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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[New structures] Mooring and docking features

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Author
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#21 - 2015-03-23 14:49:05 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Moored ships should not appear on D-Scan. Smile


Unlikely since currently you can see capitals inside pos shields with a d-scan currently and observation arrays [perhaps] and d-scan inhibitor modules are designed to hide things from d-scan.

A dedicated docking array with no mooring allowed at other structures I think would be preferable, then you can anchor docking arrays alongside other structures and close to other structures, to get that building a space port base feel. Anchor as many docking arrays as you feel is necessary. A limit to how many arrays a player could anchor in space could equal 5 maybe?
Ben Ishikela
#22 - 2015-03-23 15:12:19 UTC
I would like to vote for:
.no mooring.

to compensate for supercapitals:
Let them switch mode to structure/invulnerabilityToDps&reinforceble/entosis mode, when the pilot decides it or leaves his commandpost on that ship. That pilot can now use the fitted station services of his own supercapital or undock from his supercap in a subcap.
They are as big as F*ing stations! Why do they want to dock/beSafe somewhere if they just could employ the same or better safety-capabilities as these XL structures themselfes!
When a pilot enters his seat on the super again or switches mode to "ship", he is vulnerable by dps again. (capture progress and HP have to be related somehow obviously).
Also build these supers in space for everyone to see and come to play with. content for everyone, yay!

for "normal" capitals: docking seems ok to me. (but no docking in supers... o_0).
Maybe make unique XXL stations and only those can assemble / be docked by "normal" capitals.

==> now that i think of moving/jumping stations. this might be great for nomadic living, as is described about the Thukkers, yes? (the minmatar carriers are shaped like barn roof. shurely this has to have a say somehow)

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.

1Robert McNamara1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2015-03-23 15:15:44 UTC
I think Mooring can be attractive if it improves other quality of life issues.

POS shields are nice because they provide a safe place for supers to stage and do their work. Logging off makes gathering intel harder, and that balance feels good. I can know what system a given pilot is in, provided I've learned through observation, research, or spycraft that they are a super holding alt or a super pilot. Location Agents don't tell me precise location within a system however.

Mooring could show just the hulls moored (no pilot name, just ship name), or just the active ships, maybe not even an accurate number as RL harbors have ways of covering and obscuring accurate numbers. Perhaps groups choose between more mooring capacity or more hidden assets.

I'd really like if a moored super cap could be ejected from and the pilot feel safe in leaving that ship. Spaceship coffins are currently a bad barrier to entry. I get it, they can't dock for insurance/reprocessing and other balance concerns but surely holding alts and character prisons were not the intention of the ships, at the very least it's not fun game-play and requires players to game the system rather than enjoy the game.

A moored super should be able to access corp hangars/fitting services and those sorts of things from the structure they're tied to. That same structure should be dock able for sup-caps and caps. Today feeding supers is a laborious task of trucking up goods, staging them in an outpost, shuttling them to a POS... Let's take this opportunity to remove this unnecessary middle step. It's unnecessary due to the relative safety of feeding supers via this method, so it's not a conflict driver, and the amount of headache it creates to group logistics.

A moored ship must be able to rep themselves.

Bridging: This must remain a possibility. interdicting a bridging titan today takes coordination, timing, and sacrifice, that should remain true, and remain possible. Perhaps the L and XL structures have the mooring point be somewhat interior to the structure so there's a physical barrier that needs to be navigated. Bridging should be possible while moored. Otherwise it will not be worth the risk and a huge segment of end-game capability will be 'risked out of the game.'
Literally Space Moses
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2015-03-23 15:16:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Literally Space Moses
Why would a supercap pilot ever moor their ship? I mean currently there are ways to store supercaps but no one uses them because it's not safe.

Outside of the biggest alliances, mooring a super is just asking to get it killed. You're a sitting duck, especially in null where you could just bubble the structure to hell and back. Either the person logs in and loses his super, or doesnt log in and loses his super. Compare this to a holding alt, where you just keep it logged off and never have to worry about your super being gone when you check back in.

This makes having a super and being part of a small group (aka not a 50k man coalition) orders of magniture more risky. Right now you can log into a pos and know you'll be safe. After this patch, you can't ever log on and feel safe.You have no pos shield protection, so you log in and if you get jumped you can moor, essentially delaying the inevitable, or die.

#T2013

Kalaratiri
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#25 - 2015-03-23 15:18:13 UTC
Have unmooring give the same 30s (60?) invul timer as undocking.

