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Fleet Tempest is a Flavourless Redumbdancy
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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#61 - 2015-03-02 04:42:47 UTC
God's Apples wrote:

Tell me what role the TFI fills that you would not use another ship for and which the mach cannot do better?


TFI fleet flown by several powerblocks. Big cane for solo/small gang work where the extra tank allows it to brawl.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2015-03-02 08:06:00 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
God's Apples wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They are two different ships that do different things.


You just don't seem to get it do you. Read my post please. The mach and TFI have exactly the same slot layout with exactly the same cost. The TFI doesn't gain anything from having another utility high, because a mach can drop a gun and still have as much damage. I listed every single ship stat in the game. With the exception of a marginal increase in EHP, the mach is better than the TFI in every single stat. If you didn't get that I'll repeat it for you:

THEY ARE THE SAME SHIP EXCEPT ONE IS WORSE IN EVER SINGLE WAY.


And I told YOU to tell me what strategic advantage those stats would objectively achieve, yet you just parrot on about these minor increases in stats without actually giving any reason why the mach would be better BECAUSE of those stat increases.

As far as I can see at this point, the only relevant advantages the mach has are:

1. Much better projection
2. Slightly higher sensor strength

And the TFI has the advantage of being beefier.

To me, this means that they are balanced against each other and are useful in different situations.


No it's about what role the ships fill. The TFI doesn't have the speed or projection to be used in small gang. It's limited to fleet due to these constraints. And for the role of fleet it's significantly outclassed by many other BS, including the mach which is by far a superior artillery platform given its superior projection and alpha.

Tell me what role the TFI fills that you would not use another ship for and which the mach cannot do better?


any situation where hp matters, which is almost everything.

Art of Explosions
Kalihira
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#63 - 2015-03-02 11:39:05 UTC
Aerie Evingod wrote:
Complaining about a navy battleship by comparing to a pirate battleship? Of course it will look bad in comparison. Same way a navy mega is out classed by a vindicator.


vindi vs Nmega is a totally different story. if you compare them the vindi has the web bonus, but the Nmega is slightly faster, has a way better tank, and if you actually put the tank on the vindi on par with the Nmega, the Nmega actually does abit more dps beceause you need to drop a magstab. The only question you need to ask yourself on those two ships is wether you want to pay 150-200mil extra for the web bonus or not.

On topic, the TFI, but also the regular tempest is lackuster imo, and quite frankly, the mach outperforms it in every way, exept for buffertank and the number of utility highs, but thats a very small price to pay for what you gain. What I dont get about the pest hulls it that they are supposed to be assault battleships (atleast the T1) but quite crap on the dps department.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#64 - 2015-03-02 15:57:27 UTC
Kalihira wrote:
Aerie Evingod wrote:
Complaining about a navy battleship by comparing to a pirate battleship? Of course it will look bad in comparison. Same way a navy mega is out classed by a vindicator.


vindi vs Nmega is a totally different story. if you compare them the vindi has the web bonus, but the Nmega is slightly faster, has a way better tank, and if you actually put the tank on the vindi on par with the Nmega, the Nmega actually does abit more dps beceause you need to drop a magstab. The only question you need to ask yourself on those two ships is wether you want to pay 150-200mil extra for the web bonus or not.

On topic, the TFI, but also the regular tempest is lackuster imo, and quite frankly, the mach outperforms it in every way, exept for buffertank and the number of utility highs, but thats a very small price to pay for what you gain. What I dont get about the pest hulls it that they are supposed to be assault battleships (atleast the T1) but quite crap on the dps department.


