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Capitals and supers - give us something to do with them
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Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#21 - 2015-03-06 21:24:15 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Allow supercaps to crash into outposts to destroy them, killing two birds with one stone.


I agree there should be some type of mass based bump damage mechanic.

Queue "Ramming Speeed!" meme

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#22 - 2015-03-06 21:28:14 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Capitals using acceleration gates: Sure, let me solo a 10/10 in 10 minutes. This is a good idea. Incursions? Let's make them pretty much risk free due to the massive reps a pair of triage carriers can bring to the field. Moar isk!!!! Oh, and if you can't warp a capital out in the minutes it takes that hunting party to probe down your escalation, warp to it, and navigate through to the third room, then you deserve to lose it. Bringing capitals into sites is a bad idea, because it makes them safer to run, and safer for the capital pilot.

Docking Supers: What good fights during freeport period? You mean the fight where the super pilots realize they're camped in, and simply log out for a week, then one ot two at a time log in, undock with hangars full of stuff, and jump away before they can get locked down? Or do you mean the one where the evacuating coalition drops a thousand pilots into the system in advance, blue balling any real blockade of the station while the supers and jump freighters jump out with all the stuff?

Death to all Supers.


Don't forget about the Incursion payout; if it's not finished, there is not payout. You have to grind the influence down before the mom spawns, and that damn thing is tough to begin with. There's a reason why its all big'n'shiny stuff in the highsec ones.

The whole point of this post is to bring a little action to those of us who are getting nerfed into the ground.

Yeah, yeah Death to Supers, I know. Blah blah blah.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#23 - 2015-03-06 21:31:29 UTC
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
I've no objection to the addition if Cap/Super PvE content.

Why not have null sec 10/10 escalate to 20/10 cap fights with a super accepting accel gates that requires a pass key for supers (no two or more supers at once spider tanking). One room with lots of LCOTwisted. Good AI that thinks about targets and packs a punch befitting of the spawn ship type.


They should take a look at NPC faction and officer (commander) spawns and mix it up with 1 assault Frig, 1 HAC, 1 Bs & 1 cap spawn for the meta's 11-14. Change the loot drops for the same metas to be hull size specific ie:- Meta 11 frig mods, meta 12 cruiser/BC size etc.

I don't mean this to lower the tanki-ness of the officer spawns but they could do with variety (rather than just tier 1-4 value). There is soo much that could be done with these metas.


2.
Allow Supers to dock. No but perhaps yes.

Allow them to dock to a station docking ring yes. Player owned stations only. Docking ring fitted allows 1 super then plus one per level of upgrade. Then work out a system to allow docking rings to be attacked (perhaps this is your new structure grind) that either disables the ring and the super from undock or perhaps even damages the docked super.


There remains a lot to see from what I would expect to be a serious balance pass at the top end ships. Let us hope CCP intend to do something.


This is what I was hoping for, a discussion on "give us something to do", not an endless debate on "death to supers"

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...
Zeus Atlantis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2015-03-06 21:57:09 UTC
Increase the warp speed of capitals to 3 Au/sec.

(why do large objects warp slower in space anyways?? These aren't underwater!!)

This would make it feasible to burn gates in a large fleet and have interesting fleet comps. Give supers variable fleet bonus like titans have and make it worth while to bring them with subcap fleets. This increases movement and therefore chances for unexpected fights etc. Makes them useful in a wider range of situations.

It is a major acheivment in the game to obtain and fly a super/titan and it should continue to be rewarded. New players look at supers/titans in wonder and some want to eventually fly one. If the best ships in the game are nerfed people will be discouraged from training toward them.
LT Alter
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-03-06 22:12:11 UTC
Panther X wrote:
Bigotry is a state of mind where a person obstinately, irrationally, unfairly or intolerantly dislikes other people, ideas, etc; sorry but I'm not the one hatin' all over your post.


