These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Covert ops cynos in highsec

Author
Arden Elenduil
Unlimited Ripoff Works
#1 - 2015-03-03 23:51:44 UTC
With the "recent" changes to jump capable ships, I figured it's a good time to revisit this particular suggestion.

My proposition is to simply allow people to light, and jump/bridge to, covert cynos in highsec.
This would enable a wealth of new tactical options for combat in highsec and give black ops ships a rather significant boost to their possible areas of operation.

It's a relatively easy change to implement, and it makes sense in the lore as well (the reason why capital ships can't enter highsec systems is because they're cynojammed. In nullsec, cynojammers do not prevent covops cynos from being lit, which is a particular strength of them.
It would also fit in rather well with the current storyline that the capsuleers are gaining in power over the empires. This would be one way that we could "circumvent" the policies of the empires.

Naturally, jumping to covert cynos in highsec wouldn't be without consequences. Especially not with the neutral alts that are all over the place.
There are already some significant drawbacks involved in blopsing. Namely the requirement for both a Cyno V character (easy enough to have), and more importantly, a Black ops (and bridging capable) character with preferably JDC V (which is NOT easy to have). On top of that, a significant investment of isk (varies) and the proper organization to properly execute black ops maneuvers.

This however, is not enough. Some additional rules have to be established.
Mainly that every single ship involved in Black Ops operations in highsec will automatically be assigned a suspect flag. This goes for the ship lighting the cyno, the ships bridging, being bridged and jumping. Every single one.
Furthermore, I'm halfway partial to having a ship fitted with a covops cyno in highsec that is online be flagged as suspect as default setting. Just to give targets a bit of a heads up about what's going to happen if they stick around. (to prevent too big of an advantage to using neutral alts, even though they'll only be useful against a target once if they're clever).

Possible worries (these are arguments against that I've heard before in the past)
This change makes transportation too easy.
It might've been that way, but jump fatigue and the range jumps handily take care of that problem. It's very likely to be faster to simply use a blockade runner and transport goods that way, unless they're contraband, in which case using blops in highsec will finally give you a way to circumvent the customs scans (it'll still be slower than regular transportation).

Our mining ops might get hotdropped without warning during a war now.
The suspect flag on the cynoship will give you a heads up, furthermore, you can take steps to protect yourself. And it's not like cynos are "THAT" instantaneous)
(on a side note, what are you doing mining during a war...)

You could easily bridge highsec to highsec to avoid lowsec between islands and main highsec.
Blockade runners have very limited cargo capacity compared to Jump Freighters, some types of goods can't even be carried because their holds are too small. Furthermore, Blockade runners should never even die when traversing lowsec via gates, barring some freak happestance.


Thoughts?
Kestral Anneto
Black Trident
#2 - 2015-03-04 00:17:19 UTC
+1 from me, although i don't think that they should get a suspect flag, but i'll take what i can get.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#3 - 2015-03-04 00:30:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Regnar
I like the idea of it being done right but if CCP do it they will just catter to carebears and make highsec even safer to traverse for high value goods and to avoid wardecs.

+1 to combat
-1 to combat avoidance
-9001 to ccp messing everything up

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#4 - 2015-03-04 01:53:55 UTC
-1 suspect flag or not this would give far to big of an advantage to war dec corps against new players who already have very few options.


currently a player who has been wardeced and is paying attention can warp to a station so long as they are more than 3 AU away in something smaller than a battle ship and starts the warp once they see the star in local.


with this change they now can do almost nothing if someone so much as shows up with a suspect flag and if they can swap to a cov cyno from a mobile depot just off grid they won't have much chance at all.


a cyno isn't instant no, but it is far faster then the align time of most ships
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#5 - 2015-03-04 02:36:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
I only need the affects of this on newer players as pointed out by Lugh Crow-Slave ito give this one a -1.

If you want to use your covert cyno's to hot drop people that is what the nul and low sec regions of space are for, go forth and have fun.
If you think high sec is to safe then get out and make it less safe using the reasonably well balanced set of tools that are already in the game.

There are hundreds of valid reasons why cyno's and cap ship are not allowed in high sec and it needs to stay that way.
So just in case you may have missed it earlier.

-1 to another really bad idea on how to change high sec.
Arden Elenduil
Unlimited Ripoff Works
#6 - 2015-03-04 02:47:23 UTC
To reply to your posts. While I agree that it's something that warrants concern due to the "instant" nature of cynos. I feel that the danger is quite overrated.
If a player flies intelligently during a war, one could even remove local and be perfectly safe.

One simple reason for this, aligning.
Mining or running missions while aligned is very much possible (just swap between different celestials/stations as needed) and the second something, anything hits grid, you're out.

People could of course compensate by trying to use a suicide alt to tackle, but then we start going into hypothetical areas, and it still wouldn't help if you warped out straight away at the slightest whiff of anyone in a belt (or when mining in a mission).