You dont need huge dps numbers when your packing duel heavy neuts.
Kalihira
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#65 - 2015-03-02 16:23:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalihira
baltec1 wrote:
Kalihira wrote:
Aerie Evingod wrote:
Complaining about a navy battleship by comparing to a pirate battleship? Of course it will look bad in comparison. Same way a navy mega is out classed by a vindicator.


vindi vs Nmega is a totally different story. if you compare them the vindi has the web bonus, but the Nmega is slightly faster, has a way better tank, and if you actually put the tank on the vindi on par with the Nmega, the Nmega actually does abit more dps beceause you need to drop a magstab. The only question you need to ask yourself on those two ships is wether you want to pay 150-200mil extra for the web bonus or not.

On topic, the TFI, but also the regular tempest is lackuster imo, and quite frankly, the mach outperforms it in every way, exept for buffertank and the number of utility highs, but thats a very small price to pay for what you gain. What I dont get about the pest hulls it that they are supposed to be assault battleships (atleast the T1) but quite crap on the dps department.


You dont need huge dps numbers when your packing duel heavy neuts.


If one wants crappy dps with good neuting power ur better off with a bhaal in allmost every way for around the same pricetag these days. My main point is that the ship has nothing going for it. It needs somthing more. The op is quite right in this. I wouldnt regard it as a completely useless, it just falls behind other ships in its category.

edit: just throwing an idea out there, but what about adding a gunslot, and revamp the bunusses to : 10% large projectile turret damage and 7,5% large projectile turret tracking?

2nd edit: derp, the fleet phoon only has 1 utility high
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#66 - 2015-03-02 17:35:09 UTC
Kalihira wrote:


If one wants crappy dps with good neuting power ur better off with a bhaal in allmost every way for around the same pricetag these days. My main point is that the ship has nothing going for it. It needs somthing more. The op is quite right in this. I wouldnt regard it as a completely useless, it just falls behind other ships in its category.

edit: just throwing an idea out there, but what about adding a gunslot, and revamp the bunusses to : 10% large projectile turret damage and 7,5% large projectile turret tracking?

2nd edit: derp, the fleet phoon only has 1 utility high


The problem is with the pilots who don't know how to use the ship. You try to shoehorn it into jobs that other ships do while you ignore the job it was made for. In this case the TFI makes a great big brother of the navy cane, its made for scrapping.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2015-03-02 18:07:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tusker Crazinski
baltec1 wrote:
Kalihira wrote:
Aerie Evingod wrote:
Complaining about a navy battleship by comparing to a pirate battleship? Of course it will look bad in comparison. Same way a navy mega is out classed by a vindicator.


vindi vs Nmega is a totally different story. if you compare them the vindi has the web bonus, but the Nmega is slightly faster, has a way better tank, and if you actually put the tank on the vindi on par with the Nmega, the Nmega actually does abit more dps beceause you need to drop a magstab. The only question you need to ask yourself on those two ships is wether you want to pay 150-200mil extra for the web bonus or not.

On topic, the TFI, but also the regular tempest is lackuster imo, and quite frankly, the mach outperforms it in every way, exept for buffertank and the number of utility highs, but thats a very small price to pay for what you gain. What I dont get about the pest hulls it that they are supposed to be assault battleships (atleast the T1) but quite crap on the dps department.


You dont need huge dps numbers when your packing duel heavy neuts.


So why is no one dropping guns for neuts. exception being the AC brawly maelstrom.

and lol what, the armor cane has always been ****, along with lol armor pest.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#68 - 2015-03-02 18:33:03 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kalihira wrote:


If one wants crappy dps with good neuting power ur better off with a bhaal in allmost every way for around the same pricetag these days. My main point is that the ship has nothing going for it. It needs somthing more. The op is quite right in this. I wouldnt regard it as a completely useless, it just falls behind other ships in its category.

edit: just throwing an idea out there, but what about adding a gunslot, and revamp the bunusses to : 10% large projectile turret damage and 7,5% large projectile turret tracking?

2nd edit: derp, the fleet phoon only has 1 utility high


The problem is with the pilots who don't know how to use the ship. You try to shoehorn it into jobs that other ships do while you ignore the job it was made for. In this case the TFI makes a great big brother of the navy cane, its made for scrapping.