In the oxford dictionary bigotry is intolerance towards people with different opinions to your own. I accept your opinion that you want more income and usefulness of your supercarrier/carrier. My argument is based on the fact that using them in incursions and sites would be too safe for the potential isk income. Allowing them to go through accel gates gives them too much safety for the added bonus of extra sites to run. My reasoning is that if you spam d-scan (like you should when running sites), and watch local (like you should), then it's virtually impossible to catch that supercarrier and extremely difficult to catch the carrier. Sites and incursions are not static locations so you cannot log off trap hictors and dictors. Hictors and Dictors also can't warp cloaked and nothing can get into your site in one warp, they have to land on gate ( and decloak if they're a cloaky) then go through the gate to get to you. If you're paying attention you'll be long gone before they even get close.

Long story short, if you know what you're doing you will have almost perfect safety for your supercarrier/carrier. A lot like skynetting (which is getting removed for that exact reason).

In the end it doesn't really matter what my opinion {or yours) is, CCP have given their reasons for why the didn't allow carriers into incursions or through accel gates in the first place and it will take a lot better reason than, "I want to make more money with my capital ships," to get them to change their mind about it.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#26 - 2015-03-06 22:12:35 UTC
There's plenty to do with a supercapital, if you aren't afraid of losing it.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Iain Cariaba
#27 - 2015-03-06 22:21:25 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
There's plenty to do with a supercapital, if you aren't afraid of losing it.

This.

Also, parking them in a station so you can leave them there in total safety, then go do something else until you consider them useful again is not asking for something to do with it. Breaking the risk/reward balance of escalations and incursions is not the answer. If you think your super is useless, sell it to someone who will use it.
Reco Haywood
Zero Tolerance.
#28 - 2015-03-06 23:47:13 UTC
I believe in getting rid of the assisting (skynet).

+1 for some ideas and not just saying death to supers.
SootThis
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2015-03-07 00:30:20 UTC
LT Alter wrote:
Panther X wrote:


I did put on my flame retardant underwear before posting this.

Well, the Urobouros site does require at minimum what 40, 60 pilots to do at minimum influence? You can't tell me that is risk free, especially in nullsec. When was the last time you did an incursion? They are if anything risk free, especially in null sec. There's a reason that the big incursion groups offer an SRP. You still have to grind the influence down just to get the Mom to spawn from what I remember, and until you do, you are suffering from resistance, repping and damage penalties.

...

I thought people wanted more risk for their rewards. If want to go do pve with my shiny, and you want to pop me? Come get me. I'll make you work for it.



I never said incursions were unbalanced, I said doing them with carriers would be. Using a fleet of carriers to run them would be exponentially faster and safer. With carrier reps on field they aren't going to die. Not to mention cyno jammer constellation wide.

Panther X wrote:


Let's address that issue directly;

How many low slots does a thanny have? Six. Ok lets fit one for ratting; Damage Control? Check, Race specific hardener? Check. Capital repper? Check. DDA? I'll take 2. Plus an i-stab...that leaves me with....oh wait. I can't fit a warp core stab now. So my fast warp? Not so fast. Wait I'm switching targets...where did that ceptor come...oh im warp scrambled. Oh great ok, mobile depot, mobile depot, ok lets put those warp stabs...oh crap here's his buddies.

On paper yes that sounds great, but not so great in practice.

A ceptor can't tackle a super but a hictor can. You don't hunt carriers or supers with one ship, you hunt them in gangs. If you are looking for small pvp leave the carrier alone, find an easier target.

Your argument doesn't address what is happening now with carriers and supers in anomolies, so why bother? Carriers and supers get tackled all the time in anoms.


I did say mobile depot did I not? *Checks own post* Yup, I did. Now let's address your bigotry directly. Let's fit for rating (The way that a smart person would, if he could do it with a carrier)


  1. Damage Control? Don't need it.
  2. Race specific hardener? Don't need that either.
  3. Capital Repper? Barely need that but throw it on just in case.
  4. DDA? Yea sure we can take 2 of those.
  5. Inertia Stabilizers for quick warp? Take 2 of those (Can now warp in 1 MWD cycle)
  6. Hyperspacial Accelertor? Oh we still have space for that wow.
  7. Mobile depot I can rep with a capital remote repair and 6 warp stabs in the cargo hold? Check
  8. Directional Scanner and Emergency Cyno Alt? Depends how smart you are I guess.



