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Petition: Remove Slaves from the SCC Markets.
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Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#81 - 2015-03-08 23:12:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Blue spy wrote:
What this petition will do is codify into law the divine right for Amarrian holders, and only Amarrian holders to engage in the practice of buying and selling slaves.


No, it is not codifying a divine right, because that divine right already exists as law in Scripture. It is encouraging the enforcement of that law in SCC transactions. That law is already enforced in local Amarrian economic policies and has been for thousands of years. Holders are and have always been the sole legal owners of slaves in Amarr.

We cannot allow foreign free markets to break down our traditions, especially with the kind of heretical consequences that have arisen from that erosion.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#82 - 2015-03-08 23:19:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Evi Polevhia
Blue spy wrote:
While I understand that this petition could have had a more likable list of opponents, I would like to encourage everybody here to at least attempt to understand exactly what Nauplius and Albizu are attempting to explain.
This petition is not a step forward in the abolition of slavery; nor will it result in any meaningful strides made in the welfare of slaves. What this petition will do is codify into law the divine right for Amarrian holders, and only Amarrian holders to engage in the practice of buying and selling slaves. I encourage any Minmatar and abolitionists here to look over this petition again, and ask yourself this question... "Why should we legitimise the Amarrian slave trade?"

This petition is not sacrosanct; it's an attempt to corner a market and muscle out external competition. There's no mercy or kindness in it so why humour it by treating this petition as if it is some kind of benevolent gesture above scrutiny?

This petition is not legitimizing the Amarrian slave trade, it's taking the slave trade out of the hands of non-Holder Capsuleers. This will not affect the vast majority of legitimate Holders from acquiring slaves.

This petition will prevent the likes of Nauplius, me, and blood bathing crazy 24th IC Militia Members from acquiring easily mass amounts of cheap slaves. This is considered by many to be a good thing. And all things considered, even I will not speak out against it.

You say it is not a step forward to abolishing slavery. Well, true. But neither is it a watermelon. Anyone who claims it is something it's not needs to look closer. The swarm of signatures are not coming because of a move to abolish slavery, but rather restrict slaves from falling in to the hands of cruel and uncaring capsuleers. Take your stance in this matter wisely.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#83 - 2015-03-08 23:20:10 UTC
A simpler solution would be to rebrand slaves sold on the SCC markets as, "Crew (Indentured)". Less hassle, and I daresay the fact they are listed on SCC databases simply as crew would make their purchase, sale, and potential destruction much less of a contentious issue in the public domain.

That aside, sure why not, I'll sign. Human trafficking should be something for the black markets, conducted by shady and dubious people, and not legitimized on the SCC markets where it offends my humanitarian sensibilities while I'm looking to purchase some high explosive ordnance, armaments, and the accoutrements of violence.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Alizebeth Amalath
Doomheim
#84 - 2015-03-08 23:24:54 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:

Trying to change the SCC is a futile gesture that results in nothing but good feelings for having tried.
Changing the policy of the Imperial and Khanid institutions that sell slaves on the SCC market is a much more attainable and specific goal.
If you or Admiral Blake have a plan that is achievable, measurable and specific, I would love to hear it.


If I wanted to change Imperial and Khanid institutions, I would do it in the form of a petition. Petitions reek of Gallente culture: a culture of self-entitlement.

I could have started by filing suit in Theology Council courts against the Civic Court for violation of Canon Law. That seemed unduly hostile as a first step, though.
You, Reverend, could actually come up with a plan that keeps those we have an obligation to out of the hands of lunatics and murders like I asked, instead of an automatic gainsaying.
In this thread, there Blood Raiders admitting that they need to buy those slaves to experiment on, torture and murder. There is a Sansha supporter that admits to buying slaves to take to Stain, where they undoubtedly become mindless drones. There are Minmatar that buy slaves to smuggle them across the border. And you quibble and sneer about how a petition is the 'wrong way to do it.' It frankly makes me sick.
Blue spy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#85 - 2015-03-08 23:28:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Blue spy
Samira Kernher wrote:
Blue spy wrote:
What this petition will do is codify into law the divine right for Amarrian holders, and only Amarrian holders to engage in the practice of buying and selling slaves.


No, it is not codifying a divine right, because that divine right already exists as law in Scripture. It is encouraging the enforcement of that law in SCC transactions. That law is already enforced in local Amarrian economic policies and has been for thousands of years. Holders are and have always been the sole legal owners of slaves in Amarr.

We cannot allow foreign free markets to break down our traditions, especially with the kind of heretical consequences that have arisen from that erosion.


I was not aware that divine law factored into the day-to-day operations of the SCC. But while we are on the topic of Amarrian imperialism, what other steps can the cluster make to better accommodate to, and pander to the Amarr?

My arguement isn't about abolition. Whether you sign this petition or not; will make no difference to the wellbeing of the average slave. It won't save them from Nauplius he has the means, and resources to simply bypass the SCC entirely. Instead you're just guaranteeing and pandering to the belief of Amarrians that they have some god given right right to keep and own slaves. You're merely signing off to offer your support to that notion.

I would have thought thay any Minmatar worth his salt would rather chop his or her own hand off than bend the knee to the notion that Amarrians have the right to own slaves.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#86 - 2015-03-08 23:30:40 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
If I wanted to change Imperial and Khanid institutions, I would do it in the form of a petition. Petitions reek of Gallente culture: a culture of self-entitlement.


With all due respect, milord...

While I understand that there was much chaos in the early years of this decade that were of much graver concern than this, it is something that needs to be changed. I do not normally approve of this kind of petition, but if getting on our hands and knees and begging en masse is the only way to see this evil ended then it would be irresponsible of us to not do it. I will take whatever punishment is due to me for overstepping my place if it would see this horrid practice changed.

