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[Scylla] Strategic Cruiser Defensive Subsystems

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Glasgow Dunlop
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2015-02-26 18:17:12 UTC
Tengu use in WH space - Armour

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#42 - 2015-02-26 18:19:48 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
CCP Fozzie would you please present the numbers showing the current HP stats of a Tengu with supplemental screening fit, a Legion with adaptive plating fit, and Proteus with adaptive plating fit; then compare them to the soon to be nerfed versions? Essentially please give us numerical proof that the Tengu deserves a 5% nerf AND a 200 base HP nerf while the Legion and Proteus only deserve a 2.5% nerf. I have a feeling it does, but I am not 100% sure on how to calculate the numbers.

open up eft, load up a tengu fit and switch the tengu defensive skill up and down. Since this is a 50% nerf to the bonus just imagine a tank with the skill between level 2 and 3.

http://puu.sh/gdI2g/a4b4bd0906.png this is the regular nullsec fleet tengu under links. It goes down to 200k~~ ehp after this change.
Smelly PirateWhore
Perkone
Caldari State
#43 - 2015-02-26 18:22:52 UTC
No idea what changes will be in store but if there's one thing I really, really would like to see is the Interdiction Nullifier sub and Covert Ops sub moved to the same category, i.e. offensive or whatever. That way someone has to choose either to A) be nullified OR B) be cloaky. Both at the same time are just ridiculous, especially coupled with the reasonably high agility of a tech 3 cruiser. The only way to catch a cloaky-nullified cruiser currently is for the pilot to seriously, SERIOUSLY balls up. All is required is the most basic level of competence and you are nigh-on invulnerable.

Cloaky-nullified t3 jumps in, aligns and cloaks. Re-sebo'd interceptor immediately burns at t3 and scores a decloak. Unfortunately the time it takes the interceptor to close the distance plus the added time of having to then select and lock the t3 is far more than is required for that t3 to have aligned and be entering warp. The only way that t3 is getting caught is either A) he is unlucky and spawns too close to an object to be able to cloak up (incredibly unlikely unless you have the gate surrounded by a decent-sized fleet, or have deposited cans/drones around the gate, which is of course an exploit), or B) if he has mistimed his cloak and it is not ready to be activated again since the last activation. Point B is now far less likely than in the past due to a helpful countdown indicator depicting exactly when that cooldown has finished.

I'm not even gonna get started on cloaky-nullified t3s flying around with fittings and a mobile depot in cargohold to fly to and from systems in which they will plex/run missions etc...

so yeah sorry for rant but to reiterate: I think the cloaky and nullify subs should both be on the same slot
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#44 - 2015-02-26 18:26:20 UTC
Can't spot any major issues with this change.

On a side note, any timeframe or tentative timeframe available on the full t3 rebalance? Are we likely to see it in 2015?
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#45 - 2015-02-26 18:39:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Panther X
Mimiko Severovski wrote:
All the more reasons to fly ishtars.
A step in the right direction indeed.


Ugh, really? Ishtars should be the ones getting the nerf bat. They are the most OP ship in the game. Kill the massive drone bay, forbid sentries on anything smaller than battleships. Ishtars online fixed.

Oh yeah while you're at it, fix ECM will ya? Caldari still gets the short end of the Ewar stick. I want to fly armor rainbow scorps again.

Tell ya what Fozzie, fix ECM so that it works, and you won't have to "balance" T3s anymore :)

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...
Valid Point
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2015-02-26 18:45:41 UTC
Please buff the cargo bays of all t3s
Ryu Chaos
Top Gun.
Alt Alliance
#47 - 2015-02-26 18:53:17 UTC
Hoshi wrote:
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:

an armor t3 may be able to push serious EHP, but not while pushing out dps at the same time. Tengu can do both.

Except the dps of a tengu aren't really that great. The normal fleet Tengu fit does less raw dps than the Moa (because it doesn't a drone bay). It has great damage projection but raw damage where never really a problem.



because you choose to have a bad tengu fit with 5 guns and 2 mag stabs, doesnt mean that the tengu has less dps than the moa...

@RyuChaos_
Zanquis
Hynix Galactic Industry
#48 - 2015-02-26 18:56:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zanquis
CCP Fozzie wrote:



    Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening
  • +5% Shield HP and +3% Shield Recharge Speed per level (previously +10% Shield HP)
  • Shield Capacity: 3550 (-200)
  • Signature Radius: 165 (+7)




Too far too fast Fozzie. Your hitting the tank bonus, AND the base value of the tank. Your adding a shield regeneration bonus directed at smaller engagements where a buffer passive regeneration tank might hold some water.

