These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Fleet Tempest is a Flavourless Redumbdancy
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Clara Barcelo
Abysmal Gentlemen
#21 - 2015-02-26 12:15:20 UTC
Claud Tiberius wrote:
Navy ships have always been less effective than pirate ships. Not sure why it was designed this way - I guess its just how CCP wants it to be:

Capital (generally speaking) > T3 > T2 > Pirate > Navy > T1.



Lore wise, this doesn't really make sense. Because T3 ships are property of the factions and with T3 ships being so strong ( > T2 and Pirate), you would think they would give them to the Navy's. But nope.

Why the factions let pirates and corporations (T2) build better ships than their navies - I don't know. Although I can understand why it is the case in the Caldari state.

That's all excluding the capital ships btw.


Actually you're wrong. T3 does not mean better than T2 or T2 better than Navy.

T1 and T3 focus on generalization. They can all do everything just not the best at it. or thats how CCP planned it. Planning went wrong as you see that T3 still tend to do certain things really well, but they still have the option and being something else. Like a Tengu, it can be the Nulbloc railgu. But it can be fitting in a logi role a ECM role and so forth.

T2 and Piration tend to do certain things, really really REALLY well. And suck at everything else. The Deimos being a dedicated small gang brawler, the Eagle a Snipe boat, and so forth.
Gaston Gaterau
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-02-26 13:49:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


A utility high is what you get when you have more highslots than weapon mounts. TNI has two, mach has one.

Right now you are going out of your way to come up with excuses to not fly this ship, you are the worst kind of pilot.


SO essentially, what you're arguing is that i should Fly the Navy Tempest because it's "better" at being a worse ship since it can't use a 7th turret and *has to* use a "utility" module instead.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-02-26 13:59:51 UTC
If you fit the mach with 6 guns it does exactly the same DPS as the TFI just with longer range and less tank.

Again: two different ships.

Art of Explosions
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#24 - 2015-02-26 14:58:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Boozbaz
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
If you fit the mach with 6 guns it does exactly the same DPS as the TFI just with longer range and less tank.

Again: two different ships.



+ 50% faster warp speed and acceleration
+ more drone bandwidth and bay
+ more powergrid, CPU, and capacitor
+ more scanres
+ more cargo capacity

.... I think he's right. The TFI is just a subpar version of a Machariel. (even if it does have more tank and rig fitting)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2015-02-26 15:46:56 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:

.... I think he's right. The TFI is just a subpar version of a Machariel. (even if it does have more tank and rig fitting)


Its not a mach, its the big brother of the navy cane.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2015-02-26 18:06:36 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
If you fit the mach with 6 guns it does exactly the same DPS as the TFI just with longer range and less tank.

Again: two different ships.



+ 50% faster warp speed and acceleration
+ more drone bandwidth and bay
+ more powergrid, CPU, and capacitor
+ more scanres
+ more cargo capacity

.... I think he's right. The TFI is just a subpar version of a Machariel. (even if it does have more tank and rig fitting)


Before you just turn this into a numbers comparison, think to yourself: what do these numbers allow me to do?

If you cannot do anything particular with the extra numbers that give the mach an edge, 50 free cpu is just that and does nothing for the ship.

The warp speed is great...............if everything else in the fleet is also that fast. Battleship fleets tend not to be "mach only"

More drone bandwidth and bay. Great 1 extra heavy drone or possibly sentry. Big difference? Not really.

More scan res? Ok so locking faster is never a bad thing, but it CAN be a neutral thing. When BS scan res is already that low, the extra you get from a mach is largely irrelevant.

Cargo capacity can be a good thing if the thing is cap injected or ancillary shield boosted, however the 15m3 difference isn't even enough for 1 navy 800 and allows the mach to carry ONE more navy 400 for x-large boosters. Hardly amazing.

Art of Explosions
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2015-02-26 18:47:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tusker Crazinski
republic fleet gun boats in general are flavorless

Stabber Fleet-- glorified armor rupture

hurricane Fleet-- pre nerf cane

Tempest Fleet-- tempest with bigger numbers..... except DPS and Salvo.

really I'd rather see all these ships slotted and bonuses for artillery and shielding, lord knows we cant fit those to the normal T1 hulls.

The HFI should just get the same 10 damage 7,5 tracking the brutix navy and harbinger navy gets and gain a mid at the cost of a low or high... for the love of god the Harbinger Fleet has more mids.