If you know of a better way to go about this, then please tell me and I will do it. As a commoner I have little other power than my pleas, and can only beg my betters to take these matters to our heirs on my behalf.
Alizebeth Amalath
Doomheim
#87 - 2015-03-08 23:31:37 UTC
Blue spy wrote:

I was not aware that divine law factored into the day-to-day operations of the SCC. But while we are on the topic of Amarrian imperialism, what other steps can the cluster make to better accommodate to, and pander to the Amarr?


This is not directed at the SCC. This is directed to the Civic Court, Khanid Transport and the Ammatar Consulate. These are three Imperial/Kingdom agencies operating in sovereign Imperial/Kingdom space. This is a purely internal affair and has no bearing on the wider SCC markets or operations.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#88 - 2015-03-08 23:34:59 UTC
Blue spy wrote:
I was not aware that divine law factored into the day-to-day operations of the SCC.


It should factor into all dealings by and with faithful citizens of Amarr, as it has in our economic policies for thousands of years and as was upheld in our previous trading agreements with the other empires.

We are not asking the cluster. We are not asking CONCORD or the SCC to change their policies. We are asking our lords to enforce God's law on our people.
Blue spy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#89 - 2015-03-08 23:42:33 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Blue spy wrote:
I was not aware that divine law factored into the day-to-day operations of the SCC.


It should factor into all dealings by and with faithful citizens of Amarr, as it has in our economic policies for thousands of years and as was upheld in our previous trading agreements with the other empires.

We are not asking the cluster. We are not asking CONCORD or the SCC to change their policies. We are asking our lords to enforce God's law on our people.


I apologise for reaching my conclusion rather rashly then. Any attempts by the Amarrians to limit their own market activities can count on my wholehearted support.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#90 - 2015-03-08 23:48:31 UTC
Thank you, sir.
Jukko Riis
Doomheim
#91 - 2015-03-09 01:20:56 UTC
Abstained.

Not my place to tell a neighbor what to do in her own house.

Slavery is illegal in Caldari. Break Caldari law, ally or not, you pay.

BRCE: Mission Statement!
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#92 - 2015-03-09 01:21:26 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:


If I wanted to change Imperial and Khanid institutions, I would do it in the form of a petition. Petitions reek of Gallente culture: a culture of self-entitlement.

To be honest, their is no other type of entitlement, any right or privilege you have, you gave to yourself.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#93 - 2015-03-09 06:06:38 UTC
If we can't buy them how else can we free them?

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2015-03-09 06:24:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
If we can't buy them how else can we free them?


By making slave-owning economically unsustainable.

But of course, considering that the Amarr Empire's slavery issue is also tied to the religion, they will likely hold on to their slaves even if holding slaves result in economic loss. In fact, I think that might even start a war.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Reginald Sakakibara
Banana-Republic.
Shadow Cartel
#95 - 2015-03-09 07:31:07 UTC
I, Lord Reginald Sakakibara, by the grace of God and as a humble servant of Her Majesty's government, hereby affix my signature to this petition on the 9th of March, YC 117.
Red Khalmer
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#96 - 2015-03-09 11:57:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Red Khalmer
I will never sign such a treaty and I encourage any people supporting the matari to do the same.

This "proposal" is not Because The Amarr are merciful to the slaves, no. Its Their greed to monopolize the Slave market for their own gain. The ignorant PIE speaks such nice words about how they will make it so the Blood cults wont aquire slaves from the market. But we all know that some of the Blood fanatics work with the IC14 and most likely have access to slaves anyway. Either through SCC like now or through the empire. If they would really care about the well being of the slaves they would have been freed a long time ago. But their wicked lies will continue aslong as we dont do anything about it.

Freedom to the Matari people! Death to all slavers and betrayers!
Shikhee
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#97 - 2015-03-09 12:23:40 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
If we can't buy them how else can we free them?


Buying any product ensures that suppliers of that product on the market have reason to continue supplying said product. If you want to end slavery, buying slaves is arguably one of the worst things you could do.

Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#98 - 2015-03-09 12:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
By creating a space in the open market of the SCC for slave trading, CONCORD sends the message to the cluster that it is the norm, rather then the exception - When in fact it is outlawed in all of the major powers save for one. The practice is frowned upon by the majority of civilized society, and those interests should be reflected in the international market.

For these reasons, as well as the humanitarian concerns, I will sign this petition - And say it should go further and ask for CONCORD to abolish recognition of human trafficking entirely.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#99 - 2015-03-09 12:55:18 UTC
Red Khalmer wrote:
I will never sign such a treaty and I encourage any people supporting the matari to do the same.

This "proposal" is not Because The Amarr are merciful to the slaves, no. Its Their greed to monopolize the Slave market for their own gain. The ignorant PIE speaks such nice words about how they will make it so the Blood cults wont aquire slaves from the market. But we all know that some of the Blood fanatics work with the IC14 and most likely have access to slaves anyway. Either through SCC like now or through the empire. If they would really care about the well being of the slaves they would have been freed a long time ago. But their wicked lies will continue aslong as we dont do anything about it.

Freedom to the Matari people! Death to all slavers and betrayers!

Out of interest...

You do realise this has nothing to do with slavery, per se? This is to do with the presence of slaves, often an illegal commodity, on the SCC market both within and outside of Amarr. Within the Empire, Holders are going to continue to do what they do and it's highly unlikely that the likes of us will affect them. Separate discussion.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
U'tah Arareb
Doomheim
#100 - 2015-03-09 15:03:27 UTC
More to the point it has to do with certain Agencies within the Empire making slaves (by being a source) available to any Tom, Dicktrus, and Harridious. This is in direct contradiction to Amarrian law and places the slaves themselves in peril. This is strictly an internal affair and not meant to alter your market shrine in the least.