Player Features and Ideas Discussion

ding - exactly, the issue is bigger and partially revolves around force projection, not a covert 1v1'ing anybody (that is the exception, not the rule).

Assets in space being at risk is the primary theme, followed by force projection. Local is a tertiary distraction.

More truths, which are universal, regardless of the other ships in space.

All of the above = asset in space not at risk that can project an almost limitless amount of force virtually instantaneously.

Exactly.

If I am successfully ratting with a buddy or two in a sanctum and we are all in PvP fit ishtars, I don't give a fracking sheet that you are sitting cloaked in system. In fact, I might very well be hoping you'll decloak and bring in your buddies.

Please don't respond with, "Oh, we'll bring enough to kill you." Fine. I don't care. Maybe you will, or maybe you wont. My point still stands, in PvP fit ships I'm LOOKING FOR THE FIGHT. Maybe you do have too many buddies for me and my friends, but that is NOT the point.

And if you are AFK cloaking, we still wont give a fracking sheet and we'll clean up a number of anomalies, and if were lucky an escalation and pick up some nice isk/loot. Totally circumventing your attempt to deny us resources/isk.

Nor are you at risk either so long as the above points hold.

How much DPS does a cloaked ship do?

I know the answer will not be forth coming, so lets just say that question was rhetorical and I'll go ahead answer: zero. None, nada, zilch, zip, goose egg, null. No other module can be activated when the cloak is active.

I know where this is going. It is going right down the crapper into "Its the bad cynos!" But in any serious risk analysis one has to ask this key question:

How likely are you to be dropped? Are you more or less likely to be dropped in a post pheobe state? Intuition tells me it is less. The nerf to jump drives has made PvE safer--i.e. risk is reduced. Especially considering that nowadays many null sec entities prefer to have their pilots keep fatigue minimized. So you can drop 1x ever 35-40 minutes.

Since when has this been the case? The topic is about the game play style of "AFK Cloaking". That doesnt just apply to PVE ships. It can apply to PVP ships as well.

You are ignoring the fact that a pilot can just go AFK while cloaked and will be in near perfect safety. This is an aspect of AFK cloaking and it doesnt have to deal with sov or anything.

You are correct it does apply to PVE ships but there is more too it.

Are you sure we don't need to look at core competencies to get buy from interested parties and protect various swim lanes. Also, isn't it crucial to empower stakeholders so that we can move the needle and ensure that we use best practices that are consistent with our core values?

When you remove the aspects involved with:
Local chat
PvE hulls
Sov null

What you are left with are:
1. Fringe elements, often players who needed to step away from the game in order to deal with real life needs. Cloaking in this context is an alternative to logging out / docking in an Outpost, or parking in a POS.
This option gets used frequently when located where opposing players are expected. This has great value, as when the players again resume activity, they are creating desirable content for other players.
2. Players synchronizing in contested areas in order to launch an assault, who need to delay activity until all required members are prepared.

All of which, are highly desirable to keep intact, as it is a benefit to overall gameplay.

I feel we should not be interested in some grand bargain, where we compromise existing gameplay options in order to declare that the cloak is now compromised, while the sov structures such as an Outpost or POS remain as intact means to safely stay logged in while AFK.

I believe it is quite clear, that the main thing that would accomplish is strengthening sov holding entities, which are quite strong enough already, thank you very much.
Added to which, smaller groups, who often rely on stealth elements for supporting their strategies, will be further diminished in ability to harass larger groups.

Cloaking in general is just fine, for our sanctioned goal.
We are here to address AFK Cloaking, where it has a game altering impact, not simply failing to meet the standards set by a group who question cloaking in general.

To address the last several posts let me present this scenario.

System A is being contested by N3. The Goons also wish to take control of system A. If I was either one of these factions I would plant a covert ops ship in that system and just leave it there. I can collect all the information I need while I am active. I can warp around, gather information, disrupt basic operations, etc etc etc. However when I am ready to walk away OR if I feel threatened in the least, I just sit in a safe spot and watch, all from the comfort of my cloak.

Now both sides can do that. So you have invincible scout ships, flying around collecting battle data and when they are done, they just safe up and sit there.

From a strategic stand point this is a huge flaw in game play. Not only is it impossible for me to move assets without them being noticed, I cant even form a fleet without advertising to my enemy what exactly I am bringing. There is absolutely no surprise, or even any tactics to the battle. It comes down to who has the larger fleet. This is counter to everything CCP wants, which has been explained by their new suggestions on SOV mechanics. They want to spread out the battles. Well what is the point?

So on one hand you have a very legit style of game play. Using a covops asset to gather information. However the issue at the moment is that this asset has very little in the way of counters. Outside of a permacamp at all gates with smart bombing battleships, its likely a covops will make it into system. Once in system, its game over. You will never force them out till they play their hand.

This is AFK cloaking and just a valid as issue as the one that mining/ratting players bring up. This is one of my biggest issues with AFK cloaking. You are taking a very legit use of a covops ship and bastardizing its use by simply exploiting a broken mechanic.

This event happens far more than people are willing to admit. Please dont ask for proof. Any player that has been involved in SOV warfare knows that there is always a camper in a system before a battle. Could be an hour, could be weeks.

This scenario would exist with or without local. If local didnt exist and cloak worked the same, null would grind to a halt. However the inverse is not the case. If cloak was changed without modifying local, situations like what I posted above would become a lot more interesting.

And no I am not suggesting that cloak change and local stay the same. I have already stated what I think would be a valid suggestion for the situation. Just pointing out that isnt just a local or PVE issue.

Disrupt operations how? With a ship with a covert ops cloak you will do damn little for the most part. Most players will be in PvP fit ships. Most players will be in fleets....maybe even BIG fleets when they are undocked.

At best you might catch the occasional straggler doing something dumb. But that will disrupt very little. I know, I've been in this situation numerous times and it pretty much stops nothing having a few reds in system because if that were the case than all invasions would grind to an immediate halt. This has not happened so it is a non-issue.



Yep, and both sides can do (and do) it so its...gasp....balanced.



With spies, covert cloaking ships, and the fact that timers or visible anywhere on your overview in a system with said timer and the organization of most major null sec alliances nerfing cloaks will change pretty much nothing.

Nerfing cloaks is not going to stop people from trying to bring more numbers.



No. No, no, no. No! It is not AFK cloaking or play because an AFK cloaked ship/player has never ever gathered intel. Only active players gather intel.

Even if you nerf cloaks so they are only effective with active players here is the new meta:

Cloaky scout gets into system. Sets up a safe...preferably one outside d-scan range a station if there is one. Do your active scouting reporting stuff. If nothing there is nothing to report maybe hang out for a bit setting up bookmarks, then go back to your initial safe and log out. When pings go out for a scout, log back in if you are available, activate cloak, start your intel gathering.

You. Have. Changed. Nothing.

I'm going to stop there because at this point I have to wonder if you have ever been involved in a major block level war.

lol, one time in a million a trend does not make ;)