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Fleet Tempest is a Flavourless Redumbdancy
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Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2015-02-27 19:45:46 UTC
fine

but this goes back to what I was saying before.

2 different ships.

Mach might be good for chasing another battleship (god knows in what situation this would ever happen) and the TFI is a solid combat brawler with a lot of different variations. It's not quite as unpredictable as the old phoon used to be but it's not easily predictable like a mach will be.

Art of Explosions
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#42 - 2015-02-27 22:40:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Boozbaz
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
fine

but this goes back to what I was saying before.

2 different ships.

Mach might be good for chasing another battleship (god knows in what situation this would ever happen) and the TFI is a solid combat brawler with a lot of different variations. It's not quite as unpredictable as the old phoon used to be but it's not easily predictable like a mach will be.


No, the Mach is better.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#43 - 2015-02-28 13:45:21 UTC
The TFI in its current form isnt horrible, its just difficult to fork out 500m for a standard pest that has better fitting and some extra buffer. The extra fitting does help with certian fits though. Ive got a few different fits for it. But the triple armor rep fit i have is pretty fun. Can tank around 2k dps and do around 800dps. With 2 utility highs it can be pretty flexible.

Not sure, but i dont think you can squeeze 3 armor reps, guns, dual cap boosters and neuts on the mach.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Asp IV
Apex Abyss
#44 - 2015-02-28 14:22:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Asp IV
TFE is the new winmatar noobship.Coming in Scyllla.

CCP give it more speed and target painting bonus.

PS.
**** rails and Ishatarsssss
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2015-02-28 15:29:06 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
fine

but this goes back to what I was saying before.

2 different ships.

Mach might be good for chasing another battleship (god knows in what situation this would ever happen) and the TFI is a solid combat brawler with a lot of different variations. It's not quite as unpredictable as the old phoon used to be but it's not easily predictable like a mach will be.


No, the Mach is better.


give reasons or you just end up looking idiotic.

And no, "it has more cpu" is not a reason.

Art of Explosions
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#46 - 2015-02-28 23:05:38 UTC  |  Edited by: God's Apples
The problem isn't that it's worse than the mach. The problem is that it costs as much as a mach despite being worse in every way.

Two utility highs don't matter. The mach does exactly and I repeat exactly as much damage as the TFI if you fit 6 guns to it. Did you get that through your thick goddamn skulls? The difference in utility highs is not a point you can argue. Now that that issue is out of the way we can move on. The mach is better than a TFI in every way except that the TFI has 5k more base ehp and an extra 50 calibration. That's it. There are no ifs, ands, or buts. The TFI is worse than the mach in regards to every other stat:

- Speed
- Damage
- Range
- Warp Speed
- Scan Res
- Sensor Strength
- Drone Bay
- Cargo Space
- CPU
- Powergrid
- Cap Pool
- Cap Regen
- Align Time
- Targeting Range

Remember, these ships cost almost exactly the same price. Now tell me what ~role~ the tempest fleet is filling?

PS: The TFI doesn't have more ~versatility~ and ~surprise~ factor. The two ships have the exact same slot layout.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2015-02-28 23:31:28 UTC
speed - irrelevant in a battleship brawl
damage- does the same damage or does slightly more while losing utility
range- already established
warp speed- again irrelevant in anything except in the situation previously described: chasing another battleship
sensor strength- ok now we are getting something actually relevant, it's an extremely small difference again.
drone bay- extra 80 dps from another heavy/senty?
cargo space- 15m3 extra, what would this actually do in a practical situation?
cpu- does this allow the mach to make a fitting that makes it vastly superior to a tempest?
powergrid- see above
cap pool- see above 2
cap regen- see above 3
align time- unless you're in a mach and smaller fleet (or solo), this does nothing
targeting range- again, any strategic relevance?


Machs have fallen in price a lot and it has made the line between the two a bit blurry now, however just saying a mach is outright better than a tempest is just wrong.

