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Medium Drones damage application on Frigates.

Author
Mr Spaxi
#61 - 2015-02-11 19:56:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Spaxi
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Mr Spaxi wrote:
Drones die and they do not have even close DPS to the 'real weapon' equivalents, unless we are talking about hard-bonused ships like a Gila. Also, they are a lot easier to tank than any other weapon system, just because their DPS mark is a lot lower than other weapons. You have a choice in every fight vs. a drone boat - in most of the cases, I know I'll out DPS it and go straight for it; in other cases, I'll have to kill the drones. All they do is add variety to a wonderful game, and there's no issue about it. Where are the people complaining about my Incursus pushing 300 dps while a same priced Tristan can get... 200 while being severely undertanked?

200 dps tristan? is it blaster fit can you share this fit?
If I'm not mistaken x2 DDA tristan(no guns) get around 150 dps with hobs, 125mm rail tristan get around 180 dps and have decent enough tank.


From the top of my head: http://gyazo.com/93965f6d92ae25fa1e648dfa29d233e7

Swap DDA for DC II if you want more tank.
Aeryn Atropos
ISSD Holdings
#62 - 2015-03-15 17:42:56 UTC
Fallen Khanid King wrote:
Hi,

I would like to discuss the Medium Drones damage application on smaller targets, especially frigates.
Earlier today I tackled a Rail Vexor (which has NO bonuses to the tracking of drones).
This is some of the damage he did to me ; I was not webbed and had no MWD fitted so I was basically on the perfect position to avoid a larger weapon system damage. However, since it's drones, they were having almost no issues to track me.

http://i.imgur.com/8BRUnge.png

Even 180s autocannons (which I believe have the best tracking of all med sized turrets) would have trouble hitting an ABing frigate orbiting close. Now why, on top of having somewhat selectable damage, excellent projection, capless usage, why are drones being able to hit a small target like that so efficiently ?

Just to make it clear ; I don't mind the loss of my ship, it was a cheap tackle frigate, it's meant to die anyways (and we killed the Vexor, yay!). This is not me ranting cause I lost a ship. This is a legitimate question about game balance.

The way the weapon systems works in this game, as a small frigate you can avoid most of the damage from a bigger hull by outspeed his tracking, or in the case of heavy missiles by just keeping your speed up and your signature radius low.

I don't get why, on an unwebbed, ABing fast frigate, medium drones coming from an unbonused (in terms of tracking) hull, should hit that well their target. You already have light scout drones to do this job. Why would med drones can do the same job as light drones ? Imagine i wasn't fighting a Vexor but a VNI which has bonuses to drones tracking ? AND if I was webbed on top of that ? Then I would assume med drones would just hit me almost perfectly.
For any other weapon system, to hit a frigate orbiting close, you'd have to have the target dual webbed and/or having target painters for missiles, but why would you bother if you can just launch drones ?

What are you thoughts about this ?

First thing you need to remember is that drones shoot at you using the same formula as anything else, meaning that what matters is your transversal vs the drones not the enemy ship (the enemy ship is likely shooting at you too but it's weapon systems are usually significantly less potent if it is a true drone boat). The upshot of this is if you are going so fast that the drones are chasing you instead of orbiting you have little transversal against them. Always remember that even a dread can hit a frigate that has little to no transversal.

That said drones do indeed have the best damage application, this makes up for the fact that they have the lowest raw dps and cannot be overheated (which is huge) among other shortcomings such as travel time and destructibility, you can negate a large portion of the drones damage by speed/sig tanking but you should not expect to avoid all damage like you could against other systems. Drone boats are basically similar to RLML/RHML cruisers/battleships if using normal drones (good application for respective class but lower overall dps), and sentry drones are essentially turrets but deployed to a fixed location.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2015-03-15 18:18:41 UTC
ValentinaDLM wrote:
Drones have the disadvantage of being destroyable, and also have to mwd to target and have travel time, etc. if med drones were statisticaly similar to 180mm ACs what would be the point in taking the disadvantages of the weapon system?



no fitting, no cap, no slots, no ammo, little need for range control, absurd DPS, and not really the case for the vexor but many drones boats can have multiple full flights of every size so they apply good damage to every class of ship they come across.

just to name a few.
Aeryn Atropos
ISSD Holdings
#64 - 2015-03-15 18:32:13 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:


You don't think it's odd to use bandwidth as a balancing mechanic when bandwidth is only a measure of how many drones can be used and nothing else?

I mean, you brick tank drone ships as your CPU/PG permits, then bandwidth gives you extra leeway and allows you to put stuff that deals damage practically free of charge. (c) Triple tanking Tristans.

Or fit utility into what is essentially 2-4 utility highs (c) Every Drone ship that just goes with neuts instead of guns.

You can't speed tank them unless you simply outrun them - has been demonstrated on the previous page where it was shown that moving away from them is actually worse than standing still. Which is contradictory to the strategy you would take against the actual ship that launched them. Is it not obvious that in this case, drone ships have all flanks covered?


1 bandwidth as a balancing mechanic is meant to limit number of drones ships can deploy similar to slots on said ship, many non drone boats also get drones they just don't do as much because they aren't bonused. But guess what? the high slots on drone boats are rarely bonused either they are usually **** on a pig, or neuts (which can be effective but are very hard to fit/use properly)

2 Speed tanking does help you just cant do it while orbiting, if you outrun the drones they will fall behind and miss, then kick on their mwd to catch up then hit. essentially they will entirely miss half the time. Doing this also makes them as easy to hit as they hit you.

3 Drone's niche is that they apply the best damage but do less damage overall this gulf is especially significant when you account for the lack of ability to overheat drones. So if you go against a drone boat in a ship that relies on avoiding damage rather than tanking it, you are in fact failing to choose the correct ship for the job.