Looks like the armchair quarterback, whom lost his carrier, https://zkillboard.com/kill/31721166/ did not follow his own advice of using a mobile depot..... or have any understanding of its mechanics.... and limitations.... but he did forget to put on his DCU, as he does not think its needed, nor did he bother with having bulkheads and spare bulkhead rigs in his cargo. The DCU not only gives a bonus to shields and armor, it conveys a 60% bonus to STRUCTURE across the board, allowing the pilot to tank effectively 2x the damage more. Races specific hardeners? seriously, you think you can tank with your resists so low that a curse could give you a very bad day.... and your Istabs.... work real well (sarcasm) against a pilot that is bumping you.... oh, and you think your just going to sit still for the 60 seconds it takes for your MD to online? and remain in range of it?.... guess you forgot about that idiot who scrammed you, and is bumping you..... while calling for reinforcements...... oh... you thought you could simply jump?.... aw.... to bad, not enough cap to make the jump cause your to busy repping the damage that is still incoming while your in a site with no resists mods, your cap is way below 71% and then there is the nice and quiet guy sneaking in a quiet recon, whom spots you, and lights a cyno right underneath your hull while he points you. There are a thousand ways to die in a cap/supercap.... and if you ever get caught with your pants down with no tank and you don't even have the proper mods in cargo/fleethanger, don;t be surprised at the massive trolling you are in for.
LT Alter
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-03-07 05:52:45 UTC
SootThis wrote:
Looks like the armchair quarterback, whom lost his carrier, https://zkillboard.com/kill/31721166/ did not follow his own advice of using a mobile depot..... or have any understanding of its mechanics.... and limitations.... but he did forget to put on his DCU, as he does not think its needed, nor did he bother with having bulkheads and spare bulkhead rigs in his cargo. The DCU not only gives a bonus to shields and armor, it conveys a 60% bonus to STRUCTURE across the board, allowing the pilot to tank effectively 2x the damage more. Races specific hardeners? seriously, you think you can tank with your resists so low that a curse could give you a very bad day.... and your Istabs.... work real well (sarcasm) against a pilot that is bumping you.... oh, and you think your just going to sit still for the 60 seconds it takes for your MD to online? and remain in range of it?.... guess you forgot about that idiot who scrammed you, and is bumping you..... while calling for reinforcements...... oh... you thought you could simply jump?.... aw.... to bad, not enough cap to make the jump cause your to busy repping the damage that is still incoming while your in a site with no resists mods, your cap is way below 71% and then there is the nice and quiet guy sneaking in a quiet recon, whom spots you, and lights a cyno right underneath your hull while he points you. There are a thousand ways to die in a cap/supercap.... and if you ever get caught with your pants down with no tank and you don't even have the proper mods in cargo/fleethanger, don;t be surprised at the massive trolling you are in for.


Well let's look here, sorry it's going to take me some time to read this wall of text with loads of useless periods and looks like it was written by a schizophrenic during an episode.

Ok, well your argument falls apart in the first sentence. This loss occurred 2013-07-05 23:38, mobile depots weren't introduced into the game until November that year.

Even if there were mobile depots at the time of that loss, you would still be wrong. Because I didn't lose that carrier while ratting, I lost it while moving. A friend lit a cyno on station, apparently he didn't do a very good job because I bounced off the station and was caught by the local residents snuff box.

Now that we've put that loss back in context let's put the rest of your block paragraph into the correct context.

"but he did forget to put on his DCU, as he does not think its needed," Well first off, let's put this into context. This entire thread is about letting carriers use acceleration gates. If I could go through acceleration gates with my carrier and I wanted to run a 10/10 DED complex with my carrier. Let us take The Maze for example. I can kill everything in each room before it gets through my non-tanked shields. Maybe by the 4th room they scratch my armor which is easily repaired by a single capital repair even if I had no other tank mod fit what-so-ever. I don't know if that sounds too easy to you, but for the possibility of making a couple billion, that sounds way to easy.

The gate's also protect me, the enemy has to go through each one to get to me. I'll see them coming from d-scan before they get into the first room. Even if it's an interceptor.

