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Devs - please clarify the effect of an OWNER using an Entosis link
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SoCal Stoli Rotsuda
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-03-15 21:03:26 UTC
Per Fozzie's original post:

"The Entosis Link is used for all kinds of manipulation of these structures. In general, activating an Entosis Link on a structure you own will activate and protect it, while activating an Entosis Link on a structure you do not own will disable, reinforce or capture it."

If an owner "activates and protects" a structure during the vulnerability period, by completing a cycle with their own Entosis link, is the structure then rendered invulnerable to capture until the next day's vulnerability period?
SoCal Stoli Rotsuda
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2 - 2015-03-16 12:39:31 UTC
Can anyone ID a source where the devs might have answered this question?
Memphis Baas
#3 - 2015-03-16 12:54:16 UTC
From the dev blog, a defender activating an entosis link will PAUSE the capture process, thereby countering any number of attacker entosis links. The attackers must destroy the defender link in order to continue the capture process.

If the structure is vulnerable and only defenders are in the area activating links (I'm guessing on the random nodes that appear in the constellation), then yes the structure keeps sov and goes invulnerable and the whole capture process must be started again.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2015-03-16 13:27:24 UTC
I don't think it was ever explicitly explained, but I'd imagine that activating an E-link on a structure you own won't have any effect at all except to prevent an attacker from starting a capture cycle until your E-link is removed. I doubt that running a cycle on your structures will negate the four hour window.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2015-03-16 14:15:44 UTC
If an owner activates a link on a structure during the vulnerability period, the structure is then rendered invulnerable to capture until for as long as a defending link is active. If the defending ship cancels the link, loses lock, is blown up, or anything else to disrupt the connection, the structure immediately becomes vulnerable as normal (assuming no other defending links are active on it).
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2015-03-16 14:56:42 UTC
still wodnering why utility high ships needed such an arbitrary boost, sicne its a high slot any other ships have to gimp themselves to fit it, but not utility boats. (though CCP will liekly just start removing turrets/launchers from everything so EVERYTHING has a utility high, because why diversify ship lines, too hard to balance)
SoCal Stoli Rotsuda
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-03-16 20:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: SoCal Stoli Rotsuda
Memphis Baas wrote:
From the dev blog, a defender activating an entosis link will PAUSE the capture process, thereby countering any number of attacker entosis links. The attackers must destroy the defender link in order to continue the capture process.

If the structure is vulnerable and only defenders are in the area activating links (I'm guessing on the random nodes that appear in the constellation), then yes the structure keeps sov and goes invulnerable and the whole capture process must be started again.



Understood that part, but it only applies to when an attacker has a link up on the structure, as well. As soon as one link is broken, progress continues on activating the other link, whether it be the owner's or an attacker's.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#8 - 2015-03-16 20:09:14 UTC
It's a design document on something six months away. All the details aren't 100% nailed down.
However you can be pretty sure that you can't skip the 4 hour window by putting a link on it right at the start if they go with the current design.
By 'protect' they mean if they link is active, you will stop any progress towards capture and reverse any progress that was made if you blow the other guy up or force him off grid also.
SoCal Stoli Rotsuda
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#9 - 2015-03-16 20:20:14 UTC  |  Edited by: SoCal Stoli Rotsuda
xttz wrote:
If an owner activates a link on a structure during the vulnerability period, the structure is then rendered invulnerable to capture until for as long as a defending link is active. If the defending ship cancels the link, loses lock, is blown up, or anything else to disrupt the connection, the structure immediately becomes vulnerable as normal (assuming no other defending links are active on it).



That would seem to answer it (what dev blog was that in - couldn't find it!) but, TBH, it doesn't make sense. Why would a defender only have to have their link active for [corrected:12] minutes (worst case scenario, from the perspective of the current owner) to open the system up to capture, but the owner has to keep a link up for four hours to prevent it? That would seem to tip the balance far, far in favor of the attacker.

Given the original quote I referenced from Fozzie in the post that started this thread, I'm still thinking that having an owner complete a cycle "activates" the structure and makes it invulnerable for the rest of that period, and that the situation you're referencing is when an attacker actually has a link on the structure at the same time, prior to the owner completing a full cycle.

Of course, all we can do is speculate...thus, this thread - to get The Word From On High!
Memphis Baas
#10 - 2015-03-16 23:20:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
EDIT: The worst case scenario isn't 2 minutes.

It takes an attacker 2 minutes of entosis to get the counter started, which notifies the defenders that the system is being attacked.

After the first 2 minutes, the attacker still has to maintain the entosis on the structure for 10-40 minutes (depending on upgrades), and any defender that shows up and counter-entoses will pause the 10-40 minutes countdown. So the 10-40 minutes turn into an on-off fight that can last a significant amount of time, depending on escalation.

So if the fight lasts 4 hours and the attackers don't manage to get that 10-40 minute counter to 0, the structure just goes back to invuln. If they do manage, then it's reinforced, and next time it's a race to see who captures more nodes in the constellation.

So for the initial attack, the defenders should undock and run as much interference as possible, to extend the 10-40 minutes of timer to more than 4 hours, by running defense entosis modules and/or interrupting the attacker entosis beams.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#11 - 2015-03-16 23:23:05 UTC
It's explained in the same blog quoted in the OP, literally 2 sentences later.

