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Why so Split on Supers?

First post
Author
Kestral Anneto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-03-07 19:23:12 UTC
Ok, why is the community so split on Supers, or even Caps in general? Is it a simple case of jealousy of not having them, while others do? Why do people think that they are bad for the game? Why do people think that they are a good thing?
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#2 - 2015-03-07 19:26:35 UTC
They are terrible because CCP does not know what to do with them.
Batto Rem
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2015-03-07 19:34:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Batto Rem
Supers by themselves are fine. It is when you start having fleets of supers they become a problem. It also has to do with those that have them and those that don't. Those that have them don't want them getting nerfed because of all the time and effort they have spend getting them. Those that don't have supers see them as a kind of I win button. I can bring thousands of people into a fight but if you bring 100 supers. My thousands of people can't win.

I think CCP thought there was no real way to balance them, so they just F it and changed their role all together, since really balancing them would be....kind of impossible...or super difficult.
Kiandoshia
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2015-03-07 19:39:55 UTC
I think what Abazzar said is right. CCP doesn't know what they want to do with them. They used to know what they wanted to do with them but that was back in the days when a super capital was something special and a titan was rare and treasured and protected...

Nowadays, everyone has a carrier somewhere, every other player has a super somewhere and there are enough titans that people blow them up for ***** and giggles.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2015-03-07 19:51:36 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Ok, why is the community so split on Supers, or even Caps in general? Is it a simple case of jealousy of not having them, while others do? Why do people think that they are bad for the game? Why do people think that they are a good thing?


I own a Super, and I personally believe they are bad for the game (so that is your first theory torpedoed) - or more to the point, that the mechanics surrounding them are bad.

The problem is, they were never imagined to be fielded in numbers, and now people are able to field them in full fleets, the mechanics have broken down. Ultimately its the fault of the remote repair mechanics, not the ship in itself, they just have a big enough amount of hp that they are functionally invulnerable under reps (and since Supercarriers carry reps, they always will have them to hand) to everything other than more than itself (the very essence of the n+1 problem).

That said, you can't put the cork back in the bottle and just take them away, and any rebalance has got to take in to account the sheer number rattling around. I personally wouldn't care if they just removed them (I got mine to "compete" not because it was a personal goal, I would go back to Battleships and Battlecruisers without a murmur), but enough would that it is long past being an option.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#6 - 2015-03-07 20:06:17 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Ok, why is the community so split on Supers, or even Caps in general? Is it a simple case of jealousy of not having them, while others do? Why do people think that they are bad for the game? Why do people think that they are a good thing?


It's more than just "jealousy", it's an epidemic of impatience.

The new generation of instant gratification kids have attention spans of a goldfish, and don't want to wait a year of training. In other games, they can power level their way to the top in days. If they can't jump in at the top of the game, or buy their way in, they ***** "it's not fair".

Basically, they are a waste of oxygen.

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )

Kestrix
Nascent Omega
#7 - 2015-03-07 20:10:11 UTC
Thiers nothing wrong with capitals/supers in of themselves they are only a symptom of unlimited resources which leads to the numbers we have now and the ease to stock pile and replace losses.

Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#8 - 2015-03-07 20:18:10 UTC
Doubt I'd get a good chance to really use my super or titan now... not only can it be so fatiguing but apparently interceptors or something like that are the way of the future.

But we maybe needed to camp a gate when someone comes to end our dream

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#9 - 2015-03-07 20:26:41 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Ok, why is the community so split on Supers, or even Caps in general? Is it a simple case of jealousy of not having them, while others do? Why do people think that they are bad for the game? Why do people think that they are a good thing?




Bittervet here.

Supers have come to represent everything that is wrong with the structure of the game and the shortsightedness of the game's design. This has much to do with the blue donut and the stagnating of the game.

Infinite resources means supers supers supers. Even the world's superpowers have a limited number of carriers and battle groups. But infinite resources have provided simply more entrenched big dogs.

There have been numerous threads about the topic, so I won't go over everything. But for the most part the super is more of a symbol of a host of issues than a problem by itself.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Allant Doran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2015-03-07 20:36:53 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Ok, why is the community so split on Supers, or even Caps in general? Is it a simple case of jealousy of not having them, while others do? Why do people think that they are bad for the game? Why do people think that they are a good thing?