Quote:
and your Istabs.... work real well (sarcasm) against a pilot that is bumping you.... oh, and you think your just going to sit still for the 60 seconds it takes for your MD to online? and remain in range of it?.... guess you forgot about that idiot who scrammed you, and is bumping you..... while calling for reinforcements...... oh... you thought you could simply jump?.... aw.... to bad, not enough cap to make the jump cause your to busy repping the damage that is still incoming while your in a site with no resists mods, your cap is way below 71% and then there is the nice and quiet guy sneaking in a quiet recon, whom spots you, and lights a cyno right underneath your hull while he points you


My istabs let me warp before the enemy can get into my room of the site. Even an interceptor, but let's say hypothetically I messed up and a single interceptor caught me. (More than a 1 or 2 neutrals in local I'd be leaving the sight anyway, so yes only 1 interceptor) His backup has to warp to me, burn through gates, and then get on top of me. That interceptor alone has 0 chance of bumping me off a mobile depot. That's if I haven't already sent 13 warrior 2s or ec-300s chasing him down, forced him off and warped myself out. I have more than enough time to launch my mobile depot and refit. (It's in a DED site, he can't light a cyno for back up)


Anyway, you would be entirely right on most counts in the right context. However, you didn't take the time to look at the right context and now you look the fool you tried to make out of me. Right now, yes I can be caught, yes I can get killed in my carrier, but if CCP makes the changes the OP is suggesting then every point I just made about my safety with my carrier, becomes true.
Terraniel Aurelius
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2015-03-08 02:05:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Terraniel Aurelius
LT Alter wrote:
I'll see them coming from d-scan before they get into the first room. Even if it's an interceptor.



Unless it's a recon, of course. Then you have no warning until it uncloaks next to you and bridges a fleet in.
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2015-03-08 02:25:25 UTC  |  Edited by: d0cTeR9
No worries, CCP has super's covered.

They are turning them into barely, still as vulnerable, no more dps, mobile on-grid boosters.

LolLolLol

The only good coming out is when CCP decides to uber nerf something else (like frigate hulls, pve isk loot, mining, etc), we can then go laugh at those people that aren't happy with it, which are now screaming 'death to supers' because their T3 cruiser got plastered all over New Eden when they ganked some miner that had reinforcement in the system.

Been around since the beginning.
Makc Petrovic
some corp name with bunnies
#33 - 2015-03-08 03:00:02 UTC
Why do we have to keep taking notes from Faction warfare and such? Why not some WHs? why can we not have capital escalations put into null somehow? ones the require supers or something? You are nerfing super ratting why not replace it with some new mechanic to make up for it. Maybe rats that bubble inside of it to create risk.

We all complain about risk versus reward but there is a huge risk to supers just being unable to dock or having whole alliance make their task to hunt them every day all day. And not many people that have not had a super or tit will be able to associate the risk with it other than maybe high class Whers.

They will always be pvp assets just due tot he massive tanks and reps they can give. Having them be able to still provide support for any fleet any day.

Fighter assist mechanics I am on the fence about. While I love being able to skynet people and I think it should be a viable tactic. It is the advantage you should get when people come into you home system. And once again there is risk in the fact that they can get dded if they are ratting fit with about 3 titans. While not huge risk still risk. I also see where engaging a cepter fleet with 15 fighters can be incredibly annoying and over powered. Just like how a cepter fleet loaded with the new sov lasers could be incredibly over powered. In general interceptors are meant to intercept stuff and hold them down for brief periods of time. They should not be used to start sov wars. Its just ******** logic. Instead really anything battle cruiser and up should be able to instigate sov captures because that is what those ship are meant to do.

But that is a slightly different topic.
LT Alter
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2015-03-08 07:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: LT Alter
Terraniel Aurelius wrote:
LT Alter wrote:
I'll see them coming from d-scan before they get into the first room. Even if it's an interceptor.



Unless it's a recon, of course. Then you have no warning until it uncloaks next to you and bridges a fleet in.


This comment... What?

You sir, make a point that makes me question how I have not been caught by a recon while running level 5s yet.

