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[Scylla; Proposal] Boost DPS from large guns/missiles by 20%
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Anthar Thebess
#1 - 2015-03-02 08:52:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
I know that this looks ridiculous - but yet in this madness there is one bright idea:
Making battleships , and battlecruisers more desirable on fleets.
Currently it is quite easy to get into the point where enough logistic ships will negate all enemy dps , and make a fleet invincible.
This change will hopefully solve this issue.

What we will get from this change.

Good things.
1. More battleships on fields!
2. More alpha doctrines - so more stuff dying , good for every one , especially for the miners
3. Less people needed to kill stuff , so smaller fleets will again have reason to exist ( aka remote repairs kill all the fun CCP)

Bad things
1. More rats dying , but currently smartbombs are biggest issue in terms of ratting.
2. Potential abuse of arty guns in higsec ganking ( reducing cycle for arty guns to get dps boost?)

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Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#2 - 2015-03-02 09:00:08 UTC
Or you could rebalance logi and bombs and not succumb to the siren song of power creep.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Madd Adda
#3 - 2015-03-02 09:01:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Madd Adda
why would you gank in anything bigger than a dessie? I guess ganking a freighter would be the target

either way -1

Carebear extraordinaire
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2015-03-02 09:04:45 UTC
Why would you want to give me 20% more firepower on a 2k DPS ship?
Anthar Thebess
#5 - 2015-03-02 09:08:38 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Why would you want to give me 20% more firepower on a 2k DPS ship?


1. To brake logistics.
2. Make eve THE BATTLESHIP game

I'm aware that this will create some new issues, and will be abused in PVE.
But for me PVE <<< PVP

Fleet ships have a bit lower DPS , not 2k.
To have this 2k DPS you need very specific faction fitted ships, that currently have no bigger use in fleets.

Yes in roams they will be still OP, but killing this kind of ship will be also bigger fun.

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Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2015-03-02 09:26:50 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
I know that this looks ridiculous - but yet in this madness there is one bright idea:
Making battleships , and battlecruisers more desirable on fleets.
Currently it is quite easy to get into the point where enough logistic ships will negate all enemy dps , and make a fleet invincible.
This change will hopefully solve this issue.

What we will get from this change.

Good things.
1. More battleships on fields!
2. More alpha doctrines - so more stuff dying , good for every one , especially for the miners
3. Less people needed to kill stuff , so smaller fleets will again have reason to exist ( aka remote repairs kill all the fun CCP)

Bad things
1. More rats dying , but currently smartbombs are biggest issue in terms of ratting.
2. Potential abuse of arty guns in higsec ganking ( reducing cycle for arty guns to get dps boost?)



Battleships doesn´t need an boost why ?

They are on Place 3 by the affected PVP Dmg. With the 20 % Dmg boost they would be the new ishtar and everybody would flame about this. More information --> List with PvP inflicted dmg

In bigger battles ( 0.0) the logi is most times not the factor because the targets die instantly, maybe exept T3´s and bs.
And most doctrins are already on alpha dmg.

Why should eve be a battleship game ? Please explain your theory.

Can´t se a good argument for boosting the dps about 20 %.

not supported / -1
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2015-03-02 09:27:57 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Why would you want to give me 20% more firepower on a 2k DPS ship?


1. To brake logistics.
2. Make eve THE BATTLESHIP game

I'm aware that this will create some new issues, and will be abused in PVE.
But for me PVE <<< PVP

Fleet ships have a bit lower DPS , not 2k.
To have this 2k DPS you need very specific faction fitted ships, that currently have no bigger use in fleets.

Yes in roams they will be still OP, but killing this kind of ship will be also bigger fun.


It wont be fun. If you want to deal with the issues with logi then nerf logi.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2015-03-02 09:33:05 UTC
Samillian wrote:
Or you could rebalance logi and bombs and not succumb to the siren song of power creep.


Can you explain me why logi/ bombers are op. I hear the arguement very often but never could read why they are op ?

Logi should keep the target alive in big number it´s hard to break the tank but you can easy switch the target, and because most doctrins are on alpha dmg the targets most times die instant. The only doctrin that i know which most times is more than a volley alive are bs and tengus.

And bombers are easy to counter, you can stay aligned (yeah i know is a very hard buisness) and warp out when bombs drop.
You can fly out of the bombing zone, you can blob the bombers. Just be creative. But for this you have to make something and most times people are to lazy about it.
Anthar Thebess
#9 - 2015-03-02 09:33:33 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


It wont be fun. If you want to deal with the issues with logi then nerf logi.


