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DRONE BALANCE suggestion
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Aeryn Maricadie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2015-03-23 22:21:11 UTC
I'm still wondering why drones need rebalancing, aside from Ishtars/Navy Vexors they seem fine to me.
A drone launch hotkey would be awesome though.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2015-03-23 23:01:36 UTC
Tryaz wrote:
Rowells wrote:
It's a very vague limitation. Sounds a lot like bandwidth to me.

I hope you'll allow me to clarify. Bandwidth functions for Drones like PG&CPU do for Turrets&Launchers. I'm proposing that Drone Control Channels would be like Hardpoints. The lack of an attribute for drones like Hardpoints is akin to having every ship able to fit up to 5 turrets or launchers, it flattens and obscures the tactical landscape and leads to strange fitting choices


train drones level 1, you can control 1 drone
train drones level 2, you can control 2 drones
etc
etc
etc

duplication/redundancy does not improve game play
Tryaz
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-03-24 00:15:37 UTC
Thank you to all respondents and contributors. I will expand upon my OP and attempt to answer all posts up to now over the next hour.

Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2015-03-24 01:04:57 UTC
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
This would basically destroy most drone boats. Remember Gallente isn't the only faction that uses drones, just because Ishtars are OP doesn't mean drones in general are.


they are, if not ishtar's it'll be domies and VNI, if not domies then guristas.... all of them, if not guristas than.

Now I know the alliance tourney is not a good metric for game balance, but the fact that last year theres was all but 4-5 setups that didn't use drones for DPS speaks volumes about how strong they are in the current state of the game.

and It was not just ishtars and seturies. VNIs, Gilas, Dominii, Eosii, were all just as bad.
Aeryn Maricadie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-03-24 01:07:10 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
This would basically destroy most drone boats. Remember Gallente isn't the only faction that uses drones, just because Ishtars are OP doesn't mean drones in general are.


they are, if not ishtar's it'll be domies and VNI, if not domies then guristas.... all of them, if not guristas than.

Now I know the alliance tourney is not a good metric for game balance, but the fact that last year theres was all but 4-5 setups that didn't use drones for DPS speaks volumes about how strong they are in the current state of the game.

and It was not just ishtars and seturies. VNIs, Gilas, Dominii, Eosii, were all just as bad.


There's a bunch of Amarr boats that would be messed up real bad by this proposal.
Tryaz
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2015-03-24 01:16:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tryaz
Here is a case study so that you can see in real terms what I am proposing. I would appreciate your feedback. I've also added this to the OP.

-CLARIFICATION- I don't want to begin a discussion about the stats or relative power of individual drones. (yet)

Case Study: some of you have been asking for an example of exactly what I might mean so I will attempt to oblige you. Let's compare the Vexor against the Thorax using the All Level V character on EFT [v2.27].

  • A naked Thorax equipped with 5x Heavy Neutron Blaster II with Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M outputs 318dps
  • A naked Vexor with a drone flight consisting of 2x Ogre II, 2x Hammerhead II and 1x Hobgoblin II outputs 315dps
    • - a fair comparison of the max damage brawling loadout of the turrets on a Hybrid ship against the drones on a Drone ship I trust you'll agree. My reason for suggesting the aforementioned changes is because of the following:

  • The engagement envelope of the Neutron Thorax looks like this:
    • -Signature Resolution: 125m
    -Tracking: 0.206
    -Optimal Range: 2250m + 6250m Falloff
    As long as the Thorax pilot can fit and fly to engage targets that fall within these parameters he/she can reasonably expect to consistently apply most of their damage.

  • The engagement envelope of the Vexor looks like this:
    • -Signature Resolution: 400m OR 125m OR 25m
    -Tracking: 0.54 OR 0.696 OR 2.178
    -Optimal Range: 5250m+5000m OR 5250m+3000m OR 2625m+2000m
    The Vexor pilot has an (imo) unnecessarily messy job fitting and flying, and choosing engagements to reliably and consistently apply most of his/her damage and is likely, much of the time, to be losing most of the damage from one or more drone size

After the implementation of Drone Control Channels I would prefer to see a Vexor whose high-damage drone flight consists of Hammerhead IIs only - this does not prevent the Vexor pilot from fielding other drones as his/her fitting fancy finds. (as it happens a flight of Hammerhead IIs able to output 315dps from the current Vexor would consist of 6.5 drones - see 'clarification' above)
I wish for drone pilots to be able to achieve the same elegance and focus of engagement envelope and fitting philosophy that pilots of other weapon systems enjoy.

Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden
Aeryn Maricadie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-03-24 01:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Aeryn Maricadie
Tryaz wrote:
Here is a case study so that you can see in real terms what I am proposing. I would appreciate your feedback. I've also added this to the OP.

-CLARIFICATION- I don't want to begin a discussion about the stats or relative power of individual drones. (yet)

Case Study: some of you have been asking for an example of exactly what I might mean so I will attempt to oblige you. Let's compare the Vexor against the Thorax using the All Level V character on EFT [v2.27].

  • A naked Thorax equipped with 5x Heavy Neutron Blaster II with Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M outputs 318dps
  • A naked Vexor with a drone flight consisting of 2x Ogre II, 2x Hammerhead II and 1x Hobgoblin II outputs 315dps
    • - a fair comparison of the max damage brawling loadout of the turrets on a Hybrid ship against the drones on a Drone ship I trust you'll agree. My reason for suggesting the aforementioned changes is because of the following:

  • The engagement envelope of the Neutron Thorax looks like this:
    • -Signature Resolution: 125m
    -Tracking: 0.206
    -Optimal Range: 2250m + 6250m Falloff
    As long as the Thorax pilot can fit and fly to engage targets that fall within these parameters he/she can reasonably expect to consistently apply most of their damage.

  • The engagement envelope of the Vexor looks like this:
    • -Signature Resolution: 400m OR 125m OR 25m
    -Tracking: 0.54 OR 0.696 OR 2.178
    -Optimal Range: 5250m+5000m OR 5250m+3000m OR 2625m+2000m
    The Vexor pilot has an (imo) unnecessarily messy job fitting and flying, and choosing engagements to reliably and consistently apply most of his/her damage and is likely, much of the time, to be losing most of the damage from one or more drone size

After the inclusion of Drone Control Channels I would prefer to see a Vexor whose high-damage drone flight consists of Hammerhead IIs only - this does not prevent the Vexor pilot from fielding other drones as his/her fitting fancy finds. (as it happens a flight of Hammerhead IIs able to output 315dps from the current Vexor would consist of 6.5 drones - see 'clarification' above)
I wish for drone pilots to be able to achieve the same elegance and focus of engagement envelope and fitting philosophy that pilots of other weapons are allowed.

Wait, wait, wait. You started this thread because you think Gallente drone boats need a buff? Because asking for the same dps with better application is a buff. If you don't like launching multiple drone types no one is stopping you from launching five hammerheads. You certainly can't just compare raw dps between drones and turrets like that, that's like apples to potatoes man.

As far as drone balance in general, when there is a whole race of drone boats that is fairly well balanced, I don't think it is correct to say that drones are the problem because of an imbalance in another race or pirate faction ships.

Drone launch hotkey is needed too.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#28 - 2015-03-24 01:41:03 UTC
Give us an example where you choose 3x Ogre IIs.

Nothing is currently stopping you from fitting that. And from my understanding, nothing will prevent you from doing so with channels.
Tryaz
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2015-03-24 01:46:58 UTC
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
Wait, wait, wait. You started this thread because you think Gallente drone boats need a buff? Because asking for the same dps with better application is a buff. If you don't like launching multiple drone types no one is stopping you from launching five hammerheads. You certainly can't just compare raw dps between drones and turrets like that, that's like apples to potatoes man.

As far as drone balance in general, when there is a whole race of drone boats that is fairly well balanced, I don't think it is correct to say that drones are the problem because of an imbalance in another race or pirate faction ships.