Edit: "Uncloaks next to you and bridges a fleet in," Well only combat recons don't show on d-scan (They can't cloak) and you can't light cynos in sites or missions so... the more you know. You still make great point about the d-scan thing >.>
Iain Cariaba
#35 - 2015-03-08 19:09:32 UTC
Terraniel Aurelius wrote:
LT Alter wrote:
I'll see them coming from d-scan before they get into the first room. Even if it's an interceptor.



Unless it's a recon, of course. Then you have no warning until it uncloaks next to you and bridges a fleet in.

So the recon "uncloaks" and lights a cyno, not a big deal. Stationary target, say hello to a dozen heavy drones while your bridging fleet has to burn through all the acceleration gates to get to us. Want to place any bets on whether your recon dies before your friends can burn in? Your buddies get to watch the carrier moonwalk out of the site as they land on grid.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2015-03-08 21:04:46 UTC
Reproces them into cap construction componenets and keep till the better time.

For now there would be more than enough tears and bitching and firesales so why to bother.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
LT Alter
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-03-08 22:06:37 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Terraniel Aurelius wrote:
LT Alter wrote:
I'll see them coming from d-scan before they get into the first room. Even if it's an interceptor.



Unless it's a recon, of course. Then you have no warning until it uncloaks next to you and bridges a fleet in.

So the recon "uncloaks" and lights a cyno, not a big deal. Stationary target, say hello to a dozen heavy drones while your bridging fleet has to burn through all the acceleration gates to get to us. Want to place any bets on whether your recon dies before your friends can burn in? Your buddies get to watch the carrier moonwalk out of the site as they land on grid.


Well, the recon can't light a cyno in your site anyway so...
Tykonderoga
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2015-03-08 22:18:00 UTC
Dear CCP:

Thanks for making the "end game" in this game worthless. Something that takes years and years to train for and tens of billions of isk to obtain and fit is going to be made into a "niche" ship that is rarely taken out and has no offensive means to defend itself.

And don't tell me a 14x skill and tens of billions of isk is not end game, because it is. Stop seeing these ships as the problem, when it is YOUR LACK OF IMAGINATION THAT IS THE PROBLEM. I don't play the game to have an Ishtar as my ultimate goal; I play the game to have the sickest and most powerful ship to be in with the most to lose if I die. And if I die, I'll will lose tens of billions of isk in the hull alone and billions in implants.

SAVE THE SUPER AND BUFF THE TITAN. KEEP EVE EPIC. DON'T HAVE CRUISER HULLS BE THE END GAME. DOWN WITH MAKING EVE CAPTURE THE FLAG. SIC SEMPER TYRANIS = CCP FOZZIE.
LT Alter
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-03-08 22:29:56 UTC
Tykonderoga wrote:
Dear CCP:

Thanks for making the "end game" in this game worthless. Something that takes years and years to train for and tens of billions of isk to obtain and fit is going to be made into a "niche" ship that is rarely taken out and has no offensive means to defend itself.

And don't tell me a 14x skill and tens of billions of isk is not end game, because it is. Stop seeing these ships as the problem, when it is YOUR LACK OF IMAGINATION THAT IS THE PROBLEM. I don't play the game to have an Ishtar as my ultimate goal; I play the game to have the sickest and most powerful ship to be in with the most to lose if I die. And if I die, I'll will lose tens of billions of isk in the hull alone and billions in implants.

SAVE THE SUPER AND BUFF THE TITAN. KEEP EVE EPIC. DON'T HAVE CRUISER HULLS BE THE END GAME. DOWN WITH MAKING EVE CAPTURE THE FLAG. SIC SEMPER TYRANIS = CCP FOZZIE.


I agree with you, in the sense that they should not do what they are suggestion to supers/titans. However I disagree with you about it being the end game. While some people may consider it so, it is not for everyone. But we're getting off-topic for this thread so I digress.

P.S. CCP have been known to listen to reason and ignore ranting, if you truly want to change their mind I suggest talking about it without caps lock and without a temper.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#40 - 2015-03-09 15:08:29 UTC
Counter proposal:


  • CCP gives those pilots all the SP back to spend as they like.
  • A range of ships to the value of the Titans and Supers they hold now, which they can redeem in any station.
  • Titans and Supers are deleted.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
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