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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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CCP Changes

First post
Author
Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia
#1 - 2015-03-02 18:46:37 UTC
Why do the Devs when trying to rebalance or fix a "overpowered" ship or piece of equipment always seem to lead towards reducing the stats or abilities of that item, instead of raising the level of the under performing ships and systems?

People have to spend a lot of time (literally years!) and money training into one of these type of vessels and being able to fly it well. Then CCP creates a nerf and that makes that ship type obsolete. It would seem more agreeable to make the under performing ships and weapon systems more appealing by raising their stats and abilities rather than reducing the effectiveness of a popular ship type or weapon system.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2015-03-02 18:48:34 UTC
Styphon the Black wrote:
Why do the Devs when trying to rebalance or fix a "overpowered" ship or piece of equipment always seem to lead towards reducing the stats or abilities of that item, instead of raising the level of the under performing ships and systems?

People have to spend a lot of time (literally years!) and money training into one of these type of vessels and being able to fly it well. Then CCP creates a nerf and that makes that ship type obsolete. It would seem more agreeable to make the under performing ships and weapon systems more appealing by raising their stats and abilities rather than reducing the effectiveness of a popular ship type or weapon system.


A nerf to one ship is an indirect buff to all others. It's therefore easier to tone down one thing than try to prop up everything else.
Phig Neutron
Starbreaker and Sons
#3 - 2015-03-02 19:02:24 UTC
They have some experience with this sort of thing, and they're probably doing it better than you or I would.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2015-03-02 19:39:24 UTC
Eve is not like other games in that there is no level cap that they can keep raising and there is no new season of gear. They can't just continually buff things like other MMOs do. In a game like WoW you can buff one or two classes or spells or what ever and since you'll be getting a new PvP season or a new raid tier or a new expansion or something like that is always a couple months a way so you can just continually creep up. Power creep like that would destroy eve so they have to continue to keep the ship classes generally where they are.

If CCP were to give into the power creep scenario that you are talking about the NPCs would get easier and easier to fight. Then isk per hour would go up which would then mean that prices of everything would go up which would just further increase the barrier of entry for newer players.

I don't agree with the balancing act that CCP is doing right now. I think it is a bad road to go down that just opens them up to constant problems in a game that was reasonably well balanced in the ways that it needed to be. Now they are seeking balance in all the wrong ways IMHO.

Each races ship line ups used to have a niche that they filled. They each had a role and depending on what you like to do, you could find a racial ship line up that worked well for you. Now they keep trying to make it so that all ships get used exactly the same. So now let's say if Goons come up with a new ship doctrine and one specific ship get used a lot more all of the sudden just because it's a required ship by some huge alliance that accounts for large amounts of PvP and that ship sees a lot more action as a result, that ship now will get nerfed just based on the fact that a lot of people are flying it. It does not matter if the ship is over powered or dead even perfectly balanced.

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J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2015-03-02 19:48:18 UTC
Is This even serious?

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2015-03-02 19:52:51 UTC
Phig Neutron wrote:
They have some experience with this sort of thing, and they're probably doing it better than you or I would.

I don't think that is wise to assume because these guys have been developing this game for a long time that they know how to balance things. I'm sure that they know how to code this game much better than you or I but game developers in this game and others often have a disconnect from how the game actually works. If you think about it, it is difficult to focus on playing the game when you spend all day working on the back end of stuff.

A player that only plays the game has as focused perspective that can not be gotten any other way other than having that level of focus. I believe that is why CCP has the CSM because they are aware of this. I know he doesn't play anymore but back when Ripard Teg was still in the game I would have taken his predictions on how game mechanic changes would effect the game over any CCP employee every time and on every subject. Every game has it's elite players that know the game play side of things better than the devs do.

If what you said were universally true then politicians that were in office for decades on end would get better and better with each passing year and I don't think anyone would argue that to be the case, well at least not anyone that wasn't a politician or worked for one.

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Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia
#7 - 2015-03-02 19:52:59 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Eve is not like other games in that there is no level cap that they can keep raising and there is no new season of gear. They can't just continually buff things like other MMOs do. In a game like WoW you can buff one or two classes or spells or what ever and since you'll be getting a new PvP season or a new raid tier or a new expansion or something like that is always a couple months a way so you can just continually creep up. Power creep like that would destroy eve so they have to continue to keep the ship classes generally where they are.