Thanks for your continued interest in the thread Aeryn. I put my point of interest about the size of Hammerhead flight needed to obtain 315dps in brackets for a reason: the reason being that it's a point of interest only and not the thrust of my argument. I agree with you that in the case of the Vexor to improve damage application without lowering damage would have to be labelled as a buff.
I don't contend either that no one is stopping me from launching 5 Hammerhead IIs, many people do because of the gimpy application of the " " " "full damage" " " " flight. I just think that the design of hulls like the Vexor is inelegant and the OP is my suggestion for improving drones on all hulls.
Again: I chose the Vexor as a case study, please don't think my entire idea is for the Vexor.

Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
Drone launch hotkey is needed too.

+1 to this

Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden
Tryaz
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-03-24 01:53:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tryaz
Rawketsled wrote:
Give us an example where you choose 3x Ogre IIs.

Nothing is currently stopping you from fitting that. And from my understanding, nothing will prevent you from doing so with channels.


Except that 6.5 Medium Combat drones only requires 65m3 of bandwidth and so the Vexor's bandwidth would probably be reduced.

(please?) 3 x Ogre IIs
285dps
Signature Resolution: 400m
Tracking: 0.54 rad/sec
Optimal Range: 5250m+5000m Falloff

I think you raise an important point though. Nothing IS stopping me, except that I'll always get better damage out of 5 drones than I will out of 3.
JUST LIKE nothing is stopping me from using 3 Neutrons on the Thorax but I'll always get better damage out of 5 Electrons.

Do you see my point?

Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden
Aeryn Maricadie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2015-03-24 02:14:14 UTC
Medium drones do not need a buff, they trade less raw damage and the ability to overheat for the ability to project damage just as well from 55km as from 5km, they also have good application in general. They are balanced, the imbalances come from the Gallente ships that can fit far more drones than they ought to due to excessive bandwidth which makes them op.
Tryaz
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-03-24 02:15:47 UTC
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
Medium drones do not need a buff, they trade less raw damage and the ability to overheat for the ability to project damage just as well from 55km as from 5km, they also have good application in general. They are balanced, the imbalances come from the Gallente ships that can fit far more drones than they ought to due to excessive bandwidth which makes them op.

Good thing I'M NOT PROPOSING A BUFF TO MEDIUM DRONES THEN ISN'T IT!!!!!!!!!!

I mad bro

Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden
Tryaz
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-03-24 02:19:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tryaz
I'd initially wanted to ignore non-Combat drones as many of them have been in a funny place for some time but I have an idea for incorporating them in to my own Drone Control Channels idea and so I've added the following to the OP.

EXPANSION 02:11 2015/03/24
Only combat drones utilise a Drone Control Channel (just as only turrets/launchers use a hardpoint) this would allow for utility bandwidth to be used to launch 'extra' Combat Utility, Electronic Warfare, Logisitic, Salvage and Mining drones.

Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden
Aeryn Maricadie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2015-03-24 02:20:27 UTC
Tryaz wrote:
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
Medium drones do not need a buff, they trade less raw damage and the ability to overheat for the ability to project damage just as well from 55km as from 5km, they also have good application in general. They are balanced, the imbalances come from the Gallente ships that can fit far more drones than they ought to due to excessive bandwidth which makes them op.

Good thing I'M NOT PROPOSING A BUFF TO MEDIUM DRONES THEN ISN'T IT!!!!!!!!!!

I mad bro

You certainly seem to be why change it so you can launch more than 5 med drones otherwise? that is certainly what you seem to be after otherwise why mess with the mechanic?
Tryaz
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2015-03-24 02:21:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tryaz
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
Tryaz wrote:
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
Medium drones do not need a buff, they trade less raw damage and the ability to overheat for the ability to project damage just as well from 55km as from 5km, they also have good application in general. They are balanced, the imbalances come from the Gallente ships that can fit far more drones than they ought to due to excessive bandwidth which makes them op.

Good thing I'M NOT PROPOSING A BUFF TO MEDIUM DRONES THEN ISN'T IT!!!!!!!!!!

I mad bro

You certainly seem to be why change it so you can launch more than 5 med drones otherwise? that is certainly what you seem to be after otherwise why mess with the mechanic?