I can see why you need to make some adjustments to the subsystem. I only ask you take baby steps and scale it up gradually if required.

Shields come with some big inherit disadvantages that need to be considered too such as sig radius. I fear changing multiple attributes at the same time will over nerf the ship hull, and make it take longer to find its balance.

Please start with the 7.5% buffer reduction, and scrap the regeneration bonus. See how that works out, then continue if necessary. I feel the regeneration bonus is a black hole.

Regeneration tank's are doomed because they can only be overly powerful, or sub standard. This is because the nature of that tank requires a high buffer extend the period of peek recharge. This dual strength makes it overpowered when its useful, and terrible when its not. Any attempt to re-design this ship to be focused on this tank method would require a change to the mechanics of shield regeneration, and shield tanking as a whole. Committing the Tengu down this path will relegate it to obsolescence unless you commit to making passive regeneration a viable and balanced tank option that is not so black and white in effectiveness.

Overall, T3 hulls need to be seriously reviewed anyways because they literally outclass most T1 and T2 ships defeating the design guidelines that T2 should be specialized and better at their assigned specialization, while T3 focus mainly on versatility. Therefore you just need a change to temporary put these ships in a less dominant position while you re-evaluate your T3 design.
Space Captain Austrene
Industry and Exploring Federation
#49 - 2015-02-26 19:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Captain Austrene
I don't know why you're nerfing off grid boosting before buffing on grid boosting.

The bonuses from command ships and the t3 sub system needs to apply the bonus directly, only work on grid, and then you can fit a warfare module to improve the bonus.

To clarify, a claymore in wing command should give all three skirmish boosts through the hull alone. If you want to give better skirmish boosts, then you have to fit the modules.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#50 - 2015-02-26 19:04:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
You do realize that you still have like.. 2/3 of those subsystems being pretty useless right?.

You might as well come out with the t3 revamp, because this is a bandaid... A weak one at that.


Edit: reread it, ok targeted changes till the entire revamp goes in.

Ok. Not terrible.

Yaay!!!!
Saavik Ambraelle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#51 - 2015-02-26 19:07:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Saavik Ambraelle
Glasgow Dunlop wrote:
Tengu use in WH space - Armour


Not true, Lazerhawks signature heavy shield fleet is just as effective as and heavy armour fleet.

Zanquis wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:



    Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening
  • +5% Shield HP and +3% Shield Recharge Speed per level (previously +10% Shield HP)
  • Shield Capacity: 3550 (-200)
  • Signature Radius: 165 (+7)




Too far too fast Fozzie. Your hitting the tank bonus, AND the base value of the tank. Your adding a shield regeneration bonus directed at smaller engagements where a buffer passive regeneration tank might hold some water.

I can see why you need to make some adjustments to the subsystem. I only ask you take baby steps and scale it up gradually if required.

Shields come with some big inherit disadvantages that need to be considered too such as sig radius. I fear changing multiple attributes at the same time will over nerf the ship hull, and make it take longer to find its balance.

Please start with the 7.5% buffer reduction, and scrap the regeneration bonus. See how that works out, then continue if necessary. I feel the regeneration bonus is a black hole.

Regeneration tank's are doomed because they can only be overly powerful, or sub standard. This is because the nature of that tank requires a high buffer extend the period of peek recharge. This dual strength makes it overpowered when its useful, and terrible when its not. Any attempt to re-design this ship to be focused on this tank method would require a change to the mechanics of shield regeneration, and shield tanking as a whole. Committing the Tengu down this path will relegate it to obsolescence unless you commit to making passive regeneration a viable and balanced tank option that is not so black and white in effectiveness.

Overall, T3 hulls need to be seriously reviewed anyways because they literally outclass most T1 and T2 ships defeating the design guidelines that T2 should be specialized and better at their assigned specialization, while T3 focus mainly on versatility. Therefore you just need a change to temporary put these ships in a less dominant position while you re-evaluate your T3 design.

I agree with this dude.
Get rid of that ridiculous passive regen bonus on the Tengu and give back a little extra hp. A small nerf is not so bad, but a big one is nerfing wspace playstyle. You're already making it easier for dreads to hit us with the sig radius penalty.

Intoxication is the most effective of warp scramblers.
Faltzs
Thundercats
The Initiative.
#52 - 2015-02-26 19:31:35 UTC
Overall not bad changes, but I hope ccp also fixes tengus engineering subsystems, (one with the %power bonus has 2nd lowest power out put? and the one with cap recharge has the best so is clear the best to use.)
Anthar Thebess
#53 - 2015-02-26 19:36:26 UTC
Reduce armor bonus to 5% per level not 7.5% per level.

