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Balancing Amarr BS/large lasers
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Lugh Crow-Slave
#21 - 2015-03-15 07:31:27 UTC
Uriam Khanid wrote:
the Armageddon can with just one pg rig - exactly!! thank you even it a drone boat! Abaddon a very good hybrid platform, but bad with lasers

and again not all races need to be the same the others also don't use a weapon system that can swap charges instantly should they all be given this? - agree, but what you suggest? to remove all tachyons from game? or all T1 amarr BS? they are BAD with their own racial weapon!!! some even with mega beamsAttention


no just that if you want to fit them you are going to need to make cut backs in tank

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2015-03-15 08:28:08 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Considering how ridiculously powerful Tachs are, I don't have a problem with the current setup. Amarr BS are very well balanced imo.

Tachs are able to fire in optimal while other guns are in falloff, with similar paper DPS numbers. That means the applied DPS of tachs is higher then other turret types. This SHOULD have a tradeoff. It turns out to be using meta 4 instead of t2, and/or fitting a reduced tank are those tradeoffs.

The Abbadon and it's cap issues are unrelated - that ship has cap issues, period, and needs it's base cap adjusted.


by other turrets you mean howitzers and howitzers alone which have a very long falloff compared to rails and beams, and sniper weapons system already come with trade offs, namely tracking and raw DPS. I see nothing wrong with giving them higher fitting reqs than close range turrets, however in many cases some ships simply cannot fit a rack of long range guns without fitting mods to boot, and then you have very little fitting left for anything else.

honestly I'd rather deal with cap issues than, humm can't even fit the blasted thing.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#23 - 2015-03-15 13:49:44 UTC
aside from some terrible and inaccurate arguments made for this idea, they could bring back the grid needs of artie and beams a bit.

Cut backs in tank is an understatement in my opinion. Its pulse, or POS bash atm.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#24 - 2015-03-15 14:24:33 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
aside from some terrible and inaccurate arguments made for this idea, they could bring back the grid needs of artie and beams a bit.

Cut backs in tank is an understatement in my opinion. Its pulse, or POS bash atm.


Yeah!

I may not agree with OP's notion but I do agree with you. When I trained Amarr battleship not too long ago, I was trying to make a beam-kiter Apoc but even mega-beams are so difficult to fit that I had to ditch the idea and made a mjd-jump sniper instead.

Don't get me wrong, I am okay with making tradeoffs when fitting a ship and fine with using one fitting mod but to ditch the entire weapon system to make the ship work is a little much.

And the last thing you want on a kiting boat is a plate Sad

Sometime I wonder why we even have the distiction between 'mobile' attack and 'tankier' combat battleships?

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This is the law of ship progression!

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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
#25 - 2015-03-15 22:21:15 UTC
please read first post, i have some changes.
and thanks to communityBlink
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2015-03-15 23:31:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
The real damning problem is that Amarr BS aren't just ****** on PG when trying to fit Tachyons, they're also ****** on CPU. Minmatar BS just get ****** on PG. Fitting 8x Tachyon IIs on an Apoc with two plates and a MWD requires two PG mods AND a CPU mod or faction hardeners or it doesn't fit.

This is incidentally why the Apoc Navy Issue is so ridiculously good, it has extra CPU and PG so you can fit Tachyons and a full tank without needing a CPU mod, and the extra PG means you can fit Tachyon IIs on one PG mod or fit meta 4 Tachyons with no fitting mods whatsoever. The Navy Apoc has effectively +3 fitting slots over its T1 counterpart. The Megathron Navy Issue, for comparison, has......50m3 extra drone bandwidth. Sure it gets more fitting as well, but it's pretty much impossible to run a Megathron out of powergrid so that's not really a bonus.

The Megathron is just ludicrously overpowered in general, it's basically a navy BS with its overly generous fitting and slot layout. The only reason we're not seeing this now is because Tengus and Gallente T2 are FOTM which means kin/therm weapons are ****.
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#27 - 2015-03-16 01:57:28 UTC
It would be reasonable to say that Neutrons are a bit light in terms of fitting requirements. You rarely see anyone compensating with ions.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2015-03-16 02:03:08 UTC
Lienzo wrote:
It would be reasonable to say that Neutrons are a bit light in terms of fitting requirements. You rarely see anyone compensating with ions.


Looks like gallente technologies are more advanced. Amarr is very conservative doctrine at everything would it be religion or shipcrafting.

Lazorz are great with their beams and light show so it's basicaly a trade off for fitingt requirement.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#29 - 2015-03-16 03:51:15 UTC
Lienzo wrote:
It would be reasonable to say that Neutrons are a bit light in terms of fitting requirements. You rarely see anyone compensating with ions.


Ha! Tell that to the Navy Dominix..