And cynos can't even be lit inside missions. Or at least not accelleration pockets. So you'd still be quite safe there.
Matsudaira Takuma
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-03-04 02:53:21 UTC
This isn't actually a bad idea at all. My trading and hauling industry revolves mostly around high value, low volume goods. At the moment I am having to use a completely brick tanked Tengu which I've pumped a lot of isk into. With cov ops cynos I could potentially load up a blockade runner and transport the goods in a far safer way whilst also managing to avoid the obvious and very dangerous pipe systems.

While I am effectively already at the end game, ship wise, for my trade. New players would be able to set this up far faster and with less capital than I needed and could finally give me a bit of competition. I'm going to +1 this.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#8 - 2015-03-04 03:01:33 UTC
Arden Elenduil wrote:
To reply to your posts. While I agree that it's something that warrants concern due to the "instant" nature of cynos. I feel that the danger is quite overrated.
If a player flies intelligently during a war, one could even remove local and be perfectly safe.

One simple reason for this, aligning.
Mining or running missions while aligned is very much possible (just swap between different celestials/stations as needed) and the second something, anything hits grid, you're out.

People could of course compensate by trying to use a suicide alt to tackle, but then we start going into hypothetical areas, and it still wouldn't help if you warped out straight away at the slightest whiff of anyone in a belt (or when mining in a mission).

And cynos can't even be lit inside missions. Or at least not accelleration pockets. So you'd still be quite safe there.


but we aren't talking about the effect this would have in a game where we all know what we are doing we are talking about wardecs against small to med corps full of players who have been playing less than a year
Arden Elenduil
Unlimited Ripoff Works
#9 - 2015-03-04 03:10:16 UTC
Well, if we're talking along the same lines of thought, then the same argument you make could be made about duels (depending on age of the player), wars in general, awoxes (for as far as they still exist) and suicide ganking.

Compared to these things, covops drops would actually be rather rare because of the entry level in terms of skill and isk required.
It wouldn't be that common to start with.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#10 - 2015-03-04 05:06:58 UTC
Too many neutrals.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#11 - 2015-03-04 05:31:49 UTC
Arden Elenduil wrote:
Well, if we're talking along the same lines of thought, then the same argument you make could be made about duels (depending on age of the player), wars in general, awoxes (for as far as they still exist) and suicide ganking.

Compared to these things, covops drops would actually be rather rare because of the entry level in terms of skill and isk required.
It wouldn't be that common to start with.




except awoxers have been nerfed to a point that they can't do much to the average player in HS duels can be ignored and even week old players can learn to understand the emblem of a war target and dock up when that appears in local.

and the "barrier to entry" you have is only about three moths for a bridge capable blops so it's not very high.

if you had to be in the same corp to light the cyno then I would not see much of a problem but adding this limitation would poorly affect game play outside of HS and making to a rule that only applies to HS would just get confusing
Don Purple
Snuggle Society
#12 - 2015-03-04 06:50:53 UTC
I support this idea, the danger to new pilots is pretty low compared to say a cloaky warp in and an interceptor.
The arguements agaisnt new players safety is paltry.

Who says this doesnt help new players? This would give corps the ability to fight back in a hit and run manner.
It does not take long to train into a stealth bomber, and with one capable player a group of low sp guys could fight back in an interesting way.

The idea of covops and stealth bombers is usually looked forward to by new players as well. This could be content to keep them interested.

I am just here to snuggle and do spy stuff.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#13 - 2015-03-04 08:45:35 UTC
Liked this in the past, still like it now.

1. You have to be using a ship that can light a covert cyno. These arent the tankiest ships in the game (except OP T3). Go suspect and sit still with a target on their head.
2. You can only jump in with ships that can use a covert cloak. Again, these are not the hardiest of ships in the game. (except OP T3)
3. Its little different than baiting with a drake whilst the vindi/guardian fleet waits one jump out. The main difference being that the types of ships you can use are restricted.

(TLDR: nerf OP T3)

It doesnt make the war dec system any noob-stompier than it already is. If you wanna stomp noobs, the current system enables that quite well already.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#14 - 2015-03-04 09:12:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Arden Elenduil wrote:
Thoughts?

No. Cynos. In. High sec.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
1. You have to be using a ship that can light a covert cyno. These arent the tankiest ships in the game (except OP T3). Go suspect and sit still with a target on their head.
2. You can only jump in with ships that can use a covert cloak. Again, these are not the hardiest of ships in the game. (except OP T3)
3. Its little different than baiting with a drake whilst the vindi/guardian fleet waits one jump out. The main difference being that the types of ships you can use are restricted.

You call a Stratios not OP? It has easily more tank, more damage and more utility than any Covert T3. Bombers insta you every sub-cap ship in the game if there are enough of them and they are tanky enough to withstand a lot of damage if flown correctly.

Furthermore, you can just have the Covert Cyno offline for travel to avoid the suspect flag and online it quickly once at the target.

And another one: Risk-free travel in space to skip Low sec entirely? If you have to cross Low sec to get to an island, it is meant to be a little bit dangerous. You have to bridge into the adjacent Low sec and potentially intercepted with a smartbomber on the High sec gate (Hello Rancer, Hello Hagilur, Hello Amamake, and so on). If you can just skip these contact points, you allow completely risk-free travel through space. Suspect flags mean nothing to you as you can just wait them out or ignore them completely as nearly no player will lock and shoot you anyways, especially not in areas with lower population density or lower gate-traffic a bit off the beaten paths.