Against what? The almost non-existant roaming BS gangs taking over LS and null? BS sized turrets vs hacs and frigs are going to miss a lot in scram range. Unless double web. Then you sacrifice a cap booster or other EWAR.

And if you think heavy neuts will disable a frig, your wrong. Long cycle time means a frig can still keep you scrammed easily between cycles. Not including if the frig pilot has the foresight to fit a nos. If so, he can keep alive by pulsing prop, easily sig tanking your turrets.

If you look at current trends from your trusted KB tool. Almost all minny ships with RoF and dmg bonuses are fit with arty more than acs. Thats because double damage synergizes well with artillery, more than ac. Infact, last i checked the hurricane (and ruppy) favored arty by large margin compared to acs. Which is what i told you in the autocannon balance thread. You chose to ignore it and say the same thing you are saying here. Its a brawler. No.. it WAS a good brawler with acs. Now people realize its only decent with arty in the current meta.

Could of sworn the TFI doctrines were using artillery, and not autocannons. Which goes against your brawler theory. Also.. if you were gonna brawl.. wouldnt your mega or even a hyperion be the better choice? Better tracking, more tank, similar projection with null. Why would you bring acs to a blaster fight?

Oh wait.. zee CAPLESS weapon system is all powerful. Hybrid cap useage can be mitigated with a cap booster. Revolutionary.. i know. TFI would need a cap booster to sustain 2 heavy neuts to cap out your mega and keep tank/tackle active. Not including other neuts against it. So you cant claim the TFI doesnt need a cap booster.

Have you flown a pest yet? Or just keep pretending theyre the best in conversation, but still fly your mega? Im waiting for the "Baltec Pest".. oh.. it already exists.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#69 - 2015-03-02 19:40:42 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Kalihira wrote:


If one wants crappy dps with good neuting power ur better off with a bhaal in allmost every way for around the same pricetag these days. My main point is that the ship has nothing going for it. It needs somthing more. The op is quite right in this. I wouldnt regard it as a completely useless, it just falls behind other ships in its category.

edit: just throwing an idea out there, but what about adding a gunslot, and revamp the bunusses to : 10% large projectile turret damage and 7,5% large projectile turret tracking?

2nd edit: derp, the fleet phoon only has 1 utility high


The problem is with the pilots who don't know how to use the ship. You try to shoehorn it into jobs that other ships do while you ignore the job it was made for. In this case the TFI makes a great big brother of the navy cane, its made for scrapping.


Against what? The almost non-existant roaming BS gangs taking over LS and null? BS sized turrets vs hacs and frigs are going to miss a lot in scram range. Unless double web. Then you sacrifice a cap booster or other EWAR.

And if you think heavy neuts will disable a frig, your wrong. Long cycle time means a frig can still keep you scrammed easily between cycles. Not including if the frig pilot has the foresight to fit a nos. If so, he can keep alive by pulsing prop, easily sig tanking your turrets.

If you look at current trends from your trusted KB tool. Almost all minny ships with RoF and dmg bonuses are fit with arty more than acs. Thats because double damage synergizes well with artillery, more than ac. Infact, last i checked the hurricane (and ruppy) favored arty by large margin compared to acs. Which is what i told you in the autocannon balance thread. You chose to ignore it and say the same thing you are saying here. Its a brawler. No.. it WAS a good brawler with acs. Now people realize its only decent with arty in the current meta.

Could of sworn the TFI doctrines were using artillery, and not autocannons. Which goes against your brawler theory. Also.. if you were gonna brawl.. wouldnt your mega or even a hyperion be the better choice? Better tracking, more tank, similar projection with null. Why would you bring acs to a blaster fight?

Oh wait.. zee CAPLESS weapon system is all powerful. Hybrid cap useage can be mitigated with a cap booster. Revolutionary.. i know. TFI would need a cap booster to sustain 2 heavy neuts to cap out your mega and keep tank/tackle active. Not including other neuts against it. So you cant claim the TFI doesnt need a cap booster.