The tempest would actually be a noteworthy ship is it got these buffs as well.

and the stabber, 5 damage 5 tracking 5 lows 5 mids 5 highs 5 guns world make it worth while.
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#28 - 2015-02-26 22:16:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Boozbaz
Tsukino Stareine wrote:


Before you just turn this into a numbers comparison, think to yourself: what do these numbers allow me to do?

If you cannot do anything particular with the extra numbers that give the mach an edge, 50 free cpu is just that and does nothing for the ship.

The warp speed is great...............if everything else in the fleet is also that fast. Battleship fleets tend not to be "mach only"

More drone bandwidth and bay. Great 1 extra heavy drone or possibly sentry. Big difference? Not really.

More scan res? Ok so locking faster is never a bad thing, but it CAN be a neutral thing. When BS scan res is already that low, the extra you get from a mach is largely irrelevant.

Cargo capacity can be a good thing if the thing is cap injected or ancillary shield boosted, however the 15m3 difference isn't even enough for 1 navy 800 and allows the mach to carry ONE more navy 400 for x-large boosters. Hardly amazing.




You're just minimizing the differences. Let's just be real here, there are difference that make the Mach a better battleship overall. As the OP said, there are few reasons to use the TFI over the Mach - however I will add, that the biggest reason I would use the TFI (and I plan to) is that it's cost effective since I fight in Minmatar Militia, and I also just want to try out a new ship. If I had billions of isk and wanted to be as competitive as I could be in PVP, I would fly the Mach instead.
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#29 - 2015-02-26 22:21:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Boozbaz
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Stabber Fleet Issue


I agree with you on pretty much everything you said except the Stabber Fleet Issue is not just a glorified Rupture. It's one of the Minmatar fleet issue ship with interesting bonuses that set it aside from the other T1 ships in it's class (like the scythe fleet issue, for example). The Stabber Fleet Issue can field more/bigger drones, it's the only T1 Minmatar Cruiser that has a bonus to tracking speed, and it has 5 guns instead of 4, and it has no utility high slot. It's different enough to make it stand out among the other choices - in my opinion, anyways.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-02-26 23:11:17 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:

You're just minimizing the differences. Let's just be real here, there are difference that make the Mach a better battleship overall. As the OP said, there are few reasons to use the TFI over the Mach - however I will add, that the biggest reason I would use the TFI (and I plan to) is that it's cost effective since I fight in Minmatar Militia, and I also just want to try out a new ship. If I had billions of isk and wanted to be as competitive as I could be in PVP, I would fly the Mach instead.


No im not minimising anything. I'm putting the difference in an objective perspective.

I challenge anyone to find a fit that ONLY works on the mach that gives it a significant edge due to more fitting space

Art of Explosions
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#31 - 2015-02-26 23:28:09 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:

+ 50% faster warp speed and acceleration


You don't really need to continue here... This alone is massive.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2015-02-26 23:34:05 UTC
baltec is correct, TFI is a big version of Cane, and before the price drop was cheap version of Mach and yes it has better default EHP (shield/armor/hull)

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2015-02-27 00:31:41 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Stabber Fleet Issue


I agree with you on pretty much everything you said except the Stabber Fleet Issue is not just a glorified Rupture. It's one of the Minmatar fleet issue ship with interesting bonuses that set it aside from the other T1 ships in it's class (like the scythe fleet issue, for example). The Stabber Fleet Issue can field more/bigger drones, it's the only T1 Minmatar Cruiser that has a bonus to tracking speed, and it has 5 guns instead of 4, and it has no utility high slot. It's different enough to make it stand out among the other choices - in my opinion, anyways.


yes however once upon a time the stabber fleet had enough grid for a full rack of 720s, the hull bones pretty much screamed brawls with ACs but dat tracking buff worked wonders on a ship that can dictate range on most things.

now you need 3 ACRs and a PG plant to fit 720s.... and still have no tank.

The point is it's a FLEET issue vessel, and I really feel it's hull bonus should reflect that. the Exeqour and oman Navy for example is everything a fast attack fleet issue cruiser should be in my opinion. the SFI is really just heavy tackle.

and you want to talk about openning fitting options, how about we actually let one of the stabbers actually fit arty.

On another note, I really wish minmatar cruisers were stuck with 4 guns....... projectiles already dish out crap DPS, and LOL putting nuets on a stabber...... and 2 RLMLs would require an ACR or 2
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#34 - 2015-02-27 00:38:06 UTC
This topic is a bit silly.

Tfi kiting shield fit is fun but sub optimal sure.