Art of Explosions
Kinborough
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#48 - 2015-02-28 23:45:09 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
speed - irrelevant in a battleship brawl
damage- does the same damage or does slightly more while losing utility
range- already established
warp speed- again irrelevant in anything except in the situation previously described: chasing another battleship
sensor strength- ok now we are getting something actually relevant, it's an extremely small difference again.
drone bay- extra 80 dps from another heavy/senty?
cargo space- 15m3 extra, what would this actually do in a practical situation?
cpu- does this allow the mach to make a fitting that makes it vastly superior to a tempest?
powergrid- see above
cap pool- see above 2
cap regen- see above 3
align time- unless you're in a mach and smaller fleet (or solo), this does nothing
targeting range- again, any strategic relevance?


Machs have fallen in price a lot and it has made the line between the two a bit blurry now, however just saying a mach is outright better than a tempest is just wrong.


A-A-Are you a chat bot?
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#49 - 2015-02-28 23:47:12 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
speed - irrelevant in a battleship brawl
damage- does the same damage or does slightly more while losing utility
range- already established
warp speed- again irrelevant in anything except in the situation previously described: chasing another battleship
sensor strength- ok now we are getting something actually relevant, it's an extremely small difference again.
drone bay- extra 80 dps from another heavy/senty?
cargo space- 15m3 extra, what would this actually do in a practical situation?
cpu- does this allow the mach to make a fitting that makes it vastly superior to a tempest?
powergrid- see above
cap pool- see above 2
cap regen- see above 3
align time- unless you're in a mach and smaller fleet (or solo), this does nothing
targeting range- again, any strategic relevance?


Machs have fallen in price a lot and it has made the line between the two a bit blurry now, however just saying a mach is outright better than a tempest is just wrong.


I wasn't aware that the only combat in this game was battleship brawling on a high sec undock. Please forgive me; I seem to have made a mistake.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2015-03-01 00:05:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tusker Crazinski
God's Apples wrote:

Two utility highs don't matter. The mach does exactly and I repeat exactly as much damage as the TFI if you fit 6 guns to it. Did you get that through your thick goddamn skulls?


actually It does much more because of the double fall off hull bonus, so the applied damage is much higher past AC non existent optimal.

10 damage and 7.5 tracking, the volley would be slightly better than the machs and you have better application with arty.

or 8 guns with 7.5 tracking and falloff like the N'apoc has would be interesting
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2015-03-01 01:14:19 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
speed - irrelevant in a battleship brawl
damage- does the same damage or does slightly more while losing utility
range- already established
warp speed- again irrelevant in anything except in the situation previously described: chasing another battleship
sensor strength- ok now we are getting something actually relevant, it's an extremely small difference again.
drone bay- extra 80 dps from another heavy/senty?
cargo space- 15m3 extra, what would this actually do in a practical situation?
cpu- does this allow the mach to make a fitting that makes it vastly superior to a tempest?
powergrid- see above
cap pool- see above 2
cap regen- see above 3
align time- unless you're in a mach and smaller fleet (or solo), this does nothing
targeting range- again, any strategic relevance?


Machs have fallen in price a lot and it has made the line between the two a bit blurry now, however just saying a mach is outright better than a tempest is just wrong.


I wasn't aware that the only combat in this game was battleship brawling on a high sec undock. Please forgive me; I seem to have made a mistake.


So you took one thing from my post, focused on that to make it look like I don't have a point.

Bravo

Art of Explosions
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#52 - 2015-03-01 04:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Boozbaz
Tsukino Stareine wrote:


So you took one thing from my post, focused on that to make it look like I don't have a point.

Bravo


By your logic, I could say that a Lamborghini isn't any better than a Toyota Corolla because we all have to drive the same speed limit anyway.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#53 - 2015-03-01 09:36:43 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:


So you took one thing from my post, focused on that to make it look like I don't have a point.