4 the only ships that are truly ridiculous with drones are the pirate factions which are meant to be game breaking op. The Gallente ships are also powerful with drones because that is one of the Gallente's primary weapon systems!
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#65 - 2015-03-15 22:27:36 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
I've said in another thread that the Ishtar needs a full heavy flight bay reduction.

The same as when you fight sn Ishtar you fight the Worm. You figure out what they are fielding and what their prop is. A mwd worm will obviously have a smaller tank and possibly no highs. Thank goodness for geno's that make predictions a failure. That being said, it was a blind engagement. I managed to pull range, saw the flight of t2 Hobs, and (through great advice from a better pilot, who convinced me their drones were killable) decided to attempt to hold point while my acolytes hit my target and while I tried to clear drones.

To say I had the paper to scissors with a kite fit shows how much you know about fighting drone ships. Your strategy primarily should be against the drones, secondly against the ship. So, unless I'm wrong (as you seem to believe), drones are often quite faster than an orbiting MWD Comet. This is what I mean by saying force drones to stop and chase. They will mwd to you, hit you once and begin their normal orbit speed and then repeat. This is also why I was in hull.

::edited out pretentious bs::


Usually when fighting in frigate vs frigate fights - unless I am activate tanked and they are low dps or they are kiting me. Then I will ignore their drones and go for the throat. Otherwise it takes me just as long to kill the drones as their ship.

Most worms are kite fit and as such would be going 6000m/s throwing drones on you, shooting missiles and then pussying out the moment they might get tackled. A brawl worm is actually unusual and deserves to die.
Pestilen Ratte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2015-03-16 00:28:59 UTC
Here is the thing: be honest about the feeling you get when you strap on a Worm or Gila.

You know the ship is OP. You know how much it costs. You know that if you pilot it wrong, you will likely be killed by something that costs 5% of your ship. You know that everyone else will cheer when you die.

The bottom line is that OP faction ships are an admission of degeneracy and an enduring badge of shame. All who fly them must deal with the knowledge that they are ridiculous people, acting without honour.

The only exception to this is entire fleets of faction ships, where large numbers of hard core pilots go out to deliberately attract a blob and die in a hail of fire. This has much honour. I have never seen it, but if it did happen, it would have much honour.

You can do what you like in Eve, for relatively little real world cost, but you cannot hide your true character. Cowards who hunt bears in snaked Garmurs will always be bear murdering cowards. The pen, having wit, moves on.

Real men hull tank in derptrons, and that is all there is to it.

Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#67 - 2015-03-16 03:29:11 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Leokokim wrote:
This thread is too gold to not join in!

Oreb Wing wrote:
1)We killed a great fitted Worm without any losses


> rocket, ab, brawling worm. I lol'd.


And for the main topic of this thread:

Yes drones are hilariously op. So the solution? Wait for the nerf and until then, fly drone boats. Kinda obvious...

Also I like how people complain about the application of Hammerheads on a Vexor.
I guess you guys have not experienced DNC Gilas yet...


I baited a mission running Gila into aggressing me. And had my AB fit armor tanked Retribution with ~70% thermal resist promptly nuked by hammerhead II's. Which are supposed to have the lowest tracking of the four. Hardly even time for a "WTF."



Don't **** with the Gila. Pretend it is the Jesus.
Lister Vindaloo
5 Tons of Flax
#68 - 2015-03-19 12:05:04 UTC
You should be fighting the drones not the ship, your tight orbit made it easy for them, you can't fight drone boats using the tactics you would against turret or missile boats, there are plenty of ideas in this thread already for how to alter your tactics..... I've lost enough drones and their ships to know they are not an 'I win' button
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#69 - 2015-03-19 14:26:18 UTC
Pestilen Ratte wrote:
Here is the thing: be honest about the feeling you get when you strap on a Worm or Gila.

You know the ship is OP. You know how much it costs. You know that if you pilot it wrong, you will likely be killed by something that costs 5% of your ship. You know that everyone else will cheer when you die.

The bottom line is that OP faction ships are an admission of degeneracy and an enduring badge of shame. All who fly them must deal with the knowledge that they are ridiculous people, acting without honour.

The only exception to this is entire fleets of faction ships, where large numbers of hard core pilots go out to deliberately attract a blob and die in a hail of fire. This has much honour. I have never seen it, but if it did happen, it would have much honour.

You can do what you like in Eve, for relatively little real world cost, but you cannot hide your true character. Cowards who hunt bears in snaked Garmurs will always be bear murdering cowards. The pen, having wit, moves on.

Real men hull tank in derptrons, and that is all there is to it.



Honor? People who pvp have honor? That's news to me!
Artuard Envien
Space-Brewery-Association
#70 - 2015-03-20 15:43:27 UTC
Pestilen Ratte wrote:
Here is the thing: be honest about the feeling you get when you strap on a Worm or Gila.

You know the ship is OP. You know how much it costs. You know that if you pilot it wrong, you will likely be killed by something that costs 5% of your ship. You know that everyone else will cheer when you die.

The bottom line is that OP faction ships are an admission of degeneracy and an enduring badge of shame. All who fly them must deal with the knowledge that they are ridiculous people, acting without honour.

The only exception to this is entire fleets of faction ships, where large numbers of hard core pilots go out to deliberately attract a blob and die in a hail of fire. This has much honour. I have never seen it, but if it did happen, it would have much honour.

You can do what you like in Eve, for relatively little real world cost, but you cannot hide your true character. Cowards who hunt bears in snaked Garmurs will always be bear murdering cowards. The pen, having wit, moves on.

Real men hull tank in derptrons, and that is all there is to it.




Show me, on this doll o<-< where did the bad garmur touch you :-)