Have you flown a pest yet? Or just keep pretending theyre the best in conversation, but still fly your mega? Im waiting for the "Baltec Pest".. oh.. it already exists.


Fleet TFI is doing a different job to a solo one. If the idea of meeting a frigate scares you (learn to neut) then fly it with a pal or three.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#70 - 2015-03-03 17:36:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
baltec1 wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Kalihira wrote:


If one wants crappy dps with good neuting power ur better off with a bhaal in allmost every way for around the same pricetag these days. My main point is that the ship has nothing going for it. It needs somthing more. The op is quite right in this. I wouldnt regard it as a completely useless, it just falls behind other ships in its category.

edit: just throwing an idea out there, but what about adding a gunslot, and revamp the bunusses to : 10% large projectile turret damage and 7,5% large projectile turret tracking?

2nd edit: derp, the fleet phoon only has 1 utility high


The problem is with the pilots who don't know how to use the ship. You try to shoehorn it into jobs that other ships do while you ignore the job it was made for. In this case the TFI makes a great big brother of the navy cane, its made for scrapping.


Against what? The almost non-existant roaming BS gangs taking over LS and null? BS sized turrets vs hacs and frigs are going to miss a lot in scram range. Unless double web. Then you sacrifice a cap booster or other EWAR.

And if you think heavy neuts will disable a frig, your wrong. Long cycle time means a frig can still keep you scrammed easily between cycles. Not including if the frig pilot has the foresight to fit a nos. If so, he can keep alive by pulsing prop, easily sig tanking your turrets.

If you look at current trends from your trusted KB tool. Almost all minny ships with RoF and dmg bonuses are fit with arty more than acs. Thats because double damage synergizes well with artillery, more than ac. Infact, last i checked the hurricane (and ruppy) favored arty by large margin compared to acs. Which is what i told you in the autocannon balance thread. You chose to ignore it and say the same thing you are saying here. Its a brawler. No.. it WAS a good brawler with acs. Now people realize its only decent with arty in the current meta.

Could of sworn the TFI doctrines were using artillery, and not autocannons. Which goes against your brawler theory. Also.. if you were gonna brawl.. wouldnt your mega or even a hyperion be the better choice? Better tracking, more tank, similar projection with null. Why would you bring acs to a blaster fight?

Oh wait.. zee CAPLESS weapon system is all powerful. Hybrid cap useage can be mitigated with a cap booster. Revolutionary.. i know. TFI would need a cap booster to sustain 2 heavy neuts to cap out your mega and keep tank/tackle active. Not including other neuts against it. So you cant claim the TFI doesnt need a cap booster.

Have you flown a pest yet? Or just keep pretending theyre the best in conversation, but still fly your mega? Im waiting for the "Baltec Pest".. oh.. it already exists.


Fleet TFI is doing a different job to a solo one. If the idea of meeting a frigate scares you (learn to neut) then fly it with a pal or three.


What solo job is that? A slow, poor tracking, mediocre 500m BS? Like God's mentioned, why fly the TFI when mach can do the same thing BETTER for pretty much the same price. Mach is faster in both base and warp speed compared to the pest, which is what you want solo. Not a slow lumbering double plated brawler that would DIAF to a frig gang. Or be blobbed cause you cant get tackle frigs off quick enough.

Typhoon is a much better brawler than the pest. No tracking and the typhoon FI gets 2 utility highs just like the pest, and is a bit faster as well. Not to mention i can get over 1k dps and over 120k EHP from a fleet phoon. Tempest would struggle to do both.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2015-03-03 18:54:10 UTC
1k dps with torps/rapid heavies yes.

Both with quite obvious disadvantages which you have obviously failed to point out because you think that if you don't mention them, they don't exist.