*facepalm* when you've finished exploring your own tangent and are willing to re-join the discussion I'll be pleased to speak to you again

Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden
Aeryn Maricadie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2015-03-24 03:14:48 UTC
Tryaz wrote:
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
Tryaz wrote:
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
Medium drones do not need a buff, they trade less raw damage and the ability to overheat for the ability to project damage just as well from 55km as from 5km, they also have good application in general. They are balanced, the imbalances come from the Gallente ships that can fit far more drones than they ought to due to excessive bandwidth which makes them op.

Good thing I'M NOT PROPOSING A BUFF TO MEDIUM DRONES THEN ISN'T IT!!!!!!!!!!

I mad bro

You certainly seem to be why change it so you can launch more than 5 med drones otherwise? that is certainly what you seem to be after otherwise why mess with the mechanic?

*facepalm* when you've finished exploring your own tangent and are willing to re-join the discussion I'll be pleased to speak to you again

Your proposed rebalance is to fix the part of the drones that ain't broke. These "channels" would perform the exact same function as bandwidth, except they would take up the high slots effectively nerfing the platform overall. So why?

you complained about inelegance and weird fittings, how will adding a bunch of more modules help that?
Tryaz
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-03-24 03:44:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tryaz
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
Your proposed rebalance is to fix the part of the drones that ain't broke. These "channels" would perform the exact same function as bandwidth, except they would take up the high slots effectively nerfing the platform overall. So why?

you complained about inelegance and weird fittings, how will adding a bunch of more modules help that?


Read through everything I've written on this thread and you won't find a SINGLE suggestion for a new module of any kind...

what is the point?!

Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2015-03-24 06:22:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tusker Crazinski
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
This would basically destroy most drone boats. Remember Gallente isn't the only faction that uses drones, just because Ishtars are OP doesn't mean drones in general are.


they are, if not ishtar's it'll be domies and VNI, if not domies then guristas.... all of them, if not guristas than.

Now I know the alliance tourney is not a good metric for game balance, but the fact that last year theres was all but 4-5 setups that didn't use drones for DPS speaks volumes about how strong they are in the current state of the game.

and It was not just ishtars and seturies. VNIs, Gilas, Dominii, Eosii, were all just as bad.


There's a bunch of Amarr boats that would be messed up real bad by this proposal.


was in a hurry, but I should have stated I am not in favor of this proposal however it is in the right direction.

right now drone boats enjoy the benefit of having no fitting requirements for their weapon system, on weapon system that is already unparalleled in flexibility, requires no cap or ammo, dose more raw DPS for anything smaller than a battleship, and is just as effective at 100 meters to 100 kilometers.

yes drone boats lose some PG and AN SLOT to compensate however long range turrets in many cases require ALL or MORE of your PG to fit.

not only that generally drone boats are low on highs, and distribute those to mids and lows.
Tryaz
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-03-24 10:21:11 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
was in a hurry, but I should have stated I am not in favor of this proposal however it is in the right direction.

right now drone boats enjoy the benefit of having no fitting requirements for their weapon system, on weapon system that is already unparalleled in flexibility, requires no cap or ammo, dose more raw DPS for anything smaller than a battleship, and is just as effective at 100 meters to 100 kilometers.

yes drone boats lose some PG and AN SLOT to compensate however long range turrets in many cases require ALL or MORE of your PG to fit.

not only that generally drone boats are low on highs, and distribute those to mids and lows.


Interesting: I might agree with you. What about the fact that drone damage can be easily mitigated by destroying drones, does that not de-power them significantly?

Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden
El Creepo
Therapy.
Brave Collective
#40 - 2015-03-24 10:25:42 UTC
Your description of drones makes them sound magical. Overlooking their destruction, immobility and being left in space. Drones are their own ammo.

You could flip that round and say turrets are an indestructible weapon system that has no effect on the velocity and mobility of your ship and always zero time from activation to damage application. Turrets need a nerf, theyre so powerful! All weapon systems are pretty well balanced, ishtars just need a wee look. I wonder if its not possible to fix just by increasing the bandwidth of sentries to 40 and battleship bandwidth to 200 meaning Ishtars could still have all the mobile drones they have but would be limited to 3 sentries each. The only concern I see there would be the Gecko but a trait of "maximum of 2 can be controlled at a time" would fix that.
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