Quote:
The Entosis Link is used for all kinds of manipulation of these structures. In general, activating an Entosis Link on a structure you own will activate and protect it, while activating an Entosis Link on a structure you do not own will disable, reinforce or capture it.

Crucially, the process of exerting control over a structure using an Entosis Link cannot be sped up by using more links or more players.

If two or more Entosis Links belonging to different “sides” are operational on the same structure at the same time, neither will have any effect and all capture will be paused. This remains true even if one side has more Links operational on the structure than the other side.

Overhaul Dscan!
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#12 - 2015-03-17 00:28:34 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
EDIT: The worst case scenario isn't 2 minutes.

It takes an attacker 2 minutes of entosis to get the counter started, which notifies the defenders that the system is being attacked.

After the first 2 minutes, the attacker still has to maintain the entosis on the structure for 10-40 minutes (depending on upgrades), and any defender that shows up and counter-entoses will pause the 10-40 minutes countdown. So the 10-40 minutes turn into an on-off fight that can last a significant amount of time, depending on escalation.

So if the fight lasts 4 hours and the attackers don't manage to get that 10-40 minute counter to 0, the structure just goes back to invuln. If they do manage, then it's reinforced, and next time it's a race to see who captures more nodes in the constellation.

So for the initial attack, the defenders should undock and run as much interference as possible, to extend the 10-40 minutes of timer to more than 4 hours, by running defense entosis modules and/or interrupting the attacker entosis beams.

Incorrect.
You can't force them to a time out under the current proposal. If you read it fully if the structure is partly 'captured' it remains vulnerable even outside that four hour window. Until the owner brings it back to 100% control on their side.
SoCal Stoli Rotsuda
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#13 - 2015-03-17 01:34:37 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
It's explained in the same blog quoted in the OP, literally 2 sentences later.

Quote:
The Entosis Link is used for all kinds of manipulation of these structures. In general, activating an Entosis Link on a structure you own will activate and protect it, while activating an Entosis Link on a structure you do not own will disable, reinforce or capture it.

Crucially, the process of exerting control over a structure using an Entosis Link cannot be sped up by using more links or more players.

If two or more Entosis Links belonging to different “sides” are operational on the same structure at the same time, neither will have any effect and all capture will be paused. This remains true even if one side has more Links operational on the structure than the other side.



Got that - but this (and many of the other discussions) is based on the assumption that there is an aggressor on the scene.

What if there is no aggressor at the structure when the owner activates their Entosis link at some point in the vulnerability period, and completes an uninterrupted cycle? Does that have any effect on the structure at all? According to what you and I have both quoted, an owner using an Entosis link on a structure will "activate and protect it". What protection, exactly, entails upon an owner's activation?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#14 - 2015-03-17 09:48:07 UTC
"Protection" in this context refers to stopping an attacker's progress while that attacker is linked and reversing that progress once the attacker has been destroyed.
SoCal Stoli Rotsuda
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#15 - 2015-03-17 17:51:39 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
"Protection" in this context refers to stopping an attacker's progress while that attacker is linked and reversing that progress once the attacker has been destroyed.


If that's the case, then the initiative has been put completely in the hands of the attacker(s) - an owner can do nothing except react to the actions of an aggressor.

That seems somewhat contrary to the concept of holding "sovereignty" over a system - all you can do is sit and wait for someone to attack you?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#16 - 2015-03-17 18:07:04 UTC
SoCal Stoli Rotsuda wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
"Protection" in this context refers to stopping an attacker's progress while that attacker is linked and reversing that progress once the attacker has been destroyed.


If that's the case, then the initiative has been put completely in the hands of the attacker(s) - an owner can do nothing except react to the actions of an aggressor.

That seems somewhat contrary to the concept of holding "sovereignty" over a system - all you can do is sit and wait for someone to attack you?


Yes, that sums up the new system in a nutshell.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#17 - 2015-03-17 21:15:19 UTC
SoCal Stoli Rotsuda wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
"Protection" in this context refers to stopping an attacker's progress while that attacker is linked and reversing that progress once the attacker has been destroyed.


If that's the case, then the initiative has been put completely in the hands of the attacker(s) - an owner can do nothing except react to the actions of an aggressor.

That seems somewhat contrary to the concept of holding "sovereignty" over a system - all you can do is sit and wait for someone to attack you?


The second half of the blog describes how occupancy affects entosis timers, etc. By being active in your space, you get defense bonuses that will probably be decisive in any kind of close fight. Unused space, on the other hand, is rather easy to capture.

Overhaul Dscan!
SoCal Stoli Rotsuda
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#18 - 2015-03-18 01:37:43 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
The second half of the blog describes how occupancy affects entosis timers, etc. By being active in your space, you get defense bonuses that will probably be decisive in any kind of close fight. Unused space, on the other hand, is rather easy to capture.



Again, this assumes a fight takes place, and the structures in question become contested.

It seems to me that, if you are active in your space, and are present at the outset of your daily vulnerability period, you should be able to lock it down somehow (as I believe Fozzie's original post implied) if you are able to put an uncontested link on it for the full "cycle + 10".

Having a bunch of folks on the cats at Ready-5 for four hours every day, just in case someone comes by, doesn't seem conducive to making the nullsec experience more positive for anyone except the trolls being widely discussed elsewhere.