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Dev Blog: Balance Changes Coming In Scylla

First post
Author
tasman devil
Puritans
#161 - 2015-03-01 06:05:44 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
Oreb Wing wrote:
Now remove a high slot from the Guardian and we can fight those t3 blobs.


...and Basi

only Basi and Oneiros, Guardians cannot fit **** all the crappy tech 1 modules which on a tech two ship is more than lame!

I don't belive in reincarnation I've never believed in it in my previous lives either...

Angela Channing
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2015-03-01 14:37:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Angela Channing
As for nerfs: while you are nerfing Ishtars (hooray) and Tengus (yay) and Skynet (that really got out of hand), I am not sure Proteuses and Legions need nerfs, but I don't really care. However, what also needs nerfing is T3 destroyers and links.

Properly fitted, T3 destroyers make entire ship classes redundant (frigs [except those fit in novice complexes in FW space], destroyers, and ass frigs) and can virtually not be beaten by a T1 (non-pirate) cruiser except perhaps a Vexor. If the only thing that beats a T3 destroyer is another T3 destroyer, there is something wrong in my opinion. Just like for the Ishtar, no ship should be a panacea against such a large number of ships.

To give you an indication, look at the ships that solo kill T3 destroyers and infer (or look up the data to which we have no access) which ones do not get killed in solo fights. For example, I have distilled six rules of thumb to get your Confessor killed in a solo fight.

1. Fit an MWD instead of a 10mn ab
2. Fit a long point instead of a scram
3. Fit beam lasers (perhaps in combination with 2)
4. Fit no cap booster
5. Fit the low slots for yolo instead of tank
6. Engage a Svipul

By induction, Confessors that do not make one of these fitting "mistakes" seem unusually unlikely to get killed by anything but a Svipul in solo fights. There are of course exceptions like insta blaps, but these seem to confirm the rule rather than give evidence of balance.

Similarly, the bonuses of links are so large that they skew fights dramatically. Now you could say "get links yourself." But all they do in that case is restore competitive parity, which means they are redundant. But if one side has them and the other does not, then they simply create too large an imbalance that is too difficult to overcome with skill. Essentially then, links are fundamentally at odds with the goal of balance.
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#163 - 2015-03-01 14:48:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Uppsy Daisy
https://zkillboard.com/kill/44946821/

10MN AB - check
Scram - check
Pulse lasers - check
Cap booster - check
Tank in low slots - check
Not against a svipul - check

Took about 30 second to find. Fail.
Angela Channing
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2015-03-01 14:57:27 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
https://zkillboard.com/kill/44946821/

10MN AB - check
Scram - check
Pulse lasers - check
Cap booster - check
Tank in low slots - check
Not against a svipul - check

Took about 30 second to find. Fail.


Congratulations, you found what I called an "exception."
Senjiu Kanuba
Risk Breakers
SONS of BANE
#165 - 2015-03-01 15:07:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Senjiu Kanuba
How about changing the way the POS bubbles work? Right now a ship within a bubble cannot target anything and cannot be targeted. My proposal is that the edge of the bubble becomes wider, say, 5km wide. That would create three areas of space around a POS.

Current situation:

Area inside: You cannot target and cannot be targeted, you cannot combat boost and you cannot assist your fighters to someone.
Area outside: You can target anything within range, you can be targeted, you can combat boost, you can assist your fighters to someone.

Suggested situation:

Area inside: Same as before
Area "at the edge" (5km wide, or 3km or whatever): You cannot target anything you can be targeted, you cannot combat boost, you cannot assist your fighters to someone.
Area outside: Same as before.

This would expose capital ships that are in space to the risk that comes with it, because to become safe they'd have to travel 5km to the inside. It would also adress the problem (if there is one) of carriers repping a POS with virtually no risk at the edge of a bubble.

About titans bridging: I would say that ships that don't have the POS password can enter the 5km area where they receive all the bad attirbutes of the bubble but not the safety that it provides. The password allows you within the inner area, you don't need it for the edge area. So ships waiting to be bridged sit at the POS in the vulnerable area while the titan sits in the invulnerable area. If someone appears and wants to fight the subcaps they will have to leave the edge area to fight back but moving 5km isn't that much of a problem, since the enemy can't web the whole fleet (and if they can, well, you're probably doomed either way).

