiptoasts about it...hehehe Lol

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#169 - 2015-03-24 21:53:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Veers Belvar wrote:
Well I almost quit out of boredom, after running L4s solo in a crummy maelstrom. The game offered no guidance about getting into incursions, group PvE, nullsec, etc...
It's never too late to quit, can I have your stuff when you do?

There's a reason it's called a sandbox game, unlike most games Eve is not progression based, the game doesn't direct you to content, it's up to you to find or make your own; bearing in mind that you are part of that content for others, just as they are part of the content for you.

Quote:
In fact the wardecc mechanics actively encouraged social isolation and boredom. Talk about broken.
This is your opinion, not a fact. I addressed this particular opinion elsewhere in this thread. If it was a fact then those people that socialise in public chat channels would be a figment of your imagination, which is worrying, especially as I'm one of them.

Quote:
This game should not be just for those who seek to be part of nullsec politics. There should absolutely be the ability for new players to form a casual highsec PvE corp without getting beating into the ground by Marmite.
Good news, this is already the case.

You're giving Marmite entirely too much credit, even if all the wardec corps, gankers, pirates and other belligerent undesirables of highsec declared peace and banded together it would still be possible for new players to form a casual highsec PvE corp without getting roflstomped into the ground by Marmite.

It wouldn't surprise me if the aforementioned people offered advice and assistance to casual corps if they show some spine. Padding killboards is fine, but I would guess that the potential for getting good fights from the same people further down the line is probably a sizable consideration.

Quote:
The inability to do that leads to social isolation, boredom and quitting.
Your inability, not anybody elses.

Quote:
We need a game for everyone, not just a few diehards.
If it attracts people such as yourself? No, no we don't.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#170 - 2015-03-24 22:02:56 UTC
Aren't those stats from the same person who said "these stats say Battleships are fine". Only for the reddit community to rip them apart to show something else.........funny thing stats.....specially when you already have an answer in mind and just need to mold the stats to fit.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#171 - 2015-03-24 22:05:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Syn Shi wrote:
Aren't those stats from the same person who said "these stats say Battleships are fine". Only for the reddit community to rip them apart to show something else.........funny thing stats.....specially when you already have an answer in mind and just need to mold the stats to fit.
Yeah, you didn't watch the presentation did you?

CCP were surprised at what the study revealed as were at least 50% of the audience.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#172 - 2015-03-24 22:25:51 UTC

Syn Shi wrote:
Aren't those stats from the same person who said "these stats say Battleships are fine". Only for the reddit community to rip them apart to show something else.........funny thing stats.....specially when you already have an answer in mind and just need to mold the stats to fit.


If you want to discredit Rise by throwing tomatoes, at least take the time to link the context.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2xe2f0/are_battleships_really_irrelevant/

The people on Reddit make a good point that damage dealt, as a statistic on its own, is not a clear indicator of Battleships being the ships of choice for undocking. If you have an actual point to make about Rise's data in this thread, we are all waiting.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#173 - 2015-03-24 23:09:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
[offtopic]Sibyyl I hope you took a screenshot of the red headed avatar you were sporting yesterday, it was cracking.[/offtopic]

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2015-03-24 23:27:29 UTC

Thanks Jonah. All my previous portrait experiments are linked in my sig. I think red Sibs is second or third row down..

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Ito Eto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#175 - 2015-03-24 23:59:30 UTC
CPP and fanfest's surprise is more of an reflection of confirmation bias than a reflection on the stats themselves.
Young players (i would imagine) do not present a juicy enough target for most effective veteran gankers, you can harvest more tears from killing a barge than a velator with civilian miners on it.
You can sit in quite heavily populated hisec systems for days and not see any suspects or crims, ganks are simply not as pervasive as they are presented, except in a few select systems. When they do happen they can be very high profile, kind of like real life media hysteria when a a child murder is committed, thankfully rare, but when it does happen, oh the wailing and gnashing of teeth!

More relevant stats I'd like to see:-

Value of last lost ship/assets lost prior to unsubscribing. All MMOs live off time/emotional investment if your investment is wiped out, it much easier to leave.

Wardec status prior to, or during unsubscribing. Ive seen seen 2 ~20 man corps mass unsubscribe as a consequence of decs on newbro corps, which for many of the members basically meant drop corp or log-out for a week or longer with more persistent 'deccers.

Unsubscribes at 3, 6 9 12 months. How long does it take for pilots to realize the perceived SP wall/pay-to-level mechanic. Are there viable methods to mitigate the SP wall without breaking eve or making it pay to win.

Period since leaving a player corp and unsubbing. I think the "retention is poor in NPC corps" thing is a red herring, being in an NPC corp when unsubbing is a symptom not a cause. When I unsub I like to get my affairs in order and myself out of the corp to reduce disruption to my existing corp and my assets. I guess some are kicked from their corp due to inactivity/misconduct, then quit.



"Themepark" "Sandbox", these do not mean what you think they mean, EvE is as on rails as a freight train, and has as many attractions as Disneyland, but soundbites are easy, thinking is not.
Lifelongnoob
State War Academy
Caldari State
#176 - 2015-03-25 01:18:34 UTC
how many "newbie" accounts are actually new alt accounts for more experienced players.. hence why many dont die so easily
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#177 - 2015-03-25 01:28:08 UTC
Lifelongnoob wrote:
how many "newbie" accounts are actually new alt accounts for more experienced players.. hence why many dont die so easily



As you can tell by the responses above the Rise groupies only have one thought....and that is what Rise tells them.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#178 - 2015-03-25 01:33:30 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
Lifelongnoob wrote:
how many "newbie" accounts are actually new alt accounts for more experienced players.. hence why many dont die so easily



As you can tell by the responses above the Rise groupies only have one thought....and that is what Rise tells them.


Yeah, I certainly haven't been exceedingly critical of him a whole bunch of other times.

But then there's you, who reject facts because they don't fit your narrative. That is a level of intellectual dishonesty that is rare to find in humans.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#179 - 2015-03-25 02:20:28 UTC
Hang on guys! I have this great idea on how to get some statistics on how bad technology is!
Going to go ask the Amish what they think and hit them with a few quick questions, then run over to the next one, so I get their knee jerk answers. Blink

Going out and seeking weak targets to overwhelm will always be supported by the craven.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
When Fleets Collide
#180 - 2015-03-25 02:23:30 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Pok Nibin wrote:
It was a rhetorical question. I don't care what you think. You have NO proof ganking people makes them stay in the game. You also have NO PROOF ganking people doesn't make them QUIT. You're priceless. "If you torture people they'll love you." I'm not in an argument with you. I'm just reeling from how you think your "approach" to a discussion is so pristeen as to be above reproach.

Your issues with Jenn's tone aside, CCP Rise pretty much said both those things are true. He clearly said new players (<15 days) that are ganked are more likely to stay in the game than those not ganked. He also clearly said <1% of those unsubscribing tell CCP it is because of being ganked.

That may not be absolute proof, but the word of a lead CCP developer is a close as anyone external is going to get without access to the proprietary data collected by CCP. You should try to put your preconceived notions aside and embrace science and rational thinking as was the subject of Rise's talk.


Well, a lot of people get "griefed" out of the game due to the extremely poor theory of mind that the community exhibits. It oftentimes makes people reluctant to deal with the community and they leave in disgust.
At the same time, only about 1% of people quit due to being ganked.

Logical conlusion would be that ganking is not griefing.

As an aside, a lot of people join after EVE was advertised as a traditional PvP oriented game to them. It's only normal that those of them that experience traditional PvP early on are more likely to stick around. The product was as advertised for them.