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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

First post First post First post
Author
Iski Zuki DaSen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1041 - 2015-03-10 16:54:45 UTC
When i like to play with small ships frigates and destros i go to FW

when i want to conquer something i think i might need a bigger boat

E-Link can be fitted in :

Ceptors frigates destroyers = NO
Cruisers = Maybe
Battlecruisers = YES YES HELL YES ( brings a reason for peeps to actually use them once again )
Batleships =yes
Carriers= maybe
Supers= NO NO NO HELL NO

also i dont like the idea of the skill.. "hey i can jump clone i can go and conquer the world also now"
it should be under "Corporation Managment" group of skills
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#1042 - 2015-03-10 17:10:32 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
Dave Stark wrote:


for the sake of discussion, please list them so i can respond to each and every one.

if a defender is willing to just feed ships in to a meat grinder faster than you can kill them and you have 0 way to pause the progress - you lose by default.

edit: also in the post you quoted i perhaps should have said "pause" not "prevent" but oh well. pause is closer to what i meant.


well lets negate the fact most weapon systems can deal dps beyond the 25km range you harp on about and talk about non damage specific examples being both ECM and Ewar, and inclusive of that it also makes the once irrelevant lockbreaker bomb somewhat worthwhile as a somewhat viable ecm burst. additionaly to that is actual ecm bursts that can be fitted on ceptors that can land ecm burst and warp off pretty much without getting caught

Considering the second point you made, forces are strong in their ability to do the heavy lifting and provide the logistics to keep the war machine rolling are part and parcel of what makes an occupying force dominant enough to occupy.
Your entirely assumed idea that a force that has both the strength of willpower and resource might to keep reshipping and keep at the objective regardless of losses is somehow irrelevant to the progress of war is absurd. Brave are a prime example of that where other lesser orgs have not had the determination that they possess.

A Counterpoint to that however in Eve is that you can utilise stealth bombers to great effect in order to deal damage to many multiple ships at once, especially t1 ships that theyre feeding into the meat grinder. question is can you restock ammo as fast as they can restock ships? logic dictates that to be dominant you should be able to.

and finally yes pause and prevent are two different things, and you should be mindful where you use either, as one is a complete denial of one thing over another and the other is a temporary scenario that trends towards a conclusion.


im also highly enjoying your other discussion trail where you seem to be argueing furiously against the notion of trol ceptors and the 250km sov laser whilst trying to continue to keep a genuine argumentative approach here. =)
Dave Stark
#1043 - 2015-03-10 17:18:50 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


for the sake of discussion, please list them so i can respond to each and every one.

if a defender is willing to just feed ships in to a meat grinder faster than you can kill them and you have 0 way to pause the progress - you lose by default.

edit: also in the post you quoted i perhaps should have said "pause" not "prevent" but oh well. pause is closer to what i meant.


well lets negate the fact most weapon systems can deal dps beyond the 25km range you harp on about and talk about non damage specific examples being both ECM and Ewar, and inclusive of that it also makes the once irrelevant lockbreaker bomb somewhat worthwhile as a somewhat viable ecm burst. additionaly to that is actual ecm bursts that can be fitted on ceptors that can land ecm burst and warp off pretty much without getting caught

and considering the second point you made, forces are strong in their ability to do the heavy lifting and provide the logistics to heel the war machine rolling are part and parcel of what makes an occupying force dominant enough to occupy. Your entirely assumed idea that a force that has both the strength of willpower and resource might to keep reshipping and keep at the objective regardless of losses is a show of dominance and strength. Brave are a prime example of that where other lesser orgs have not had the determination that they possess.

and finally yes pause and prevent are two different things, and you should be mindful where you use either, as one is a complete denial of one thing over another and the other is a temporary scenario that trends towards a conclusion.