Disclaimer: I did not consider what that changes for nullsec, since I never lived there but I assume it would work the way it's supposed to. My experience is entirely from lowsec, is what I'm saying.

PS: Thank you for sensibly nerfing things and not just smashing a ship to make it unusable in a single update. I'm kind of sad for Veigar right now, but at least in this environment, that matters a bit more to me, the laws of the universe change in a sensible way. :-)
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#166 - 2015-03-01 15:23:30 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
https://zkillboard.com/kill/44946821/

10MN AB - check
Scram - check
Pulse lasers - check
Cap booster - check
Tank in low slots - check
Not against a svipul - check

Took about 30 second to find. Fail.


LOL at the damage to kill it though XoD
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#167 - 2015-03-01 15:32:51 UTC
Senjiu Kanuba wrote:
How about changing the way the POS bubbles work? Right now a ship within a bubble cannot target anything and cannot be targeted. My proposal is that the edge of the bubble becomes wider, say, 5km wide. That would create three areas of space around a POS.

Current situation:

Area inside: You cannot target and cannot be targeted, you cannot combat boost and you cannot assist your fighters to someone.
Area outside: You can target anything within range, you can be targeted, you can combat boost, you can assist your fighters to someone.

Suggested situation:

Area inside: Same as before
Area "at the edge" (5km wide, or 3km or whatever): You cannot target anything you can be targeted, you cannot combat boost, you cannot assist your fighters to someone.
Area outside: Same as before.

This would expose capital ships that are in space to the risk that comes with it, because to become safe they'd have to travel 5km to the inside. It would also adress the problem (if there is one) of carriers repping a POS with virtually no risk at the edge of a bubble.

About titans bridging: I would say that ships that don't have the POS password can enter the 5km area where they receive all the bad attirbutes of the bubble but not the safety that it provides. The password allows you within the inner area, you don't need it for the edge area. So ships waiting to be bridged sit at the POS in the vulnerable area while the titan sits in the invulnerable area. If someone appears and wants to fight the subcaps they will have to leave the edge area to fight back but moving 5km isn't that much of a problem, since the enemy can't web the whole fleet (and if they can, well, you're probably doomed either way).

Disclaimer: I did not consider what that changes for nullsec, since I never lived there but I assume it would work the way it's supposed to. My experience is entirely from lowsec, is what I'm saying.


you can still assign fighters and be immune to pvp, just be somewhere and align to a pos/station. there's no point trying to salvage this mechanic, it adds nothing good to the game.
also a pos can have a load of stuff on it, and carriers are difficult/impossible to kill with very small gangs anyway. things would still be enormously skewed in favour of the risk averse link bads/capital bads.
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#168 - 2015-03-01 16:25:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardano Firesnake
I think the way you analyze things is the problem.

For example you are nerfing Rail guns because they are making more DPS over time. The reason is that there is more Tengu Fleet than other fleets as the heavy missiles when their were Drakes everywhere.

Just look at caracteristics of modules objectively with all 5 skills and best modules, then with the lowest skills, how they apply on best speed/signature average speed/signature lowest speed/signature.

I don't think it is so hard.

BS and BC need better Range, slightly better firepower and better tank because they will not be able to run.

Mobility is the biggest power on the battlefield, if you can't run or catch your enemy you'd better be very strong.

BS, BC and Capitals should be the kings on large scale engagements. Cruisers should be there to support the biggest ships not taking their place.

Cruisers should be the basic fleet for incursions, harrassments, and scouting. BS/BC/Capitals should be the conquest fleet.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.

ctx1769
Doomheim
#169 - 2015-03-01 19:55:17 UTC
the tengu won't be worth flying soon Roll
Esceem
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2015-03-01 21:33:13 UTC
If this balancing thingie would finally come to an end I would be so happy... *sigh*
Adaahh Gee
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#171 - 2015-03-01 22:04:30 UTC
For the T3 Balancing, is there any chance of an active rep SubSys for the Loki? (Armor/Shield or both).

Also, I was always under the understanding that T3's are very special ships, battleship DPS and tank in a cruiser size package, very skill intensive, expensive to purchase and fit well, also the only ship class to have a penalty if lost in combat. surely they should be capable, powerful and dangerous? if they get nerfed to any silly degree, they will just be replaced by HAC fleets etc.