But just to clarify, we are talking about long range guns not short range ones Smile

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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Leyete Wulf
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2015-03-16 13:00:29 UTC
All I can say about this is comparing tachyons to 1400s would be fine if 1400s weren't capless. I always feel a little dissapointed when I see the cap use reduction bonus on a laser boat. Cruiser A gets tracking damage and tank bonuses, Cruiser B gets damage cap use and tank. Why do I have to have a ship bonus just to be able to fire my guns for more than a minute at a time? The Abaddon should be the Amarr answer to the Rokh but even at full skills the Abaddon is going to cap itself out pretty much regardless of which BS guns it fits and passive tanked. Whereas the rokh, the mael, and the mega don't become cap sensitive until they start running reps or MWDing all over creation.
Balance means having meaningful choices. Not being stuck with something inferior just because that's the racial skill you have trained. (cough Revelation cough)
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#31 - 2015-03-16 15:51:12 UTC
Lienzo wrote:
It would be reasonable to say that Neutrons are a bit light in terms of fitting requirements. You rarely see anyone compensating with ions.


It may appear this way because the vast majority of people are willing to sacrifice tank to get neutrons.

the exception being battleships, at which point 800mm autos and mega pulses also dont come at a compromise.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#32 - 2015-03-16 16:57:17 UTC
Leyete Wulf wrote:
All I can say about this is comparing tachyons to 1400s would be fine if 1400s weren't capless. I always feel a little dissapointed when I see the cap use reduction bonus on a laser boat. Cruiser A gets tracking damage and tank bonuses, Cruiser B gets damage cap use and tank. Why do I have to have a ship bonus just to be able to fire my guns for more than a minute at a time? The Abaddon should be the Amarr answer to the Rokh but even at full skills the Abaddon is going to cap itself out pretty much regardless of which BS guns it fits and passive tanked. Whereas the rokh, the mael, and the mega don't become cap sensitive until they start running reps or MWDing all over creation.
Balance means having meaningful choices. Not being stuck with something inferior just because that's the racial skill you have trained. (cough Revelation cough)


That is not entirely true.

Please fit a Rokh with a full rack of 425mm rails, omni-active tank and mjd or mwd and do the 'Dread Pirate Scarlet' mission with this Rokh.

Since you get a range bonus to hybrid turrets, you will have enough range to always shoot antimatter up until 96km.

Please do so for a while and tell me again that the Rokh doesn't have problems.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2015-03-16 20:27:45 UTC
I've flown an Apocalypse, a Apoc navy issue and now a Paladin... I haven't run into any problems fitting any of them ever.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#34 - 2015-03-16 20:51:24 UTC
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
I've flown an Apocalypse, a Apoc navy issue and now a Paladin... I haven't run into any problems fitting any of them ever.


Because you never tried to fit tachyons onto the apocs.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2015-03-16 21:25:20 UTC
You can't even fit Megabeams to an Apoc without running out of CPU.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2015-03-16 21:44:24 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
I've flown an Apocalypse, a Apoc navy issue and now a Paladin... I haven't run into any problems fitting any of them ever.


Because you never tried to fit tachyons onto the apocs.


It's not that bad.... If you accept the usual sniper fail fit compromises. Plate can be meta'd to trade a TE for a HS.

[Apocalypse copy, Apocalypse]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Armor Layering Membrane II
Internal Force Field Array I
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Reactor Control Unit II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I <<<>>> OR MJD

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L

Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Warrior II x5



But really this is just 'sniper options are terrible, more at 11....'
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#37 - 2015-03-16 22:32:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
yup, no active tank.

Where as an equivalent mega/hyp can fit 425's, an active tank, a hybrid rig and an MJD with no fitting mods. None. Fluffers says the mega has CPU issues, but the only issue ive ever had is being a smidge over CPU that was solved by fitting a meta TC, the effect of which was negligible.

And an equivalent mael/rokh can fit 1400's/425's with an active tank and an MJD with one power dag (not even a reactor control). But they have the lows to spare and, as mentioned, the Rokh has awful cap.

An apoc cannot even fit mega beams and an active tank. Let alone tachyons an MJD or weapon rig. and it suffers much more by using low slots for fitting mods than a rokh or mael. Oh, and they have worse CPU issues than any other battleship to boot. But that comes with the territory of being amarr.


so...

The Tempest could use some grid love (and other love) to fit arties, and the grid requirements of large beams could be brought back so that an Apoc can make a competitive mega beam fit and a baddon can make a competitive tachyon fit.

This way large beams will hopefully be fit on more than just ABC's and battleships with only 4 guns.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2015-03-16 22:37:07 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
I've flown an Apocalypse, a Apoc navy issue and now a Paladin... I haven't run into any problems fitting any of them ever.


Because you never tried to fit tachyons onto the apocs.


It's not that bad.... If you accept the usual sniper fail fit compromises. Plate can be meta'd to trade a TE for a HS.

[Apocalypse copy, Apocalypse]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Armor Layering Membrane II
Internal Force Field Array I
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Reactor Control Unit II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I <<<>>> OR MJD

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L

Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Warrior II x5



But really this is just 'sniper options are terrible, more at 11....'


A Megathron has over double the EHP of this, and does more DPS at all ranges up to 150km with better tracking. You have no injector and thus have less than three minutes of cap for your guns even if you don't use the MWD at all.

The only remotely viable Apoc fits use meta 4 guns, it just doesn't have the fitting for T2.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2015-03-16 22:40:58 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
These are the things you trade when you start hitting out to these, 200+ ranges. I never said it was smart. I did forget the booster though.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2015-03-16 22:42:58 UTC
afkalt wrote:
These are the things you trade when you start hitting out to these, 200+ ranges. I never said it was smart.


Sniping past 150km is worthless as you can be probed down and warped to.
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