Bravo


By your logic, I could say that a Lamborghini isn't any better than a Toyota Corolla because we all have to drive the same speed limit anyway.


Which would be better for a family of 4 who are not rich?

They are two different ships that do different things.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2015-03-01 12:55:58 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:


So you took one thing from my post, focused on that to make it look like I don't have a point.

Bravo


By your logic, I could say that a Lamborghini isn't any better than a Toyota Corolla because we all have to drive the same speed limit anyway.


No by my logic it would be pointless to have a lambo when the other car is a corolla and cannot keep up with you if you go full speed.

Using real world analogies is already quite stupid when trying to make a point in a game, but if you're going to do it at least do it right.

Art of Explosions
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#55 - 2015-03-01 17:51:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
They are two different ships that do different things.


You just don't seem to get it do you. Read my post please. The mach and TFI have exactly the same slot layout with exactly the same cost. The TFI doesn't gain anything from having another utility high, because a mach can drop a gun and still have as much damage. I listed every single ship stat in the game. With the exception of a marginal increase in EHP, the mach is better than the TFI in every single stat. If you didn't get that I'll repeat it for you:

THEY ARE THE SAME SHIP EXCEPT ONE IS WORSE IN EVER SINGLE WAY.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#56 - 2015-03-01 18:01:20 UTC
They're being deliberately obtuse. Pretty much trolling at this point. No real reason to continue arguing with them.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2015-03-01 21:22:27 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They are two different ships that do different things.


You just don't seem to get it do you. Read my post please. The mach and TFI have exactly the same slot layout with exactly the same cost. The TFI doesn't gain anything from having another utility high, because a mach can drop a gun and still have as much damage. I listed every single ship stat in the game. With the exception of a marginal increase in EHP, the mach is better than the TFI in every single stat. If you didn't get that I'll repeat it for you:

THEY ARE THE SAME SHIP EXCEPT ONE IS WORSE IN EVER SINGLE WAY.


And I told YOU to tell me what strategic advantage those stats would objectively achieve, yet you just parrot on about these minor increases in stats without actually giving any reason why the mach would be better BECAUSE of those stat increases.

As far as I can see at this point, the only relevant advantages the mach has are:

1. Much better projection
2. Slightly higher sensor strength

And the TFI has the advantage of being beefier.

To me, this means that they are balanced against each other and are useful in different situations.

Art of Explosions
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2015-03-02 00:09:25 UTC
It's pretty known an old axiom - there are no bad spaceships but enough pilots who can't fly those well.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#59 - 2015-03-02 02:04:31 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
God's Apples wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They are two different ships that do different things.


You just don't seem to get it do you. Read my post please. The mach and TFI have exactly the same slot layout with exactly the same cost. The TFI doesn't gain anything from having another utility high, because a mach can drop a gun and still have as much damage. I listed every single ship stat in the game. With the exception of a marginal increase in EHP, the mach is better than the TFI in every single stat. If you didn't get that I'll repeat it for you:

THEY ARE THE SAME SHIP EXCEPT ONE IS WORSE IN EVER SINGLE WAY.


And I told YOU to tell me what strategic advantage those stats would objectively achieve, yet you just parrot on about these minor increases in stats without actually giving any reason why the mach would be better BECAUSE of those stat increases.

As far as I can see at this point, the only relevant advantages the mach has are:

1. Much better projection
2. Slightly higher sensor strength

And the TFI has the advantage of being beefier.

To me, this means that they are balanced against each other and are useful in different situations.


No it's about what role the ships fill. The TFI doesn't have the speed or projection to be used in small gang. It's limited to fleet due to these constraints. And for the role of fleet it's significantly outclassed by many other BS, including the mach which is by far a superior artillery platform given its superior projection and alpha.

Tell me what role the TFI fills that you would not use another ship for and which the mach cannot do better?

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Iyokus Patrouette
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2015-03-02 02:38:58 UTC
NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----