It's more than just "jealousy", it's an epidemic of impatience.

The new generation of instant gratification kids have attention spans of a goldfish, and don't want to wait a year of training. In other games, they can power level their way to the top in days. If they can't jump in at the top of the game, or buy their way in, they ***** "it's not fair".

Basically, they are a waste of oxygen.


I'm a middling player. I'm not a Vet, not a newbie, but I have been in and around Eve for a very long time on various characters.

So coming from that perspective, it has nothing to do with not being able to fly one. I actively do not want to fly a Supercapital-class Ship.

The problem is Proliferation. Supercapitals are very cool in theory. They are not cool when you, as people have said, consider that they can be fielded in numbers that are usually reserved for Subcapitals.

Supers are bad for the game due to the game's inherent 'You can get everything in EVE with time' style. What is meant to be rare and strong, suddenly becomes superfluous and overpowered.

I'm more likely to want to fly one now that these changes are in place just because it sounds like a more interesting role to fill than just ANOTHER form of DPS or Logistics.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
The Initiative.
#11 - 2015-03-07 20:50:30 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Ok, why is the community so split on Supers, or even Caps in general? Is it a simple case of jealousy of not having them, while others do? Why do people think that they are bad for the game? Why do people think that they are a good thing?

The biggest enemies of supers are living in high sec.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#12 - 2015-03-07 20:56:07 UTC
Allant Doran wrote:
Felicity Love wrote:
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Ok, why is the community so split on Supers, or even Caps in general? Is it a simple case of jealousy of not having them, while others do? Why do people think that they are bad for the game? Why do people think that they are a good thing?


It's more than just "jealousy", it's an epidemic of impatience.

The new generation of instant gratification kids have attention spans of a goldfish, and don't want to wait a year of training. In other games, they can power level their way to the top in days. If they can't jump in at the top of the game, or buy their way in, they ***** "it's not fair".

Basically, they are a waste of oxygen.


I'm a middling player. I'm not a Vet, not a newbie, but I have been in and around Eve for a very long time on various characters.

So coming from that perspective, it has nothing to do with not being able to fly one. I actively do not want to fly a Supercapital-class Ship.

The problem is Proliferation. Supercapitals are very cool in theory. They are not cool when you, as people have said, consider that they can be fielded in numbers that are usually reserved for Subcapitals.

Supers are bad for the game due to the game's inherent 'You can get everything in EVE with time' style. What is meant to be rare and strong, suddenly becomes superfluous and overpowered.

I'm more likely to want to fly one now that these changes are in place just because it sounds like a more interesting role to fill than just ANOTHER form of DPS or Logistics.




Indeed let me dispel the notion of "jealousy" and "quick gratification".

Anybody who plays the game for any amount of time begins to realize that bigger is not better. I have been at this game since 2006 and have never wanted to fly anything larger than a battle cruiser. When I'm in a battleship it's because there was a need to. I have yet to get any racial battleship skill past 4.

To be a super pilot is uncommon and takes a bit of commitment to the game that not every player is up for. You don't just "get a super and PWN the game", like hitting the max level of WoW or something and then getting purple drops in raids. A super takes a good deal of support and logistics to survive.

If someone is going to see some news article of some big supers brawl in Eve and then sign up all starry-eyed thinking they are going to be the fleet commander in the super, then it's actually good if they learn reality and leave dispirited. Reason for this? Anybody that impressionable is not going to make it here anyway. They are like the kids who watched "Top Gun" in the 80s and signed up thinking they were going to be F-14 pilots and do amazing stuff and "get the girl" in the end.



Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Elenahina
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2015-03-07 21:48:28 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Ok, why is the community so split on Supers, or even Caps in general? Is it a simple case of jealousy of not having them, while others do? Why do people think that they are bad for the game? Why do people think that they are a good thing?


They are bad for the game for a variety of reasons.
1) They can't really be balanced against the other ships.
2) Remote repair scalability means that they are nigh on invulnerable.
3) They never really had a purpose - they were really just giant epeen machines.

