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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#1341 - 2015-03-04 14:19:52 UTC
As many people I think the prime time feature feels wrong. But I am going to slap on the Devil's Advocate hat. Also, my null sec experience is limited.

One advantage is it allows smaller entities to more effectively defend their space. If you need 24/7 response times you need all TZ covered. This is not reasonable until you get some sort of critical mass. So perhaps this feature will enable smaller alliances, which might produce more targets? Easier to turn that blue to red if they are not in your alliance?

Once you don't NEED these people to cover your off hours your group might be more likely to go off on their own. And this will eventually solve the problem of people feeling they are not contributing to their alliance due to timing. They would probably navigate to alliances that meet their play style and TZ.


Now one problem this can cause, especially with the force projection nerf, is pockets of time. I would imagine the sov would eventually form into pockets of prime time separated by other pockets of time. But once this occurs, large scale/multi TZ alliances will once again be needed if people want to expand. As long as there is a reason to expand :)

Again, I agree, the prime time feature feels wrong, but perhaps it will shake things up. And it seems like that might be needed.

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie

flaming phantom
Unlimited LTD
#1342 - 2015-03-04 14:19:55 UTC
So what's the rest of the fleet supposed to do while the couple people are using their entosis mods on the strucutures? Sound even more boring than shooting things, at least that way the entire group was actually doing something. If I rival fleet doesn't show up, then things will get really boring really quick because anyone without an entosis mod isn't doing anything at all


Otherwise, I think the timer sounds good so you don't have to wake up at weird time. You won't be able to help your alliance though if they make a primte time other than your normal time so easily...
The command nodes osunds cool in hopes of getting more smaller fights. I could see needing to send reinforcements to other nodes and stuff. sounds fun and dynamic

I do think that splitting control of soverignty and station control is kind of stupid. So in theory it would be possible for some alliance to have soverignty, but not benefit from the ihub or station? I just don't see the point of soverignty other than having your name on the map...woohoo....
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1343 - 2015-03-04 14:22:39 UTC
Kah'Les wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
So someone with 100 titans can jump them in and initiate a sov change instantly/quickly, while the newbies have to do whatever it is you want them to do instead of using the entosis link to grind it out up to 40 minutes?


Yes! You will still have a defensive timer that anyone can show up too. 100 titans alone can't kill any sub cap. The game is not supposed to be fair, noobs are not supposed to be able to do the same as a long time veteran.

As I said, that's the wrong line of thinking, even if we ignore the fallacy that titans can't kill subcaps, and this won't fly. Try again.


I don't see why thinking someone with 50 mill SP can do more than someone with 5 mill SP is a fals way of thinking. It's all there in the numbersRoll

Because you're doing the "b-b-but my skillpoints!" fallacy line. SP doesn't mean squat if it's not properly focused.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1344 - 2015-03-04 14:24:55 UTC
Bonzair wrote:
you will loose a lot of people. again.



You mean the same lots of people that would leave when phoebe hit.. and in fact increased the amount of people playing?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1345 - 2015-03-04 14:26:51 UTC
flaming phantom wrote:
So what's the rest of the fleet supposed to do while the couple people are using their entosis mods on the strucutures? Sound even more boring than shooting things, at least that way the entire group was actually doing something. If I rival fleet doesn't show up, then things will get really boring really quick because anyone without an entosis mod isn't doing anything at all


Otherwise, I think the timer sounds good so you don't have to wake up at weird time. You won't be able to help your alliance though if they make a primte time other than your normal time so easily...
The command nodes osunds cool in hopes of getting more smaller fights. I could see needing to send reinforcements to other nodes and stuff. sounds fun and dynamic

I do think that splitting control of soverignty and station control is kind of stupid. So in theory it would be possible for some alliance to have soverignty, but not benefit from the ihub or station? I just don't see the point of soverignty other than having your name on the map...woohoo....


The idea is EXACLTY to not bring HUGE fleets. Will be FAR FAR smarter to spread in several smaller fleets and hit LOTS of places at same time.


That will create opportunities for more fights of smaller size.


Will create MORE fights. Because as of now, if the attacker brings more ships, there is no fight at ALL. With new system, if attackers want to blob they must be very inneficient. If they want to be efficient they risk have one of the fraction of their fleets engaged.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kah'Les
hirr
Pandemic Horde
#1346 - 2015-03-04 14:27:23 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
So someone with 100 titans can jump them in and initiate a sov change instantly/quickly, while the newbies have to do whatever it is you want them to do instead of using the entosis link to grind it out up to 40 minutes?