If CCP were to give into the power creep scenario that you are talking about the NPCs would get easier and easier to fight. Then isk per hour would go up which would then mean that prices of everything would go up which would just further increase the barrier of entry for newer players.

I don't agree with the balancing act that CCP is doing right now. I think it is a bad road to go down that just opens them up to constant problems in a game that was reasonably well balanced in the ways that it needed to be. Now they are seeking balance in all the wrong ways IMHO.

Each races ship line ups used to have a niche that they filled. They each had a role and depending on what you like to do, you could find a racial ship line up that worked well for you. Now they keep trying to make it so that all ships get used exactly the same. So now let's say if Goons come up with a new ship doctrine and one specific ship get used a lot more all of the sudden just because it's a required ship by some huge alliance that accounts for large amounts of PvP and that ship sees a lot more action as a result, that ship now will get nerfed just based on the fact that a lot of people are flying it. It does not matter if the ship is over powered or dead even perfectly balanced.


Wouldn't NPC get the effect of the power balancing creep as well?
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2015-03-02 19:57:01 UTC
Styphon the Black wrote:
Wouldn't NPC get the effect of the power balancing creep as well?


..............ok, now you're trolling, right?
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2015-03-02 20:00:58 UTC
There's already plenty of power creep in EVE. Look at the Rifter, which was the most powerful frigate before the balance pass buffed all the others. Now it's one of the worst. Or how battleships have fallen out of favor in PVP since frigates and cruisers were buffed to be competitive.

Take for example Ishtars. It's pretty universally agreed they are overpowered. What would you have CCP do, buff every weapon system to match? Maybe they should give scorch 60 km optimal with medium guns? Or give blasters selectable damage types while maintaining their high dps and improving their tracking? They can't just break everything else to match the problem - they fix the problem.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia
#10 - 2015-03-02 20:03:14 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
Styphon the Black wrote:
Why do the Devs when trying to rebalance or fix a "overpowered" ship or piece of equipment always seem to lead towards reducing the stats or abilities of that item, instead of raising the level of the under performing ships and systems?

People have to spend a lot of time (literally years!) and money training into one of these type of vessels and being able to fly it well. Then CCP creates a nerf and that makes that ship type obsolete. It would seem more agreeable to make the under performing ships and weapon systems more appealing by raising their stats and abilities rather than reducing the effectiveness of a popular ship type or weapon system.


A nerf to one ship is an indirect buff to all others. It's therefore easier to tone down one thing than try to prop up everything else.


Normally I would agree with that logic. However, this game is unique in that training and character development takes years to accomplish. So when the Devs makes a "rebalance" they can effectively erase a toons usefulness and value. For example the changes announced to carrier pilots/fighters will reduce their usefulness greatly making them effectively useless expect for large scale alliance fleet battles.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2015-03-02 20:11:49 UTC
Styphon the Black wrote:


Normally I would agree with that logic. However, this game is unique in that training and character development takes years to accomplish. So when the Devs makes a "rebalance" they can effectively erase a toons usefulness and value. For example the changes announced to carrier pilots/fighters will reduce their usefulness greatly making them effectively useless expect for large scale alliance fleet battles.


You honestly just said that the ship is now useless except when it won't be useless.
Dredd Lochness Munster
Dredd Lochness Munster Corporation
#12 - 2015-03-02 20:14:09 UTC
Styphon the Black wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:
Styphon the Black wrote:
Why do the Devs when trying to rebalance or fix a "overpowered" ship or piece of equipment always seem to lead towards reducing the stats or abilities of that item, instead of raising the level of the under performing ships and systems?

People have to spend a lot of time (literally years!) and money training into one of these type of vessels and being able to fly it well. Then CCP creates a nerf and that makes that ship type obsolete. It would seem more agreeable to make the under performing ships and weapon systems more appealing by raising their stats and abilities rather than reducing the effectiveness of a popular ship type or weapon system.