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim

Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#26 - 2015-03-23 15:19:03 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:

I'm actually of the opinion that the intelligence is fine. yes dscan will be spammed with hundreds of moored supers and capitals. The only thing I would suggest is that dscan show whether a super or cap is moored or not (probably too powerful, but there needs to be a way to filter the intel a little. We have this issue in wspace whenever someone has all their capitals just floating in a pos (its spam, we know they aren't running, and yes they are all unmanned. Its a bit spammy and hard to filter out.


There already is a way to filter them - the Mark I eyeball. In use for gathering accurate intel since 5000 BC.


Except now we'll have to combat probe them down. If it was solely at a warpable celestial, fine.

It won't be though.

Yaay!!!!

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#27 - 2015-03-23 15:23:54 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
Somatic Neuron wrote:

So, are we going to get assignable fighters again once this comes in?


Fighters will still be assignable after Scylla - you just have to actually put the carrier in harm's way to do it.
Seems fair to me.


Assist (and defend) is far from the same mechanic as assignment was off grid or on grid.
Joran Sothos
H.E.L.P.e.R
#28 - 2015-03-23 15:23:56 UTC
I live in wormhole space.

The problem of intelligence is key.

Currently, supers cannot dock with an SMA of any size, so they are either always in space and visible, or logged off. Mooring doesn't affect them.

Capitals, though, CAN currently dock. Forcing them to stay out in space where they can be scanned is a HUGE boost to intel gathering (wormhole space or not).

I don't see why changing poses and how they work should penalize us. We should still be able to do after the patch what we can do before the patch.

Right now, there aren't a lot (any) details, so it's hard to give comments other than at the macro level. Show us some stats, and we can give better feedback.
Awulf
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2015-03-23 15:26:16 UTC
Quote:
Moored ships should not appear on D-Scan. Smile

I +1 this idea.
You want to know whats currently moored? Get your eyeballs on it.
This way when someone sees supers/caps on d-scan they know that are active and not currently moored.

Seems the idea of moorings is so that people can leave their super coffins as if they had just docked inside a station. If that were the case you wouldn't seem them on d-scan anyway.
Literally Space Moses
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2015-03-23 15:26:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Literally Space Moses
Joran Sothos wrote:

Currently, supers cannot dock with an SMA of any size, so they are either always in space and visible, or logged off. Mooring doesn't affect them.


Supers and titans can dock in CSMAs currently, so might want to rethink that point.

#T2013

Lugh Crow-Slave
#31 - 2015-03-23 15:27:24 UTC
Ulrik Elristan wrote:
As a regular scout in w-space, I can only emphasize again Enta's point : removing this huge intel tool will be incredibly detrimental.

Maybe a half way meet between removing the full power of d-scan while allowing us at least some intel would be to have the possibility to see who and what is in the station once you're on grid with it.

A second concern I would have is timers : how do you intend to deal with the unavoidable station games that will come out of this ? As it is today, once you're out of the forcefield it is possible to bump you and keep you away. The way docking works, it will be much harder to get somebody out of docking range, and thus decrease the risk of undocking in a shiny ship.


considering they also want to add intel gathering deployables i think they can manage to find a balance at the same time you can see how active a structure has been based on its animation perhaps they can add to this by ensuring there is an animation only active when a player is docked


something like the docking bay light is on
1Robert McNamara1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2015-03-23 15:28:19 UTC
Literally Space Moses wrote:
Supers and titans can dock in CSMAs currently, so might want to rethink that point.


But only if their fitting is in their cargo hold, correct?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#33 - 2015-03-23 15:31:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Joran Sothos wrote:
I live in wormhole space.

The problem of intelligence is key.

Currently, supers cannot dock with an SMA of any size, so they are either always in space and visible, or logged off. Mooring doesn't affect them.

Capitals, though, CAN currently dock. Forcing them to stay out in space where they can be scanned is a HUGE boost to intel gathering (wormhole space or not).

I don't see why changing poses and how they work should penalize us. We should still be able to do after the patch what we can do before the patch.

Right now, there aren't a lot (any) details, so it's hard to give comments other than at the macro level. Show us some stats, and we can give better feedback.


