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Setting Tactical Points
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Catain Tsuruomo
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-03-15 18:43:55 UTC
I keep reading recommendations to fly "above" or "below" and I am not sure of the soundness of this. As there is really no up or down, other than the arbitrary view imposed by the game's display, aren't you better off flying in some random direction to set up a TAC rather than using one of those 2 "spots"? Would they have a higher percentage of ambush because of people's tendency to orient in 2D?

Thanks

~ Seems I'm a diagnostic: someone who doesn't know whether there are two gods. ~
Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#2 - 2015-03-15 19:23:01 UTC
I've read your post twice.

Im not gonna lie; I dont understand what you mean.

Is a "Tactical point" a bookmark?

Do you mean "make a bookmark 200 below/above gate" and such?
Catain Tsuruomo
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2015-03-15 19:27:12 UTC
Yes.

~ Seems I'm a diagnostic: someone who doesn't know whether there are two gods. ~
Lictas Alice
Lazer Hawkz
#4 - 2015-03-15 19:39:02 UTC
you want to make them at 150 and 200. In any direction that is aligned too a celestial.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#5 - 2015-03-15 19:49:43 UTC
Lictas Alice wrote:
you want to make them at 150 and 200. In any direction that is aligned too a celestial.

Why this?

This seems like the worst possible way to make tacticals/bounces/perches.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#6 - 2015-03-15 20:05:26 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Lictas Alice wrote:
you want to make them at 150 and 200. In any direction that is aligned too a celestial.

Why this?

This seems like the worst possible way to make tacticals/bounces/perches.

It is,

anyone who lives/loiters there will have those , come to vacamia and either I or one of my corpmates will show you Twisted

I think she was just considering the min distance.


Make safespots and align them with those or have them above or below (note however above/below Can be risky for the same reason as ones align with celestials unless you make them offgrid)

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Catain Tsuruomo
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-03-15 20:17:01 UTC
Lictas Alice wrote:
you want to make them at 150 and 200. In any direction that is aligned too a celestial.
That goes to my point. Why the predictable?

~ Seems I'm a diagnostic: someone who doesn't know whether there are two gods. ~
Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#8 - 2015-03-15 20:34:36 UTC
Alright. Gotcha.

Making a bookmark (BM) above or below is a bad idea. Most local residents will have ATLEAST those spots covered. There's also guys like me that have been making bookmarks for years. The only gates and stations I don't have bookmarked are located in high-sec. You warp 200 straight above, below or any 90 degree angle for that matter, then you're mine (in low or nullsec regions). Since BM's are now actually visible, you don't even have to put effort in naming your BM's anymore.

If you make a BM in line with a celestial 2 things can happen:
1. Someone trying to kill you can try and land at your spot using the celestial thats inline with your BM and destination (a gate for example)
2. You're in nullsec and find yourself being dragged by a bubble that has been setup in line with that celestial.

A proper bookmark is not in line with anything. In nullsec that also means not in line in the opposite direction. A bubble will grab you if your warpline intersects with it. They drag as easily as the stop.

When you want to make a bookmark, zoom out and make sure you have brackets active. Mentally draw a line from every celestial to the object you want to warp to, after landing on your bookmark. Continue that line "through" your target (bubbles). Your bookmark needs to be more than 150 KM away from your targetpoint (you need to warp to it later) and not crossing any of those lines. So planets, other gates, stations, natural phenomena etc. Not a single line!

So you were right. A tactical spot above or below is no good. Nether is one in line with a warpable object. Your tactical spots needs to be 200 OFF

Kathryn Painway
Just a Ride
#9 - 2015-03-15 20:46:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kathryn Painway
Yes an arbitrary direction is better than heading up/down using your tactical overlay and I suggest at least 200 km off (esp. in wh/null space so you warp to a bubble edge from your perch) as a fast tackle frigate/cruiser can run you down fairly quickly especially when you're in a slower aligning ship or they have bookmarks of their own. There is also the chance of warping to you using combat probes (12-15 seconds) so try to be cloaked or make sure you are able to warp to your bm at distance (30-100 km at different angles) & still reach your target short-warp on-grid.

Bookmark safes, or bounces should only be in-line with a celestial if you are in hi/lo-sec space (no stop/pull bubbles) OR for bookmarking 100 km off a target to nab those gits/newbies who warp in at that range for a look-see. The later being for offensive pvp/gank purposes only and is time consuming and not often done unless your stalking and time is not of the essence. One other case for in-line bookmarks would of course be if you where in a bait ship and wanted to be "caught".

Bottom line, fly erratically and change your bookmarks periodically if not flying a cov-ops (and even then).

Penis
Catain Tsuruomo
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-03-15 20:52:27 UTC
Excellent. Thanks to all for giving me a better grasp of this.