A nerf to one ship is an indirect buff to all others. It's therefore easier to tone down one thing than try to prop up everything else.


Normally I would agree with that logic. However, this game is unique in that training and character development takes years to accomplish. So when the Devs makes a "rebalance" they can effectively erase a toons usefulness and value. For example the changes announced to carrier pilots/fighters will reduce their usefulness greatly making them effectively useless expect for large scale alliance fleet battles.


How do you suggest they would "buff" other ships to counter carrier's ability to assign fighters? I can't think of one. 10 frigates on a gate have the firepower of 5 carriers, without putting the carriers at actual risk. How do you fix that by buffing the ships that might jump into such a situation?
Dredd Lochness Munster
Dredd Lochness Munster Corporation
#13 - 2015-03-02 20:15:17 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
Styphon the Black wrote:


Normally I would agree with that logic. However, this game is unique in that training and character development takes years to accomplish. So when the Devs makes a "rebalance" they can effectively erase a toons usefulness and value. For example the changes announced to carrier pilots/fighters will reduce their usefulness greatly making them effectively useless expect for large scale alliance fleet battles.


You honestly just said that the ship is now useless except when it won't be useless.


Yeah... His complaint is that the ship will be useless except when filling the role it was always intended to fill.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2015-03-02 20:15:18 UTC
Styphon the Black wrote:
Normally I would agree with that logic. However, this game is unique in that training and character development takes years to accomplish. So when the Devs makes a "rebalance" they can effectively erase a toons usefulness and value. For example the changes announced to carrier pilots/fighters will reduce their usefulness greatly making them effectively useless expect for large scale alliance fleet battles.

If you just came to cry about carrier nerfs you are in the wrong forum. Carriers will be far from useless.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2015-03-02 20:15:26 UTC
Also I direct your attention to this thread in General Discussion.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-03-02 20:19:07 UTC
Okay. 6/10 om the OP, too many people took the bait.

This guy is obviously not a new player, and is obviously a troll.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Orlacc
#17 - 2015-03-02 20:21:49 UTC
Guy was training a carrier to do PVE. So sad.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2015-03-02 20:22:28 UTC
Styphon the Black wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:
Styphon the Black wrote:
Why do the Devs when trying to rebalance or fix a "overpowered" ship or piece of equipment always seem to lead towards reducing the stats or abilities of that item, instead of raising the level of the under performing ships and systems?

People have to spend a lot of time (literally years!) and money training into one of these type of vessels and being able to fly it well. Then CCP creates a nerf and that makes that ship type obsolete. It would seem more agreeable to make the under performing ships and weapon systems more appealing by raising their stats and abilities rather than reducing the effectiveness of a popular ship type or weapon system.


A nerf to one ship is an indirect buff to all others. It's therefore easier to tone down one thing than try to prop up everything else.


Normally I would agree with that logic. However, this game is unique in that training and character development takes years to accomplish. So when the Devs makes a "rebalance" they can effectively erase a toons usefulness and value. For example the changes announced to carrier pilots/fighters will reduce their usefulness greatly making them effectively useless expect for large scale alliance fleet battles.



This makes no sense.

If they buff everything else, the current overpowered thing will then no longer be overpowered in comparison to something else and you would complain again.

The game will never be perfectly balanced, but fixing one part to make it more balanced is a lot easier than fixing everything to be as broken as the problem.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2015-03-02 20:22:47 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
too many people took the bait.


I'm addicted to bait, what can I say?
Phig Neutron
Starbreaker and Sons
#20 - 2015-03-02 20:24:19 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
So now let's say if Goons come up with a new ship doctrine and one specific ship get used a lot more all of the sudden just because it's a required ship by some huge alliance that accounts for large amounts of PvP and that ship sees a lot more action as a result, that ship now will get nerfed just based on the fact that a lot of people are flying it. It does not matter if the ship is over powered or dead even perfectly balanced.


Are you honestly trying to argue that Ishtars, Tengus, or offgrid carriers only seem to be overpowered because Goons have them as a doctrine or something? Whining about a nerf to your favorite ship, because it's your favorite ship, is not a good preface to a couple posts down where you argue that CCP developers are myopic while you personally take a holistic global view of game balance.
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