The problem currently (which cannot easily be solved) is you have good retention of players, these players have a high average skill set, therefore, more people in any given group are able to fly T3's well. If you could get more newer players onboard, the average skill set of any given group would be dragged down.
Either that or carry on dumbing down, all the older players will leave and you can just let the new guys fight in Rifters and Merlins.
Circumstantial Evidence
#172 - 2015-03-01 22:48:12 UTC
Carrier fighters / "Skynet"

I wonder how much of the increase in this tactic, is due to the buff some time back, permitting drone mods on carriers to affect fighters? If carrier fighters went back to being much less effective at hitting something smaller than a battleship, the 'skynet' tactic might drop away. (Players who farm combat anoms in carriers wouldn't be happy.)

Fighter assist and attack-and-follow, are part of the unique ability and history of carriers and fighters, I wouldn't want to see those abilities removed entirely.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#173 - 2015-03-01 22:52:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hanibal Khan Rothschild
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2015-03-02 05:15:50 UTC
Hello CCP Rise,

I would like to express my opinion on the upcoming changes. First, I agree the Ishtar is heavily favored and used too often. I think you're rebalance concerning the Ishtar is spot on and will significantly improve PVP.

I'm not such a fan of the changes made to the Proteus. The fact players lose training when the lose a T3 is punishment enough for flying them. The train into one is significant and as such should be rewarded. I love the effective hit points my Proteus has and would appreciate if you left it as is. In my opinion the Tengu is overpowered and should be considered for rebalance, which brings me to rail guns.

Rails are under powered not over powered. Missiles are dominate in EVE right now. Rails do not provide the DPS, or the range and the tracking is a problem, which missiles do not have. In case you haven't noticed the Caldari race is like playing EVE on easy and is probably the first place you should look for a rebalance.

Please reconsider your proposed changes.

Thank you
Mr Spaxi
#175 - 2015-03-02 07:50:24 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
just wait till ccp rise & fozzie decides to nerf catalyst and well here's the flow of the dev blog

(please excuse me ccp rise but im going to copy from you.. cause well dude.. you're sooooooo pro!)

Catalayst

Problem : it kills too many ships and doesn't cost money, its one of the leading gank ships in the game
Proposal : we've decided to change its role into a .........covert electronic attack logistic strategic destroyer!

why? : cause pretty charts and pie graphs said so..

now community please provide feedback and we take this serious ok! o7



THIS! is Eve Online..

going where batchit crazy has never ever gone before!!

Resistance if futile will be NERFED!!!!!


Your parents really need to stop paying for your subscription.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#176 - 2015-03-02 11:25:19 UTC
Hanibal Khan Rothschild wrote:
Rails are under powered not over powered. Missiles are dominate in EVE right now. Rails do not provide the DPS, or the range and the tracking is a problem, which missiles do not have. In case you haven't noticed the Caldari race is like playing EVE on easy and is probably the first place you should look for a rebalance.


Sorry, what?

Maybe in PvE...
Jacus Noir
Stellar Production
#177 - 2015-03-02 11:26:32 UTC
Warp changes are incredibly annoying for battleships. The only real viability you see in them is close to staging areas unless they are T2/faction BSes in which they pose a greater movement speed. In all honesty I love the strategy in warp changes, its awesome to see a cruiser warp away, you chase after it in a ceptor, and land waiting for it to exit warp. However, I think the warp changes were a tad bit extreme.

Consider the difference between a T1 Frig and T1 BS. The frig aligns quickly, accelerates quickly, and decelerates quickly. A battleship aligns slow, accelerates slow, and decelerates slow. In all honesty, the frig is going to beat the BS on align time alone. Assuming the two are aligned perfect already, the frig still lands on the opposite side before the BS. You guys have put so much emphasis on acceleration and deceleration that its pretty painful. I do not mind warping slowly and a frigate beating me to the other side, I DO mind have to see the grid and wait forever for my ship to stop in order to do anything.