This is all nice and dandy in Low/Null sec, but High sec ought not to have things that define Low/Null sec.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Samillian
Angry Mustellid
Lost Obsession
#15 - 2015-03-04 09:19:41 UTC
If you want to play with the nice toys move to the right space for them.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law

Arden Elenduil
Unlimited Ripoff Works
#16 - 2015-03-04 11:37:10 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Arden Elenduil wrote:
Thoughts?

No. Cynos. In. High sec.

You call a Stratios not OP? It has easily more tank, more damage and more utility than any Covert T3. Bombers insta you every sub-cap ship in the game if there are enough of them and they are tanky enough to withstand a lot of damage if flown correctly.

And another one: Risk-free travel in space to skip Low sec entirely? If you have to cross Low sec to get to an island, it is meant to be a little bit dangerous. You have to bridge into the adjacent Low sec and potentially intercepted with a smartbomber on the High sec gate (Hello Rancer, Hello Hagilur, Hello Amamake, and so on). If you can just skip these contact points, you allow completely risk-free travel through space. Suspect flags mean nothing to you as you can just wait them out or ignore them completely as nearly no player will lock and shoot you anyways, especially not in areas with lower population density or lower gate-traffic a bit off the beaten paths.

This is all nice and dandy in Low/Null sec, but High sec ought not to have things that define Low/Null sec.


Well, I did mention that it's already easy enough to avoid those systems. Properly flown you should never die to a smartbomber (I always bounce between celestials even in lowsec if the other gate isn't on dscan).
Furthermore, don't jump freighters already avoid it completely of flow properly, with a lot more cargo space to their name?
Sure, they have to cyno into lowsec, but anyone knows that in all normal circumstances a jump freighter should never, ever die.
You cyno in on station and warp directly to the gate.

As for the stratios, yes, they're quite strong, this is true. But you can't just judge a system based on 1 part. You need to take everything into account. You not only need the stratioses, but you also need at least 1 black ops ship, 1 cyno ship, fuel (which ain't cheap) on top of your regular amount of ships.
Oh, and bombers, they do volley other ships, just the same as every other ship does in sufficient quantities. That quote does make me wonder if you've got extensive experience flying bombers in any case.
Torps are known to have terrible damage application on anything smaller than a battlecruiser.

Staigor
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#17 - 2015-03-04 18:15:35 UTC
I couldn't agree with this more. It's not like we can use bombs in high sec, so its not really going to affect that, and we can't bring in any capitals, so that's fine too.
Phelane Wolfe
The Count of Monte Christo
#18 - 2015-03-04 18:17:24 UTC
+1 from me!!
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2015-03-04 18:26:56 UTC
-1. While a competent players would not find avoiding this too much of a problem, it would primarily be used to surprise kill people the newer, younger, less knowledgable players that define highsec.

If you were restricted in highsec to only bridging to a cyno lit by a member of your corp (and thus a char that would also be in the wardec), then maybe. But staying alert and aligned at all times to avoid surprise cynos lit by neutrals would be an excessive bar for demanding vigilance.

Even in null and low and WH space it's possible to pick out the people who are there to kill you (and have freedom to do so without consequences). It's called "anyone not blue".

I'd rather not see the next wave of newbies be griefed out of the game by getting constantly dropped on through a method they don't understand and can't predict before they even manage to muster up the courage to leave highsec.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#20 - 2015-03-04 18:36:37 UTC
Arden Elenduil wrote:
[As for the stratios, yes, they're quite strong, this is true. But you can't just judge a system based on 1 part. You need to take everything into account. You not only need the stratioses, but you also need at least 1 black ops ship, 1 cyno ship, fuel (which ain't cheap) on top of your regular amount of ships.
Oh, and bombers, they do volley other ships, just the same as every other ship does in sufficient quantities. That quote does make me wonder if you've got extensive experience flying bombers in any case.
Torps are known to have terrible damage application on anything smaller than a battlecruiser.

We already have taken 4 parts of the Covert gameplay into account: Cloaky T3 are too powerful, Stratios/Astero are too powerful, Bombers are too powerful, Bridging cloaky haulers from system to system without Low sec danger potential is too powerful. What's left? Cover Ops frigates. Roll

I also recommend to check my killboard first before you question my Bomber experience (Fortunately, you have to do that on your own as we are not allowed to link killmails in this forum. Just a hint, go back to the time from Oct 2013 to Dec 2013). Quite in contrast, I can question your experience with bombers after your statement that torp damage application is terrible on smaller ships. You clearly do not take the huge Ewar utility of bombers into account. Blink

Your justification that any ship in sufficient numbers can alpha a target is also a very questionable straw man argument as these ships cannot be bridged in High sec onto other people and have to take gates/warp around and can thus be spotted early by gate scouts.

All in all: My -1 remains and cynos ought to remain a Low/Null sec exclusive.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

12Next page