in that first paragraph the only solutions to my original point of just feeding ships to the meat grinder to capture the point because you can't prevent the capture over 25km away the ecm burst and lockbreaker bombs are the only 2 counters that could potentially work. i'll give you those. while familiar with the function, i'm not familiar with the duration/cooldown of those two things so we'll move on to your final point;

it should simply be the case that the capture of a node should not happen until only one man is left standing on the grid; as such unless you can pause an attackers progress, or a defender's progress one will inevitably win regardless of who is left standing at the end not that i think that's good or bad one way or the other but it goes against the idea fozzie said he's working to.

anyway nearly time to leave the office.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1044 - 2015-03-10 17:20:16 UTC
I just noticed its now post # 973

As far "its boring" goes - it is less boring that shooting a structure in my opinion. Sov warfare has been traditionally a battle of will in EVE - until at some point number of supercapitals went so high that will had not much to do with holding a sov anymore - it was just a question of having a critical mass of supers.

Shooting trollceptors would be reasonably rewarding activity in addition isk/h wise. Spending about 4.. 5 (1..2 min ship change, about 1 min to try to kill it, 1..2 min ship change back) minutes to a counter one with 25% probability of a kill and 50% probability of 80 mil drop if getting a kill would net roughly 40 mil/tick (a trollceptor kill every 20 minutes but only every second would drop the mod). Sure it will not knock ones socks off but on the other hand it would not be a totally wasted time either isk/h wise.

"Its boring" is anyway a bit too general statement. People find different things interesting. I still cant understand, for example, what was going on in the head of ice miner before the ice mining changes but people were actually doing it. Boring to some guy interesting to some other.

If I would have a sov and I would have a trollceptor problem where I would be dealing with them 4h straight I would fit a specific ship extra for these guys which would be able to kill one reliably in ~60 seconds or more (which would increase the kill rate to 50%).

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Dras Malar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1045 - 2015-03-10 17:26:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Dras Malar
Everyone who has never had to defend sov should ask yourselves what you could possibly contribute to this discussion.

If I'm in a trollceptor, and you damp me with a Celestis or whatever, I move three systems over and lose you, and start again. I don't even have to go for sov, I'll just turn off station services because it's faster and it creates work for you. This is going to happen every day until we're all too bored to deal with it anymore. And then we'll all just play a different game.
Dave Stark
#1046 - 2015-03-10 17:28:24 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
I just noticed its now post # 973

As far "its boring" goes - it is less boring that shooting a structure in my opinion. Sov warfare has been traditionally a battle of will in EVE - until at some point number of supercapitals went so high that will had not much to do with holding a sov anymore - it was just a question of having a critical mass of supers.

Shooting trollceptors would be reasonably rewarding activity in addition isk/h wise. Spending about 4.. 5 (1..2 min ship change, about 1 min to try to kill it, 1..2 min ship change back) minutes to a counter one with 25% probability of a kill and 50% probability of 80 mil drop if getting a kill would net roughly 40 mil/tick (a trollceptor kill every 20 minutes but only every second would drop the mod). Sure it will not knock ones socks off but on the other hand it would not be a totally wasted time either isk/h wise.

"Its boring" is anyway a bit too general statement. People find different things interesting. I still cant understand, for example, what was going on in the head of ice miner before the ice mining changes but people were actually doing it. Boring to some guy interesting to some other.

If I would have a sov and I would have a trollceptor problem where I would be dealing with them 4h straight I would fit a specific ship extra for these guys which would be able to kill one reliably in ~60 seconds or more (which would increase the kill rate to 50%).


as some one who has participated in both sov warfare, and ice mining. i can tell you what goes through the head of some one ice mining, or structure bashing.

it's the same.

it's netflix.

can't even watch netflix while doing the boring part of this new sov system.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#1047 - 2015-03-10 17:28:29 UTC
1nverted wrote:
It seems incredible that some people are still defending trollceptors in light of Fozzie's original post:. In that post, he said this:


We've been seeing quite a bit of concern from parts of the community that the Entosis Link mechanics will push people to pure evasion fits, the so called trollceptors. It goes without saying that we do not want the sov war meta turn into nothing but sensor boosting Interceptors, but we have plenty of time and tools to help ensure that scenario doesn't occur.