Art of Explosions
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#72 - 2015-03-03 20:01:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
1k dps with torps/rapid heavies yes.

Both with quite obvious disadvantages which you have obviously failed to point out because you think that if you don't mention them, they don't exist.


Actually thats with cruise missiles, a tp, double web and a rigor rig with MJD. Nice assumption.. good job looking like a dumbass. Typhoon FI also has bandwidth for 5 heavies and 200m3 dronebay. With cruises i have a 7.5k volley roughly, will nuke most hacs in scram range, plus if i cant kill that garm out at 40k, i can just mjd away. with fury cruises (for the mythical BS 1v1) its closer to 1100dps. Oh.. and 2 heavy neuts.

Come back when you know what you're talking about.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Gaston Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2015-03-03 21:42:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


The problem is with the pilots who don't know how to use the ship.


I know exactly how to use it. By selling it and buying a Machariel instead
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2015-03-03 22:22:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
1k dps with torps/rapid heavies yes.

Both with quite obvious disadvantages which you have obviously failed to point out because you think that if you don't mention them, they don't exist.


Actually thats with cruise missiles, a tp, double web and a rigor rig with MJD. Nice assumption.. good job looking like a dumbass. Typhoon FI also has bandwidth for 5 heavies and 200m3 dronebay. With cruises i have a 7.5k volley roughly, will nuke most hacs in scram range, plus if i cant kill that garm out at 40k, i can just mjd away. with fury cruises (for the mythical BS 1v1) its closer to 1100dps. Oh.. and 2 heavy neuts.

Come back when you know what you're talking about.


cruises in pvp

ooooook, reason I didn't mention those is because that's even worse than the other two systems I mentioned.
Cruise missiles nuking HACs, good luck with that.

Any HAC that is going to get in scram range with a phoon will take less than 300 DPS from drones and precision cruise.

And no, the phoon does not have more hp than a tempest. Not even close if you use a rigor.

Also where did BS 1vs1 come from? I don't recall anyone saying that.

Art of Explosions
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#75 - 2015-03-04 04:51:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Tsukino Stareine wrote:


cruises in pvp

ooooook, reason I didn't mention those is because that's even worse than the other two systems I mentioned.
Cruise missiles nuking HACs, good luck with that.

Any HAC that is going to get in scram range with a phoon will take less than 300 DPS from drones and precision cruise.

Also where did BS 1vs1 come from? I don't recall anyone saying that.


Do you even check what you say? Not sure how someone can be so wrong.

Cruise missiles apply quite well for the range you get. Not to mention, i can apply all my dps with cruises with just a simple crash booster in scram range. Using the same fit with torpedo's, i can't get the full dps on target, even with a crash booster.

To be fair though, torpedo's do out damage cruise missiles in web range, just due to the higher overall dps you can get. 710 for cruise missiles, and 978 with torpedo's (before drones). Cruise missiles can apply full 710 dps, while torps do around 879 (within web range). Torps do the same dps as cruises up to about 20km, before they can't reach anymore.

Cruise have the benefit of still hitting a target if its running away. Not to mention they apply better to smaller ships, at least through testing. Also, launching cruises and then MJD'n to the target to get double to triple the alpha is always fun. Can't do that with torps.

You're wrong about doing damage to a HAC. It will easily do over 300dps between drones and faction missiles within scram range. Did you forget the part where i said i had 2 webs, a target painter and a rigor rig? Even without the crash booster, i'm applying 600+ dps. Hell, even outside scram range, i'm still doing almost 400dps against an MWD'n deimos. Before drones.

You also forget, dual heavy neuts will screw over any non ASB active tank HAC, effectively turning off their tank. I was doing 2k vollies against a deimos when i was testing the fit out. So, it'll do just fine. Maybe you should actually use them before you start trying to say it won't work, then you just look foolish.

Quote:
And no, the phoon does not have more hp than a tempest. Not even close if you use a rigor.