As long as there were only a few of them, it really wasn't a bad thing. It's when everyone and their brother started building them that they became a serious issue, largely because it meant that if you didn't have them, you couldn't compete anymore.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Nick Bete
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-03-07 21:56:59 UTC
CCP assumed when supers were put into game that their extremely high costs (to build and train for) would limit a small number of them to only the largest, most organized entities in the game. What they failed to take into account was that resources in Eve are effectively infinite. Over time as more groups and individuals have accumulated more wealth it's gotten to the point that supers are now within reach of nearly anyone who wants one. They've proliferated so greatly that pretty much any entity that doesn't want to be overrun by their neighbor's super fleets needs to field their own super fleet and so the cycle continues. It's probably that issue that has made people unhappiest.
Serene Repose
#15 - 2015-03-07 23:24:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
Well, you've got this ego stroking digital symbol of success, seniority and superiority (read: Linus's blanket) and you're just going to S N A T C H it away from the holder! Oh, but wait. You don't just YANK it. It gets heavier and heavier first, so heavy you want to put it down yourself, but the ego ride is strong so, you shift into self-justification overdrive in anticipation of what you surmise is ahead! THEN, when the truth becomes ominously apparent, you figure launching into a premature grief process will shake the digital deities sufficiently to keep your bleggy - hope against hope - but, it's an ego totem so it's not really hope. It's JUSTICE.

Soon, we'll see honest-to-God withdrawal from a collection of pixels (they always like to say just after they kill your ship). After all, it is only a GAME, RIGHT? "Never fly what you can't afford to lose." Was that it? Did I get that right?

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#16 - 2015-03-07 23:29:43 UTC
Why. When I was a lad we used to walk to Jita, in capitals, uphill both ways...in the snow....Shocked

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.

d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2015-03-08 03:31:11 UTC  |  Edited by: d0cTeR9
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Ok, why is the community so split on Supers, or even Caps in general? Is it a simple case of jealousy of not having them, while others do? Why do people think that they are bad for the game? Why do people think that they are a good thing?


#1 Caps/Supers used to be great, now they are too OP when someone fields hundreds of them (because hundreds of interceptors, T3 cruisers or BS aren't OP apparently...).

#2 They lack a clear role (unlike specialized ships which are... specialized). In this case, those ships are too powerful at 1 thing (especially when a bunch of those ships come together), and then suck really bad at other's... so people get 'stuck' with them, especially super's.

#3 A LOT of people are jealous they can't field them, or not field enough. Instead of working harder, it's better to ***** & moan about it so someone else does something about it (it's the mentality of the latest generation).

#4 A LOT of people also jump on the bandwagon (i.e: grrr goons, death to supers, etc), usually because of a he said/she said, or simply their pimp tengu got wtfpwned by half a dozen caps when they didn't use a scout to go roaming in someone's space.

#5 Those capital and supercapital ships are extremely skill intensive, even more now than before. Because of that, people feel cheated when they get nerfed. Personally, i would be interested in getting proper roles for my supers to be useful to my alliance/corp/myself, instead of this blind nerfing left/right with zero consideration from CCP to it's more senior members (try putting 10 years into a game, even on/off...).

Been around since the beginning.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#18 - 2015-03-08 03:38:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Kestral Anneto wrote:
... Is it a simple case of jealousy of not having them, while others do?...
You are asking that of a community where thousands can fly all of the sub caps of a given race and key top ones of another?
With great frequency I see logi pilots swop from Scimi to Guardian then to other high skill required sub cap ships.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2015-03-08 03:40:53 UTC
Supercapitals were introduced to the game with a design brief of "hurrr make them KEWL and AWESUM!" rather than anything that actually makes sense within the game and nobody at CCP has the slightest clue how to put this right.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#20 - 2015-03-08 04:37:42 UTC
Supers were initially balanced on cost and have continued to be balanced in that way. This works fine in the real world because there's a finite amount of resources available to any given nation/player in the game. But in eve resources are not finite, and they always accrue, this essentially eliminates the cost balancing factor over time.

If supers were easier to kill this would be a mitigating factor, but they aren't. The pilots tend to be very risk adverse (For good reason), and the functional invulnerability to ewar/tackle save dictors/hictors means any kill on them is basically time limited.

As far as the idiot from SMA saying that these things are rare and the ability to pilot them is as well.... no.

There are probably more people in game that can fly a SC (Because it's skillset is functionally identical to those of a carrier, it's only one additional skillbook) than can competently fly a black ops bs.
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