One of the points of this thread is to discuss how CCP can avoid trollceptors becoming a thing.

I suggest a speed limit of 3500m/s on ships using the entosis link.

Goons should stop saying how stupid trollceptors are (that is a given) and start making suggestions as to how to avoid them.

The other posters should stop defending the idea of a trollceptor. Fozzie's post says that CCP's focus is to ensure a command node is won by the party controlling the grid. Kiting interceptors at 10,000m/s do not fulfil that goal and will therefore not be allowed.

I'm not trying to defend trollceptors, but I am trying to work with what I infer Fozzie's design goal is, namely "light touch" keep it simple and minimal limitations.
On paper the Trollceptor looks like it could be a real harassment technique, that if exploited, could remove fun and conflict over Sov. But there are enough people saying they could counter them that maybe they deserve a chance to do so before setting limits on the ELink module.
Personally I think the T2 range is too good unless the fitting requirements are high. But since we don't even know those numbers yet, I hope they will cause enough limitations on frigate use that they don't have to impose other arbitrary limits on the module itself.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1048 - 2015-03-10 17:30:19 UTC
Iski Zuki DaSen wrote:
When i like to play with small ships frigates and destros i go to FW

when i want to conquer something i think i might need a bigger boat

E-Link can be fitted in :

Ceptors frigates destroyers = NO
Cruisers = Maybe
Battlecruisers = YES YES HELL YES ( brings a reason for peeps to actually use them once again )
Batleships =yes
Carriers= maybe
Supers= NO NO NO HELL NO

also i dont like the idea of the skill.. "hey i can jump clone i can go and conquer the world also now"
it should be under "Corporation Managment" group of skills


Imagine a super, stuck on grid for 10 minutes, unable to receive Remote Repair. Why is that a hell no situation?
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#1049 - 2015-03-10 17:31:53 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


it should simply be the case that the capture of a node should not happen until only one man is left standing on the grid; as such unless you can pause an attackers progress, or a defender's progress one will inevitably win regardless of who is left standing at the end not that i think that's good or bad one way or the other but it goes against the idea fozzie said he's working to.

anyway nearly time to leave the office.


well clearly fozzie saw a potential stalemate situation which is why there's a clause built in that more command nodes spawn if the tug of war engagement continues on for an extended period of time. A situation i might add that is advantageous to the kiting sniper fleet looking to kill more and more ships to further hinder and halt the progress of securing an objective.

less ships on a node = increased ability for you to kill jam ecm burst, bomb and otherwise disrupt and halt progress.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1050 - 2015-03-10 17:33:50 UTC
Dras Malar wrote:
Everyone who has never had to defend sov should ask yourselves what you could possibly contribute to this discussion.

If I'm in a trollceptor, and you damp me with a Celestis or whatever, I move three systems over and lose you, and start again. I don't even have to go for sov, I'll just turn off station services because it's faster and it creates work for you. This is going to happen every day until we're all too bored to deal with it anymore. And then we'll all just play a different game.


(1) If there is no one present in local you can freely to do so regardless of ship used.
(2) If there is someone present in local willing to do something about you you will be unsuccessful in that trollceptor and probably die within about 4 tries to create the timer. Exact number depends on what the defender brings.
(3) If you are happy to lose about 2-3 trollceptors / hour I am pretty sure there will be defenders willing to farm you grinning all the way through it every day you are willing to do so.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1051 - 2015-03-10 17:35:10 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


as some one who has participated in both sov warfare, and ice mining. i can tell you what goes through the head of some one ice mining, or structure bashing.

it's the same.

it's netflix.

can't even watch netflix while doing the boring part of this new sov system.


They don't show netflix legally outside of US :/

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

1Robert McNamara1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1052 - 2015-03-10 18:11:53 UTC
I've forgotten some of the restrictions... Can you cloak using the E-Link?