Thats not what i said, i said:

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Typhoon is a much better brawler than the pest. No tracking and the typhoon FI gets 2 utility highs just like the pest, and is a bit faster as well. Not to mention i can get over 1k dps and over 120k EHP from a fleet phoon. Tempest would struggle to do both.


Learn to read. I said the pest would struggle to do 1k dps and have over 120k EHP. It can normally only pick one or the other. Even if the pest did do 1k dps, with turrets, it would suck to actually try and apply that dps against anything smaller than a BC.

It takes 3 gyro's, 800mm's and 5 hammerheads to get to 980 dps. In reality you'd probably have to drop a gyro to go with x2 TE to project and track decently. Which would drop you down to 890. Leaving you a 4 slot armor tank (before rigs), or trying to fit a half ass shield tank. Which if you use shield tank, really limits your tackle.

Quote:
Also where did BS 1vs1 come from? I don't recall anyone saying that


I mentioned it because 1k dps isn't even the max dps you can get out of it. Closer to 1350 with heat and furies. Which would only be useful against another BS. Maybe a BC. I know that furies will apply **** to anything below a BC, thats why i mentioned BS. But since they're so rare (1v1 BS fights), its almost not worth using those dps numbers.

That is why a phoon, is better to solo in than a pest. t1 or FI. T1 even gets an application bonus, which allows cruise/torps to apply even better. I've made RHML fits for the FI phoon, and its fun, but reload time is a killer. active tank phoon with 1.2k burst dps is great, but if you've got more than 3 ships on the field, it normally won't end well (solo).

Pest needs an overhaul, outside of arty doctrines, its not that great, especially in a solo environment. Phoon FI out performs it pretty easily, from a solo perspective anyway. Not to mention the Mach is better in all ways, unless you're going for full buffer fit.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Durbon Groth
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2015-03-12 17:59:21 UTC
Interesting thread. I've looked at both ships in the past. While the mach does have a stat lead over the TFI I still like the ship. It would be nice however to see an further increase in EHP for the TFI to set it apart from the mach and establish a reputation as a solid brawler or superior ship-of-the-line, a vast difference from the hit+run/kite tactics of machariels.
And thats what everyone wants right? Variety?
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2015-03-13 02:18:05 UTC
Durbon Groth wrote:
Interesting thread. I've looked at both ships in the past. While the mach does have a stat lead over the TFI I still like the ship. It would be nice however to see an further increase in EHP for the TFI to set it apart from the mach and establish a reputation as a solid brawler or superior ship-of-the-line, a vast difference from the hit+run/kite tactics of machariels.
And thats what everyone wants right? Variety?


which is why 10 damage and 7.5 tracking would make much more sense.

good for an auto bruiser with an application bonus, no large projectile ship has this.

good for artillery fleets, most volley of any subcap. with respectable EHP and sures up the tracking issues inherent with arty.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2015-03-13 02:25:46 UTC
Gaston Gaterau wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


The problem is with the pilots who don't know how to use the ship.


I know exactly how to use it. By selling it and buying a Machariel instead


omg you just make everyones day! thanks for the advice!

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2015-03-13 09:36:12 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:


cruises in pvp

ooooook, reason I didn't mention those is because that's even worse than the other two systems I mentioned.
Cruise missiles nuking HACs, good luck with that.

Any HAC that is going to get in scram range with a phoon will take less than 300 DPS from drones and precision cruise.

Also where did BS 1vs1 come from? I don't recall anyone saying that.


Do you even check what you say? Not sure how someone can be so wrong.

Cruise missiles apply quite well for the range you get. Not to mention, i can apply all my dps with cruises with just a simple crash booster in scram range. Using the same fit with torpedo's, i can't get the full dps on target, even with a crash booster.

To be fair though, torpedo's do out damage cruise missiles in web range, just due to the higher overall dps you can get. 710 for cruise missiles, and 978 with torpedo's (before drones). Cruise missiles can apply full 710 dps, while torps do around 879 (within web range). Torps do the same dps as cruises up to about 20km, before they can't reach anymore.