~ Seems I'm a diagnostic: someone who doesn't know whether there are two gods. ~
Iain Cariaba
#11 - 2015-03-15 21:07:51 UTC
Catain Tsuruomo wrote:
I keep reading recommendations to fly "above" or "below" and I am not sure of the soundness of this. As there is really no up or down, other than the arbitrary view imposed by the game's display, aren't you better off flying in some random direction to set up a TAC rather than using one of those 2 "spots"? Would they have a higher percentage of ambush because of people's tendency to orient in 2D?

Thanks

And how would you prefer we orient? Regardless of where you are, whether using a 2d map or a 3d computer generated galaxy, you need a point of reference to provide direction.
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#12 - 2015-03-15 23:04:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Pok Nibin
I can almost see your point with regard to spatial orientation. HOWEVER (<---- big "however"), you overlook a couple of obvious things, which people usually do when they try being clever while shooting from the hip.

1.) Up and down are more often references to the location of your head in relation to your feet. Your head is
(in a "normal" state) up, so your feet would be down.

2.) When we zip into a system from a gate, we're all "pointed in the same direction" with regard to our axis;
head up/feet down.

Therefore, aside from this, you had a point? (I'd tell you how to set a safe spot that takes advantage of the undisciplined mind [like Khan in Star Trek II] tending to think two-dimensionally. However, that information is classified.) I do hope this doesn't turn into a plea for CCP to alter the game to accommodate people who think rather - poorly.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Memphis Baas
#13 - 2015-03-15 23:34:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
The game does have universal up and down, actually, because of the way the physics of flight are implemented. Your ship orients itself more like a submarine, and all ships in the vicinity will orient themselves with the same up and down. The up and down also correspond with each solar system's orbit plane.

So, basically, warping from a source in the system plane to a bookmark in the plane has a higher chance of intersecting a bubble than warping to an up or down offset. However, as it's been said above, good gate camps cover the up and down positions.

Otherwise, the 200 km and 150 km have to do with the radius of the local grid, and/or minimum warpable distance. If you're off-grid you can d-scan while not being visible, and if you're at more than 150km you're visible but can warp to the gate (or warp off).

Also, it's great for all the veterans to point out that they have every single star gate covered. Unfortunately, someone who isn't a veteran or whose corp or alliance isn't providing the bookmarks won't have them, and it takes time and a relatively quiet area to create all these "perfect" bookmarks.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-03-16 00:56:35 UTC

Lictas Alice wrote:
you want to make them at 150 and 200. In any direction that is aligned too a celestial.


There is no concept of being "aligned" to anything when you jump through a gate. Your advice doesn't make any sense. Also, a bookmark is a point, not a vector, so the concept of being aligned doesn't apply to a bookmark either.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#15 - 2015-03-16 01:49:11 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Lictas Alice wrote:
you want to make them at 150 and 200. In any direction that is aligned too a celestial.


There is no concept of being "aligned" to anything when you jump through a gate. Your advice doesn't make any sense. Also, a bookmark is a point, not a vector, so the concept of being aligned doesn't apply to a bookmark either.


you're bad - clearly they were referring to the bookmark being in an alignment between gate and celestial
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#16 - 2015-03-16 16:49:10 UTC
Im sure this info is buried in the replies, but ill say it anyways.

You want your tactical bookmarks at 175km+ out of alignment from other gates and nearby celestials including the sun. You want to go with more than 150km just for safeties sake.
When people say to make them 'above' or 'below', its because in a majority of systems all the celestials/gates are in the same plane, so making your bookmarks above or below the gate in question is the best way to avoid direct lines needed for bubbles.
In cases where gates are positioned out of the systems elliptical, the best tactical bookmarks may be to the sides instead of 'up or down' from it.
My personal way is to go at a diagonal behind the gate in question at about 200km. This gives me the best opportunities to get into position in a bomber to whore on peoples bubble traps.
Once you make your tacticals, do not warp to them at 0. Warp at random distances (this is why 175km+ is best). If someone does happen to insta-probe you, your true bookmark will be safe and useable for the future. Yes, people do bookmark and label other people's tacticals, and I can tell you it is hilarious when someone warps to their tactical and it uncloaks a sabre.. who drops a bubble on them.
If you are going to be using a particular pipe a lot (no pun intended), id suggest using an Interceptor built for speed or a small fast covert ops cloaky to quickly burn out in random directions as described above to make all your bookmarks. On your way back, use them. If you notice yourself going through or really close to the gate, burn off to the side and change the bookmark. Dotn forget to delete the old one.
Label your bookmark for the gate or object that it is nearest (at least 1st 3 digits of its desgination i.e. "K-HA Tactical") Ive had to chew some ass because a corpie was labeling BMs for the corp with the out gate instead of the gate is was on.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-03-16 20:20:10 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Lictas Alice wrote:
you want to make them at 150 and 200. In any direction that is aligned too a celestial.


There is no concept of being "aligned" to anything when you jump through a gate. Your advice doesn't make any sense. Also, a bookmark is a point, not a vector, so the concept of being aligned doesn't apply to a bookmark either.