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Inslander Wessette
Unleashed' Fury
The Initiative.
#54 - 2015-02-26 19:37:47 UTC
Fozzie pls dont discriminate the tengu over the other t3's . Either make em all 7.5% or 5% . Just bcos the tengu is used more dont mean ppl cant switch to another t3 . Make em all even pls .

Nice nerfs . + 1 to u
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#55 - 2015-02-26 19:43:23 UTC
Saavik Ambraelle wrote:
Glasgow Dunlop wrote:
Tengu use in WH space - Armour


Not true, Lazerhawks signature heavy shield fleet is just as effective as and heavy armour fleet.

Zanquis wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:



    Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening
  • +5% Shield HP and +3% Shield Recharge Speed per level (previously +10% Shield HP)
  • Shield Capacity: 3550 (-200)
  • Signature Radius: 165 (+7)




Too far too fast Fozzie. Your hitting the tank bonus, AND the base value of the tank. Your adding a shield regeneration bonus directed at smaller engagements where a buffer passive regeneration tank might hold some water.

I can see why you need to make some adjustments to the subsystem. I only ask you take baby steps and scale it up gradually if required.

Shields come with some big inherit disadvantages that need to be considered too such as sig radius. I fear changing multiple attributes at the same time will over nerf the ship hull, and make it take longer to find its balance.

Please start with the 7.5% buffer reduction, and scrap the regeneration bonus. See how that works out, then continue if necessary. I feel the regeneration bonus is a black hole.

Regeneration tank's are doomed because they can only be overly powerful, or sub standard. This is because the nature of that tank requires a high buffer extend the period of peek recharge. This dual strength makes it overpowered when its useful, and terrible when its not. Any attempt to re-design this ship to be focused on this tank method would require a change to the mechanics of shield regeneration, and shield tanking as a whole. Committing the Tengu down this path will relegate it to obsolescence unless you commit to making passive regeneration a viable and balanced tank option that is not so black and white in effectiveness.

Overall, T3 hulls need to be seriously reviewed anyways because they literally outclass most T1 and T2 ships defeating the design guidelines that T2 should be specialized and better at their assigned specialization, while T3 focus mainly on versatility. Therefore you just need a change to temporary put these ships in a less dominant position while you re-evaluate your T3 design.

I agree with this dude.
Get rid of that ridiculous passive regen bonus on the Tengu and give back a little extra hp. A small nerf is not so bad, but a big one is nerfing wspace playstyle. You're already making it easier for dreads to hit us with the sig radius penalty.


Fozzie is Conan the Barbarian with the NerfBat. He never does any in babysteps.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...
Jordan Alfrir
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2015-02-26 19:48:17 UTC
Haiyooo wrote:
Id still like someone from CCP to explain the logic to nerfing ships that are 3 times the cost of the others, it is their point to be better than HAC because of cost... Just nerf everything to T1 values so the hordes can win already.

If you know what you're doing, it's not difficult to make back you ship's cost in a relatively small window of time. For example, using a tengu to solo a C3 wormhole is a very good way to make back your isk.
Zomgnomnom
Contra Ratio
GameTheory
#57 - 2015-02-26 19:51:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Zomgnomnom
Panther X wrote:


Fozzie is Conan the Barbarian with the NerfBat. He never does any in babysteps.



Except Ishtars.


Honestly though, this change is for the best. I ran it in EFT with our fit and while its not the same as what the Pizza guy posted earlier the net result is about the same. ~~200k ehp with links. Still more than sufficient.

So long as Ishtars and Bombers are also taking a shovel to the face, I have NO issues with this. The Tengu is boring to fly anyway, tons of tank....... Anemic damage.

Nerf T3's Check
Nerf Ishtars..... Waiting
Nerf Bombers..... WAITING......
Make Battleships WORTH flying....... Waiting since.... what 2012?
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#58 - 2015-02-26 19:52:57 UTC
lol @ fixing t3s = 'nerfing wspace playstyle'

why are you guys are actually happy only ever flying the same 5 ships all the time
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#59 - 2015-02-26 19:55:24 UTC
Haiyooo wrote:
Id still like someone from CCP to explain the logic to nerfing ships that are 3 times the cost of the others, it is their point to be better than HAC because of cost... Just nerf everything to T1 values so the hordes can win already.

T3s are supposed to be more versatile than T2, not necessarily better than. Flexibility ain't cheap.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Feodor Romanov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#60 - 2015-02-26 19:55:51 UTC
I do not remember when I saw PVP Tengu in lowsecs last time. Tengu mostly used in PVE and nullsec PVP. This changes can remove it from those niches to be replaced by droneboats.