Cruise have the benefit of still hitting a target if its running away. Not to mention they apply better to smaller ships, at least through testing. Also, launching cruises and then MJD'n to the target to get double to triple the alpha is always fun. Can't do that with torps.

You're wrong about doing damage to a HAC. It will easily do over 300dps between drones and faction missiles within scram range. Did you forget the part where i said i had 2 webs, a target painter and a rigor rig? Even without the crash booster, i'm applying 600+ dps. Hell, even outside scram range, i'm still doing almost 400dps against an MWD'n deimos. Before drones.

You also forget, dual heavy neuts will screw over any non ASB active tank HAC, effectively turning off their tank. I was doing 2k vollies against a deimos when i was testing the fit out. So, it'll do just fine. Maybe you should actually use them before you start trying to say it won't work, then you just look foolish.

Quote:
And no, the phoon does not have more hp than a tempest. Not even close if you use a rigor.


Thats not what i said, i said:

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Typhoon is a much better brawler than the pest. No tracking and the typhoon FI gets 2 utility highs just like the pest, and is a bit faster as well. Not to mention i can get over 1k dps and over 120k EHP from a fleet phoon. Tempest would struggle to do both.


Learn to read. I said the pest would struggle to do 1k dps and have over 120k EHP. It can normally only pick one or the other. Even if the pest did do 1k dps, with turrets, it would suck to actually try and apply that dps against anything smaller than a BC.

It takes 3 gyro's, 800mm's and 5 hammerheads to get to 980 dps. In reality you'd probably have to drop a gyro to go with x2 TE to project and track decently. Which would drop you down to 890. Leaving you a 4 slot armor tank (before rigs), or trying to fit a half ass shield tank. Which if you use shield tank, really limits your tackle.

Quote:
Also where did BS 1vs1 come from? I don't recall anyone saying that


I mentioned it because 1k dps isn't even the max dps you can get out of it. Closer to 1350 with heat and furies. Which would only be useful against another BS. Maybe a BC. I know that furies will apply **** to anything below a BC, thats why i mentioned BS. But since they're so rare (1v1 BS fights), its almost not worth using those dps numbers.

That is why a phoon, is better to solo in than a pest. t1 or FI. T1 even gets an application bonus, which allows cruise/torps to apply even better. I've made RHML fits for the FI phoon, and its fun, but reload time is a killer. active tank phoon with 1.2k burst dps is great, but if you've got more than 3 ships on the field, it normally won't end well (solo).

Pest needs an overhaul, outside of arty doctrines, its not that great, especially in a solo environment. Phoon FI out performs it pretty easily, from a solo perspective anyway. Not to mention the Mach is better in all ways, unless you're going for full buffer fit.


Check your numbers, they're completely wrong. You'll never apply full dps to a HAC even if it's scrammed with cruise missiles.

You're a terrible EFT warrior who doesn't actually take into account actual mechanics.

Art of Explosions
Capt Sephiroth
#80 - 2015-03-13 12:01:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Sephiroth
In bigger scale fights where dps of a ship doesnt matter that much when you have hundreds of pilots involved If you fit the same armor buffer tanks on TFI, mach and Foon FI you will see that TFI wins by 14k ehp without boosts. If mach wants to be able to fit that much buffer tank it has to remove one gun which brings its dps and volley on par with (actually is lower than that of TFI in both) however mach has a better projection cause of that falloff. We are of course talking about arty. Now if we were to go for Foon FI which has the same 14k ehp lower tank than a TFI without boosts and able to hit at range meaning usage of CMLs without rage of course cause well damage application TFI still has a higher volley by more than 1k plus missiles can be countered with smartbombs. In any case TFI has its place and role that it does better than both Foon FI and mach so if it was to be buffed then mach and Foon FI would become obsolete.