Cause if so, **** me.
Dave Stark
#1053 - 2015-03-10 18:46:38 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


as some one who has participated in both sov warfare, and ice mining. i can tell you what goes through the head of some one ice mining, or structure bashing.

it's the same.

it's netflix.

can't even watch netflix while doing the boring part of this new sov system.


They don't show netflix legally outside of US :/


eve is real, i'm a pirate. that is all.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#1054 - 2015-03-10 19:59:02 UTC
This is in F&I, like the afk claoking thread, they're basically lightning rods. It's a bore-off, except we thunderdome and ccp doesn't do anything.

Though the poor chaps that have to clean the thread... shrug

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

GeeShizzle MacCloud
#1055 - 2015-03-10 20:00:36 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
i honestly think the ISD guys should get a raise as of late.

or at least a lot of free beers from players at fanfest for all their work clearing out all the dreck from these threads.
Sigras
Conglomo
#1056 - 2015-03-10 20:09:37 UTC
Really this whole thread is trying to answer one question, what is "effective military control"?

If I have 20 battleships and 10 guardians on grid and you have 30 vagabonds and 10 scimitars on grid who has "effective military control"? Sure I cant catch you, but you cannot come near my fleet or you die.

Does a super kite-y fleet with the ability to run away exert military control?

The biggest problem is that the answer to that question IS going to effect the fleet meta out in 0.0 and there is no getting around that.
Amyclas Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1057 - 2015-03-10 20:12:38 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Really this whole thread is trying to answer one question, what is "effective military control"?

If I have 20 battleships and 10 guardians on grid and you have 30 vagabonds and 10 scimitars on grid who has "effective military control"? Sure I cant catch you, but you cannot come near my fleet or you die.

Does a super kite-y fleet with the ability to run away exert military control?

The biggest problem is that the answer to that question IS going to effect the fleet meta out in 0.0 and there is no getting around that.


You have 20 battleships and 10 guardians on one grid.

I have 5 ceptors spread in 5 systems of the constellation and give you the finger.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#1058 - 2015-03-10 20:14:50 UTC
i really don't understand why CCP wants those sov tools to be fitted on ceptors/frigs; after years and years of needing caps/supercaps for taking sov, now we are going to completely the other extreme around, you only need one ceptor....

like really, can anyone find this a bit ********? how about some balance? why this link "must" be allowed on ceptors?
why would anyone use another ship type for harassing sov holders around?

a big fight with tidi and caps/supercaps on field can last hours, so while an alliance is involved in one for example, a gang of 20 ceptors/bombers will be able to reinforce half a region with proposed mechanics... really CCP you are going to extreme with this instead of a more "balanced" option
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1059 - 2015-03-10 20:16:24 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Really this whole thread is trying to answer one question, what is "effective military control"?

If I have 20 battleships and 10 guardians on grid and you have 30 vagabonds and 10 scimitars on grid who has "effective military control"? Sure I cant catch you, but you cannot come near my fleet or you die.

Does a super kite-y fleet with the ability to run away exert military control?

The biggest problem is that the answer to that question IS going to effect the fleet meta out in 0.0 and there is no getting around that.


You have 20 battleships and 10 guardians on one one system.

You have no presence in another 5 systems of the constellation but somehow feel entitled to "hold" them.



Fixed that there.
Amyclas Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1060 - 2015-03-10 20:16:29 UTC
gascanu wrote:
i really don't understand why CCP wants those sov tools to be fitted on ceptors/frigs; after years and years of needing caps/supercaps for taking sov, now we are going to completely the other extreme around, you only need one ceptor....

like really, can anyone find this a bit ********? how about some balance? why this link "must" be allowed on ceptors?
why would anyone use another ship type for harassing sov holders around?

a big fight with tidi and caps/supercaps on field can last hours, so while an alliance is involved in one for example, a gang of 20 ceptors/bombers will be able to reinforce half a region with proposed mechanics... really CCP you are going to extreme with this instead of a more "balanced" option


:purity of doctrinal freedom:

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"