Can we try to boost something instead of nerfing something? Roll


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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#10 - 2015-03-02 09:43:53 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


It wont be fun. If you want to deal with the issues with logi then nerf logi.


Can we try to boost something instead of nerfing something? Roll


We did. That's why we have Ishtars and Bombers Online.
Madd Adda
#11 - 2015-03-02 09:46:40 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


It wont be fun. If you want to deal with the issues with logi then nerf logi.


Can we try to boost something instead of nerfing something? Roll


We did. That's why we have Ishtars and Bombers Online.


if it's not Cruisers online, it's Battlecrusiers online, if not then T3 Destroyers online, if not Frigates online. it'll never end.

Carebear extraordinaire
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#12 - 2015-03-02 10:01:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Samillian
Tabyll Altol wrote:
Samillian wrote:
Or you could rebalance logi and bombs and not succumb to the siren song of power creep.


Can you explain me why logi/ bombers are op. I hear the arguement very often but never could read why they are op ?

Logi should keep the target alive in big number it´s hard to break the tank but you can easy switch the target, and because most doctrins are on alpha dmg the targets most times die instant. The only doctrin that i know which most times is more than a volley alive are bs and tengus.

And bombers are easy to counter, you can stay aligned (yeah i know is a very hard buisness) and warp out when bombs drop.
You can fly out of the bombing zone, you can blob the bombers. Just be creative. But for this you have to make something and most times people are to lazy about it.



Oh I agree logi should keep ships alive if feasible and as to bombs they are very effective but there are ways to avoid them. My point is I would rather see them dialled back than have an increase to BS weapons systems which then starts calls for an increase of tank, then calls for an increase of the effectiveness of cruiser size weapons, then cruiser tank and so on and so forth ad-infinitum in an ever increasing spiral of pointless buffs.

Or as its more succinctly put power creep.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Anthar Thebess
#13 - 2015-03-02 10:27:40 UTC
30 logistic ships in a 250 man fleet can keep single ship from dying from dps of the whole enemy fleet.
Yes you could loose few because of some fu*** but whole fleet can easily survive.

Usually you can obliterate whole enemy fleet while loosing 5% of your own fleet , just because enemy had N-1 logistic needed to negate your DPS.
Those 5% looses , are because :
- people did not align
- broadcast to late
- got dropped

If we boost large weapons by 20% alpha damage could be again something that will negate logistic ships.
Because if you can alpha enemy ship BEFORE logistics will manage to repair it and cycle remote reps , then logistics have very minimal influence in this kind of fight.

When you look at last changes to eve gameplay you will notice that we got many buffs to ship EHP Boost over last years.
Some of those buffs are effect of the current nullsec situation.

What buffs?
Just few examples.
- T2 1600 armor plate change
- change of way the armor rigs work ( faster ships)
- pirate faction ship changes
- over farming ... faction modes much cheaper , so faction tank have become something usual in fleet doctrines.
- links , yes they where in use for a long time, but recently many new people trained for them , so almost every fleet have all links they need.








Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#14 - 2015-03-02 11:08:17 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
30 logistic ships in a 250 man fleet can keep single ship from dying from dps of the whole enemy fleet.
Yes you could loose few because of some fu*** but whole fleet can easily survive.

Usually you can obliterate whole enemy fleet while loosing 5% of your own fleet , just because enemy had N-1 logistic needed to negate your DPS.
Those 5% looses , are because :
- people did not align
- broadcast to late
- got dropped

If we boost large weapons by 20% alpha damage could be again something that will negate logistic ships.
Because if you can alpha enemy ship BEFORE logistics will manage to repair it and cycle remote reps , then logistics have very minimal influence in this kind of fight.

When you look at last changes to eve gameplay you will notice that we got many buffs to ship EHP Boost over last years.
Some of those buffs are effect of the current nullsec situation.

What buffs?
Just few examples.
- T2 1600 armor plate change
- change of way the armor rigs work ( faster ships)
- pirate faction ship changes
- over farming ... faction modes much cheaper , so faction tank have become something usual in fleet doctrines.
- links , yes they where in use for a long time, but recently many new people trained for them , so almost every fleet have all links they need.

Many?

I think not.