Yes! You will still have a defensive timer that anyone can show up too. 100 titans alone can't kill any sub cap. The game is not supposed to be fair, noobs are not supposed to be able to do the same as a long time veteran.

As I said, that's the wrong line of thinking, even if we ignore the fallacy that titans can't kill subcaps, and this won't fly. Try again.


I don't see why thinking someone with 50 mill SP can do more than someone with 5 mill SP is a fals way of thinking. It's all there in the numbersRoll

Because you're doing the "b-b-but my skillpoints!" fallacy line. SP doesn't mean squat if it's not properly focused.


Ok, I'm gone stop here because you are starting to side track the argument we not talking about where the SP are located or how focused the pilot is, Bottom line is a 5 mill SP pilot can't fly and do as much as a 50 mill SP pilot and he can defently not fly a titan with 5 mill SP.

My ground argument is Doomsday should be able to to speed up structor grind., not a Link that can be used by a 2 mill SP character.
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#1347 - 2015-03-04 14:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Commander Zakarygobcev wrote:
Thanks for destroying my caps and then my home, RIP null, good morning tardceptors, ill sit in HS shipspinning till i unistall and just log on the forums to **** talk and say how good it was in the time before the game died, i just hope you kill hs players with no more concord as compensation I would only **** a bunch of those idiots all day in hs with gank ships with bros till they fuckign unsubscribe. Certain guys responding on this post without a fuckign clue on what they are talking about, the best scrubs are the caldari state ******* saying its all good, ******* brats, *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.


little bee, little bee, little bee, little bee
always take your medicine, little bee
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#1348 - 2015-03-04 14:28:08 UTC
Sadly I think null is about to get the low sec treatment where the greater majority of it is a wasteland that's not worth fighting over and the rest is populated by stabbed shitships orbiting some sort of button.
Kah'Les
hirr
Pandemic Horde
#1349 - 2015-03-04 14:29:59 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Bonzair wrote:
you will loose a lot of people. again.



You mean the same lots of people that would leave when phoebe hit.. and in fact increased the amount of people playing?


You sure that's not because CCP made a awesome trailer video and have nothing about the patch to do? At least in my alliance I seen a great dip in activaty since Phoebe and we acually do null stuff.
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#1350 - 2015-03-04 14:32:31 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselFinance
Manfred Sideous wrote:

Arrow Besides the name on the map why would anyone choose to move to nullsec? ( Incursions , level 5's already offer more isk per hour than nullsec. ).

I think this has been pointed out before and ccp just talks about that most isk comes from nullsec.

I strongly suspect CCP only is looking at isk, not wealth, so the LP "doesn't count" and neither do minerals, etc.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1351 - 2015-03-04 14:34:50 UTC
Kah'Les wrote:
My ground argument is Doomsday should be able to to speed up structor grind., not a Link that can be used by a 2 mill SP character.

Linking a ship which requires sov to build, to taking sov, is an inherently flawed catch-22, and the point of how the capture mechanism is right now is that it IS easy(ish) to defend against. A titan can go in there, splort splorf its DD then ride its EHP buffer until it can receive RR again. Just no.
flaming phantom
Unlimited LTD
#1352 - 2015-03-04 14:36:50 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
flaming phantom wrote:
So what's the rest of the fleet supposed to do while the couple people are using their entosis mods on the strucutures? Sound even more boring than shooting things, at least that way the entire group was actually doing something. If I rival fleet doesn't show up, then things will get really boring really quick because anyone without an entosis mod isn't doing anything at all


Otherwise, I think the timer sounds good so you don't have to wake up at weird time. You won't be able to help your alliance though if they make a primte time other than your normal time so easily...
The command nodes osunds cool in hopes of getting more smaller fights. I could see needing to send reinforcements to other nodes and stuff. sounds fun and dynamic

I do think that splitting control of soverignty and station control is kind of stupid. So in theory it would be possible for some alliance to have soverignty, but not benefit from the ihub or station? I just don't see the point of soverignty other than having your name on the map...woohoo....


The idea is EXACLTY to not bring HUGE fleets. Will be FAR FAR smarter to spread in several smaller fleets and hit LOTS of places at same time.


That will create opportunities for more fights of smaller size.


Will create MORE fights. Because as of now, if the attacker brings more ships, there is no fight at ALL. With new system, if attackers want to blob they must be very inneficient. If they want to be efficient they risk have one of the fraction of their fleets engaged.