I have lived in WH space for years you see this as penalizing us to be honest i see it as a new chalange and a change to the landscape WHs have gotten stale this will spice it up.


if this would put one group at more of a disadvantage than another then yes it would be a problem but it doesn't


if anything this can help to promote fights in lower class holes as i will know i'm not going to get 3 triage carriers warping in on me mid fight

at the same time it can make having caps riskier so if you don't need them groups may not build as many
Literally Space Moses
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2015-03-23 15:32:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Literally Space Moses
1Robert McNamara1 wrote:
Literally Space Moses wrote:
Supers and titans can dock in CSMAs currently, so might want to rethink that point.


But only if their fitting is in their cargo hold, correct?


Same rules as say carriers or dreads stored in other SMAs. You can be fit, but stuff other than ammo in the cargo is a no-go, etc. Just no one does it because it's massively unsafe.

#T2013

Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#35 - 2015-03-23 15:33:34 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:




  • Having (super)capitals visible from space, even if invulnerable to direct assault, is going a huge intelligence boost to opposing forces.
  • Having (super)capitals traceable in such a manner could allow third parties to ambush (super)capital pilots as soon as they remove moorings to destroy the ships before they can escape.
  • Having a fixed mooring capability on those structures will create problems if the structure mooring capability is full when another (super)capital pilot tries to use it under pressure.




Make supers cloaked when they "Moor" = no free intel.

CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#36 - 2015-03-23 15:38:06 UTC
Another element i want to throw in here is the idea of soft mooring which works a bit like the current POS shield so you can still move around and use dscan etc within range of the structure but you cannot target anything and you are invulnerable.

It is basically an area invulnerability effect around the station like a remote rep or similar. It allows you to warp to 0 or undock into relative safety.

You can of course be bumped unless you do a hard mooring or dock up.

Thoughts?

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#37 - 2015-03-23 15:39:27 UTC
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:




  • Having (super)capitals visible from space, even if invulnerable to direct assault, is going a huge intelligence boost to opposing forces.
  • Having (super)capitals traceable in such a manner could allow third parties to ambush (super)capital pilots as soon as they remove moorings to destroy the ships before they can escape.
  • Having a fixed mooring capability on those structures will create problems if the structure mooring capability is full when another (super)capital pilot tries to use it under pressure.




Make supers cloaked when they "Moor" = no free intel.



This is effectively just docking supers, protection with no intel is the same as docking, but maybe it's time to allow that?

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

1Robert McNamara1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2015-03-23 15:40:36 UTC
Literally Space Moses wrote:
1Robert McNamara1 wrote:
Literally Space Moses wrote:
Supers and titans can dock in CSMAs currently, so might want to rethink that point.


But only if their fitting is in their cargo hold, correct?


Same rules as say carriers or dreads stored in other SMAs. You can be fit, but stuff other than ammo in the cargo is a no-go, etc. Just no one does it because it's massively unsafe.


Thanks for clearing that up. I read a fierce exchange on reddit that emphatically claimed it was impossible to put a fit super into a CSMA. I hate the idea of flying a space coffin so have no direct experience.
Awulf
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2015-03-23 15:42:44 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Another element i want to throw in here is the idea of soft mooring which works a bit like the current POS shield so you can still move around and use dscan etc within range of the structure but you cannot target anything and you are invulnerable.

It is basically an area invulnerability effect around the station like a remote rep or similar. It allows you to warp to 0 or undock into relative safety.

You can of course be bumped unless you do a hard mooring or dock up.

Thoughts?

I see that as a doable option.
Still think hard mooring should not be on d-scan while soft mooring would show on d-scan.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#40 - 2015-03-23 15:46:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
I'll repost what I put in the main thread:

I have a bit of a love/worry relationship with the mooring mechanics. It is definitely cool, and I am very for it, but what happens to a "moored" Supercap when you log out? Does it stay there? If so, this adds a lot more danger to Supercap ownership (not intrinsically a bad thing, but it does), but if not, what happens when you log back in, since someone else could be on your mooring spot when you log back in? Plus, Supercap accounts are quite notorious for being left unsubbed for long periods between wars, so does an unsubbed Supercap have to stay moored, or just get stuck chancing it by logging out at a safe spot? If so, again, that is a lot more danger of loss, plus there is going to be vast farms of towers serving as unsubbed mooring.

Personally, I'm all for more risk to Supercaps, and limiting the number in space by the amount of room to moor them is definitely an intresting approach. But there is a hell of a lot in space at the moment, and a move over to this could have quite some growing pains. Especially given how Supercaps are being given the finger by the sov changes, and that the current utterances about Supercap changes are leaving people fairly lukewarm, removing safety from those logged-off or unsubscribed could be a final tipping point for many.