Training links is not a buff.

The only changes to armour rigs has been to ones that effect repair modules. Buffer and resistance rigs haven't changed. So your claims about rigging is at best irrelevant, and at worst wrong.

What about the reduction in resistance bonuses from 5% to 4% per level? Please tell me how that's a boost to ship EHP.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#15 - 2015-03-02 13:06:32 UTC
i totally agree with the idea, battleships need a bigger advantage over cruiser/BC.
the only problem adding dps to the guns you also boost ABCs and they dont really need a boost, we need a way too boost dps on BS and not on ABC, this would also insure that gankers wont get much profit out of this because a 20% probably it wont be worth the price difference between a tornado and a tempest.
the concerns about PVE are not very important imho clearing a mission in 6:30 instead of 7:00 minutes wont make much of a difference.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2015-03-02 13:37:04 UTC
Tabyll Altol wrote:
Battleships doesn´t need an boost why ?

They are on Place 3 by the affected PVP Dmg. With the 20 % Dmg boost they would be the new ishtar and everybody would flame about this. More information --> List with PvP inflicted dmg


A chart with neither legend nor scale is not evidence.

I mean, basic knowledge tells us that there is something off base here - if BS were proportionately represented, they would have higher damage on a chart like this as they have the greatest DPS potential of all subcaps.

That said, a 20% buff to big guns is not the way to do it.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2015-03-02 13:42:47 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
30 logistic ships in a 250 man fleet can keep single ship from dying from dps of the whole enemy fleet.
Yes you could loose few because of some fu*** but whole fleet can easily survive.

Usually you can obliterate whole enemy fleet while loosing 5% of your own fleet , just because enemy had N-1 logistic needed to negate your DPS.
Those 5% looses , are because :
- people did not align
- broadcast to late
- got dropped

If we boost large weapons by 20% alpha damage could be again something that will negate logistic ships.
Because if you can alpha enemy ship BEFORE logistics will manage to repair it and cycle remote reps , then logistics have very minimal influence in this kind of fight.

When you look at last changes to eve gameplay you will notice that we got many buffs to ship EHP Boost over last years.
Some of those buffs are effect of the current nullsec situation.

What buffs?
Just few examples.
- T2 1600 armor plate change
- change of way the armor rigs work ( faster ships)
- pirate faction ship changes
- over farming ... faction modes much cheaper , so faction tank have become something usual in fleet doctrines.
- links , yes they where in use for a long time, but recently many new people trained for them , so almost every fleet have all links they need.





What with around 180 Fighting Members you should be able to alpha pretty all of the ships and the enemy Logi can start repping wrecks.
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#18 - 2015-03-02 14:03:06 UTC
Madd Adda wrote:
why would you gank in anything bigger than a dessie? I guess ganking a freighter would be the target

either way -1


Because some solo gankers like to either
1: grantee the kill, and generally scan first before firing, biggest large gun solo kill is tornadoes, fleet kill talons
2: there are people that use bigger ships to grantee a kill just to prove a point, there are people that use brutix, talons, tornados to gank a mining barge.

Ive spent years dealing and experimenting with ganking and the various reasons people gank.

To the poster, 20% dos isn't that good of an idea, while more stuff would die, they are still slow in sub light and FTL speeds and are also a great sizable target someone else can do full damage to.

There are also threads asking for the small large and medium guns like dual 250s to get the large gun bonuses.

To the poster going on about bombs, there aren't any bombs in low or high sec.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
bloodknight2
Revenu.Quebec
#19 - 2015-03-02 14:26:29 UTC
Boosting dps? No. Boosting tracking and range? Maybe.

The main problem with large/capitals guns is they have a hard time hitting smaller target. Even if you give 8k DPS to battleship, they will be easly killed with 2-3 tracking/range disruptor.

Give ALL battleship a small bonus to neut, web range, scram/disruptor range and tracking. Make them useful.
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2015-03-02 14:51:04 UTC
While DPS increase may make Battleships more attractive, here are few points that TS forgot to address:

1. Attack BC DPS is fine, no need to buff it.
2. Stealth Bomber torp DPS is fine, no need to buff it.
3. Do you really want to make Machariel/Nightmare Incursion farming even more profitable?

My point is if you want to weaken logistics, better to aim at logistics. And if you want to make BS more desirable in PvP, try to give them some niche instead of "Moar DAKKA!".
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