Good point I guess. all in the pursuit of more, smaller fights, which isn't a bad thing.

Still find it weird about splitting soverignty and station control, but w/e
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1353 - 2015-03-04 14:37:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Speedkermit Damo
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Gremoxx wrote:

AFK / cloaked camps will need to be fixed. Anyone who interrupts industrial / ratting activity is basically declaring war by default, as indexes will drop and capturing the system will be easier.



That looks to have been intentional, bro. This is close as you can get to CCP outright stamping approval on cloaky camping.


Yes, it's as if CCP doesn't actually want pilots to undock and engage in activities in space.

Which is another point. The fighting for sov is all very interesting, but I don't see many reasons to bother fighting for sov. Most nullsec space is virtually worthless. The best nullsec space is actually the NPC pockets with pirate level 4 missions.

I lived in Providence for a year and trying to scrape a living running anomolies was soul-destroying and I could barely afford to keep myself in pvp ships. Many anomolies are worthless, nobody ever runs them. Even the best ones don't make great isk.

Bottom up income sources in nullsec need to be buffed - a lot, because right now most space just isn't worth fighting over.

One other important point. WTF is the CSM? I haven't seem a single post from a current CSM member in this thread with an opinion on these proposals. Neither have I seem any of the candidates for CSM sharing their opinions (except for Xenuria and he doesn't count). I want to know what the nullsec candidates in particular think about all this.

Manny, Endie, Corebloodbrothers - where are you?

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Kah'Les
hirr
Pandemic Horde
#1354 - 2015-03-04 14:39:02 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
My ground argument is Doomsday should be able to to speed up structor grind., not a Link that can be used by a 2 mill SP character.

Linking a ship which requires sov to build, to taking sov, is an inherently flawed catch-22, and the point of how the capture mechanism is right now is that it IS easy(ish) to defend against. A titan can go in there, splort splorf its DD then ride its EHP buffer until it can receive RR again. Just no.


Linking a ship that takes 30 min to build and cost 100 mill to take sov is even a worse idea. And to take sov you need to be a established alliance or coallition getting titans are not that hard anymore.
Tiberian Deci
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1355 - 2015-03-04 14:39:57 UTC
I think I've seen it suggested in a couple other places in this thread but I really like the idea of declaring primetime by corp, not alliance. That way whichever corps that hold sov can have their systems come out in their primetime and still get fights instead of being chained to the dominant TZ of their alliance.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1356 - 2015-03-04 14:40:02 UTC
It's been what, 6 years of Dominion Sov (which was an over-reaction to the system that came before it, just like this new system seems to be)? My question is simple, if (erm when) the flaws of this system make themselves known, will it be 2021 before it's fixed?
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1357 - 2015-03-04 14:40:16 UTC
Kah'Les wrote:
Linking a ship that takes 30 min to build and cost 100 mill to take sov is even a worse idea.

Why? Why shouldn't relatively new and inexperienced people be able to give it a go in unused/undefended space? Is sov supposed to be only for the elitist few?
Tykonderoga
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1358 - 2015-03-04 14:40:50 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
My ground argument is Doomsday should be able to to speed up structor grind., not a Link that can be used by a 2 mill SP character.

Linking a ship which requires sov to build, to taking sov, is an inherently flawed catch-22, and the point of how the capture mechanism is right now is that it IS easy(ish) to defend against. A titan can go in there, splort splorf its DD then ride its EHP buffer until it can receive RR again. Just no.



Then by all means, invade us before the summer and let is "spalrf, splarf" all over you. After summer, see you in an interceptor, baby!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1359 - 2015-03-04 14:41:15 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:

Which is another point. The fighting for sov is all very interesting, but I don't see many reasons to bother fighting for sov. Most nullsec space is virtually worthless. The best nullsec space is actually the NPC pockets with pirate level 4 missions.


That's my second post in the thread.

They've created what seems to be an improvement on a system that generates and enables conflict.

But where are the farms and fields? Where is the incentive to actually live there, besides just the **** trophy of planting a flag?

As for the CSM, there are two possibilities here. Either they already knew and had their say by now, or they got caught with their pants down and haven't formulated a response yet. Pick whichever you please until someone corrects me.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#1360 - 2015-03-04 14:41:23 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
Linking a ship that takes 30 min to build and cost 100 mill to take sov is even a worse idea.

Why? Why shouldn't relatively new and inexperienced people be able to give it a go in unused/undefended space? Is sov supposed to be only for the elitist few?



Ummm Yes.