That's not what it means to say that a bookmark is aligned. It's probably a poor choice of a word, but there you have it.

When a bookmark is aligned, it means that it lies on a direct path between two warpable celestial objects in the system. Doesn't matter what they are - two asteroid belts, a belt and a planet, planet and a moon, moon and a station, station and a gate. A bookmark on the virtual line connecting those two objects is considered to be an aligned bookmark. These are bad for a multitude of reasons, not least of which is warp at range.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2015-03-16 20:22:19 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Im sure this info is buried in the replies, but ill say it anyways.

You want your tactical bookmarks at 175km+ out of alignment from other gates and nearby celestials including the sun. You want to go with more than 150km just for safeties sake.
When people say to make them 'above' or 'below', its because in a majority of systems all the celestials/gates are in the same plane, so making your bookmarks above or below the gate in question is the best way to avoid direct lines needed for bubbles.
In cases where gates are positioned out of the systems elliptical, the best tactical bookmarks may be to the sides instead of 'up or down' from it.
My personal way is to go at a diagonal behind the gate in question at about 200km. This gives me the best opportunities to get into position in a bomber to ***** on peoples bubble traps.
Once you make your tacticals, do not warp to them at 0. Warp at random distances (this is why 175km+ is best). If someone does happen to insta-probe you, your true bookmark will be safe and useable for the future. Yes, people do bookmark and label other people's tacticals, and I can tell you it is hilarious when someone warps to their tactical and it uncloaks a sabre.. who drops a bubble on them.
If you are going to be using a particular pipe a lot (no pun intended), id suggest using an Interceptor built for speed or a small fast covert ops cloaky to quickly burn out in random directions as described above to make all your bookmarks. On your way back, use them. If you notice yourself going through or really close to the gate, burn off to the side and change the bookmark. Dotn forget to delete the old one.
Label your bookmark for the gate or object that it is nearest (at least 1st 3 digits of its desgination i.e. "K-HA Tactical") Ive had to chew some ass because a corpie was labeling BMs for the corp with the out gate instead of the gate is was on.


I am seeing way to many useful replies from you today, UAE. You sick or something? Do you need immediate medical assistance? Are you in a coma? Tied up in the closet wheile your dog/hamster/significant other/neighbor/neighbor's dog/hamster/significant other makes use of your account?

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#19 - 2015-03-16 21:08:56 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
I am seeing way to many useful replies from you today, UAE. You sick or something? Do you need immediate medical assistance? Are you in a coma? Tied up in the closet wheile your dog/hamster/significant other/neighbor/neighbor's dog/hamster/significant other makes use of your account?


UaE's cat has seized control of the keyboard and has trapped poor Unsuccessful in carbonite. When asked if he was willing to bargain for UaE's release, he had these words to say.

UaE's cat wrote:
There will be no bargain. I will not give up my favorite decoration. I like Unsuccessful right where he is.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#20 - 2015-03-16 21:12:03 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Im sure this info is buried in the replies, but ill say it anyways.

You want your tactical bookmarks at 175km+ out of alignment from other gates and nearby celestials including the sun. You want to go with more than 150km just for safeties sake.
When people say to make them 'above' or 'below', its because in a majority of systems all the celestials/gates are in the same plane, so making your bookmarks above or below the gate in question is the best way to avoid direct lines needed for bubbles.
In cases where gates are positioned out of the systems elliptical, the best tactical bookmarks may be to the sides instead of 'up or down' from it.
My personal way is to go at a diagonal behind the gate in question at about 200km. This gives me the best opportunities to get into position in a bomber to ***** on peoples bubble traps.
Once you make your tacticals, do not warp to them at 0. Warp at random distances (this is why 175km+ is best). If someone does happen to insta-probe you, your true bookmark will be safe and useable for the future. Yes, people do bookmark and label other people's tacticals, and I can tell you it is hilarious when someone warps to their tactical and it uncloaks a sabre.. who drops a bubble on them.
If you are going to be using a particular pipe a lot (no pun intended), id suggest using an Interceptor built for speed or a small fast covert ops cloaky to quickly burn out in random directions as described above to make all your bookmarks. On your way back, use them. If you notice yourself going through or really close to the gate, burn off to the side and change the bookmark. Dotn forget to delete the old one.
Label your bookmark for the gate or object that it is nearest (at least 1st 3 digits of its desgination i.e. "K-HA Tactical") Ive had to chew some ass because a corpie was labeling BMs for the corp with the out gate instead of the gate is was on.


I am seeing way to many useful replies from you today, UAE. You sick or something? Do you need immediate medical assistance? Are you in a coma? Tied up in the closet wheile your dog/hamster/significant other/neighbor/neighbor's dog/hamster/significant other makes use of your account?

You can't be "lotion and hose " all the time , it looses its impactBlink

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
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