We are talking about a form of propulsion that is faster than light. In my opinion ALL ships should go into and exit warp damn near instantly. Acceleration and deceleration shouldnt even be factors in a warp. The only reason this didnt work before was because so much time is spent accelerating or decelerating that the ship's warp is pretty much split evenly 3 ways in an average warp. Accelerate, Cruise, and Decelerate. If all ships entered their max warp speed as soon as they go into warp and exited warp instantly, their warp would then be defined as their cruising (aka max warp speed) which is as it should be. In this manner a BS aligns slow, enters max warp instantly, exits max warp instantly, but is warping at 2 AU/sec. The frig likewise is aligning fast, enters warp instantly, but is warping at 5 AU/sec, and exits warp instantly.

Essentially you take out the wait time between subwarp and max warp or rather effectively reduce it to 1% of the total warp curve and thus 99% of the warp is based on the true max warp speed of the ship. Does the frig and BS have the same speed going into and leaving warp? Yes, but considering that time is a second or less, it plays such an insignificant part of the warp curve that align time and max warp is the true warp. Thus the BS and Frig may hit max warp at the same rate (1 second or less) but the frig will still overtake the BS in warp and land on the other side before it arrives. Only the Battleship pilot is given the illusion that he is going the same speed as the frig because of the lack of acceleration and deceleration times when in reality the speed differential remains the same as it is currently.
IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll
Doomheim
#178 - 2015-03-02 13:02:58 UTC
Damn that is really dumb.
You should start playing your game before patching it...Evil
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#179 - 2015-03-02 14:04:46 UTC
Sounds good to me for a first pass. Keep itterating changes like this and the game will be in a good place.
I'd much rather see people get upset as their new favourite ship gets brought down in power a bit - compared to years of Drakes online that we had at the start of the decade!

I do feel it is the tracking of the Sentry Ishtars that is the major issue rather than the outright damage.

I'm glad T3s aren't getting a huge nerf straight out, much better to let a complex ship class bed in with the changes and if further power reductions are required do so.
Mr Spaxi
#180 - 2015-03-02 16:01:47 UTC
Jacus Noir wrote:
Warp changes are incredibly annoying for battleships. The only real viability you see in them is close to staging areas unless they are T2/faction BSes in which they pose a greater movement speed. In all honesty I love the strategy in warp changes, its awesome to see a cruiser warp away, you chase after it in a ceptor, and land waiting for it to exit warp. However, I think the warp changes were a tad bit extreme.

Consider the difference between a T1 Frig and T1 BS. The frig aligns quickly, accelerates quickly, and decelerates quickly. A battleship aligns slow, accelerates slow, and decelerates slow. In all honesty, the frig is going to beat the BS on align time alone. Assuming the two are aligned perfect already, the frig still lands on the opposite side before the BS. You guys have put so much emphasis on acceleration and deceleration that its pretty painful. I do not mind warping slowly and a frigate beating me to the other side, I DO mind have to see the grid and wait forever for my ship to stop in order to do anything.

We are talking about a form of propulsion that is faster than light. In my opinion ALL ships should go into and exit warp damn near instantly. Acceleration and deceleration shouldnt even be factors in a warp. The only reason this didnt work before was because so much time is spent accelerating or decelerating that the ship's warp is pretty much split evenly 3 ways in an average warp. Accelerate, Cruise, and Decelerate. If all ships entered their max warp speed as soon as they go into warp and exited warp instantly, their warp would then be defined as their cruising (aka max warp speed) which is as it should be. In this manner a BS aligns slow, enters max warp instantly, exits max warp instantly, but is warping at 2 AU/sec. The frig likewise is aligning fast, enters warp instantly, but is warping at 5 AU/sec, and exits warp instantly.

Essentially you take out the wait time between subwarp and max warp or rather effectively reduce it to 1% of the total warp curve and thus 99% of the warp is based on the true max warp speed of the ship. Does the frig and BS have the same speed going into and leaving warp? Yes, but considering that time is a second or less, it plays such an insignificant part of the warp curve that align time and max warp is the true warp. Thus the BS and Frig may hit max warp at the same rate (1 second or less) but the frig will still overtake the BS in warp and land on the other side before it arrives. Only the Battleship pilot is given the illusion that he is going the same speed as the frig because of the lack of acceleration and deceleration times when in reality the speed differential remains the same as it is currently.


I like this, but maybe make the warp difference harder - frigates warp even faster, and battleships warp slow. After all, they are designed as immobile platforms and as such they're best used for defense.

Anyone with some more understanding of the game (compared to me) thinks that wouldn't work? I'm talking about the quoted suggestion.