TFI armour fit with dual web, duel neut and mjd set up is incredibly good as a solo/small gang battleship in fw zones.

Sure you could fit a mach like that but armour machs are literally space aids. Every mach with an armour fit is an afront to space ship pewpew jesus and pilots flying them should be shunned.

This topic smacks of eft warrior going loud and proud. Using the logic posed you could argue 70% of the ships in eve are pointless compared to superior alternatives.

Why fly the tfi? because people are far more likely to fight you with less than they would bring for a mach. Its engageable. Same reason i took an old school kiting ruppie out earlier this week. The vigilant is my fave kiting cruiser but i just wasnt getting fights. Got in a ruppie and suddenly people will engage.
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#35 - 2015-02-27 02:54:16 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Boozbaz wrote:

You're just minimizing the differences. Let's just be real here, there are difference that make the Mach a better battleship overall. As the OP said, there are few reasons to use the TFI over the Mach - however I will add, that the biggest reason I would use the TFI (and I plan to) is that it's cost effective since I fight in Minmatar Militia, and I also just want to try out a new ship. If I had billions of isk and wanted to be as competitive as I could be in PVP, I would fly the Mach instead.


No im not minimising anything. I'm putting the difference in an objective perspective.

I challenge anyone to find a fit that ONLY works on the mach that gives it a significant edge due to more fitting space


Now you're focusing solely on the fitting space and ignoring the increased warp speed. You're minimizing, whether you're aware of it or not.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#36 - 2015-02-27 04:04:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Ship is garbage it was and will remain.

there were up til now two massive fleet bs passes in this game that i remember and every other race ships experienced changes of various degree that essentially made them better than before except tempest fleet because reasons.

one of those reasons that make absolute 0 sense to anyone with brain is it is "bigger hurricane" and that just means it sucks even more.

never did i fly any other battleship just because it is worse version of its race battlecruiser ever period.

other than that ship track record in ANY eve online activity ever recorded in any way is rated from very bad,bad to mediocre at best and it still isn't enough for this ship to gain any meaningful upgrade.

but you know what it have two utility high slots that you can utility high slot with.

so good luck OP you wont get far.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#37 - 2015-02-27 09:28:15 UTC
Fact is that there have always been subpar faction ships; scythe, osprey and the tempest. The REAL issue is that CCP keeps on blundering with economic/scarcity stuff they don't understand, resulting in price drops on pirate ships to a point where they get close to faction ships. Since faction ship prices are linked to LP they can't really react and adapt.
Meloni HELL
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2015-02-27 11:21:36 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
republic fleet gun boats in general are flavorless

Stabber Fleet-- glorified armor rupture

hurricane Fleet-- pre nerf cane

Tempest Fleet-- tempest with bigger numbers..... except DPS and Salvo.

really I'd rather see all these ships slotted and bonuses for artillery and shielding, lord knows we cant fit those to the normal T1 hulls.

The HFI should just get the same 10 damage 7,5 tracking the brutix navy and harbinger navy gets and gain a mid at the cost of a low or high... for the love of god the Harbinger Fleet has more mids.

The tempest would actually be a noteworthy ship is it got these buffs as well.

and the stabber, 5 damage 5 tracking 5 lows 5 mids 5 highs 5 guns world make it worth while.


You leave the HFI alone. It's a fantastic ship with great history - and that description is priceless. I kinda like how loads of newer players can't quite tell the difference between the 'cane and HFI, and why it's a big deal.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-02-27 13:41:32 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Boozbaz wrote:

You're just minimizing the differences. Let's just be real here, there are difference that make the Mach a better battleship overall. As the OP said, there are few reasons to use the TFI over the Mach - however I will add, that the biggest reason I would use the TFI (and I plan to) is that it's cost effective since I fight in Minmatar Militia, and I also just want to try out a new ship. If I had billions of isk and wanted to be as competitive as I could be in PVP, I would fly the Mach instead.


No im not minimising anything. I'm putting the difference in an objective perspective.

I challenge anyone to find a fit that ONLY works on the mach that gives it a significant edge due to more fitting space


Now you're focusing solely on the fitting space and ignoring the increased warp speed. You're minimizing, whether you're aware of it or not.


And what massive advantage does the warp speed give you? You're a freaking battleship, 50% increased speed to warp will mean nothing, you will still get locked.

I've already debunked why the warp speed is also useless. All it means is you get there before your fleet, get killed or you warp at the same speed as everyone else.

Art of Explosions
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#40 - 2015-02-27 18:23:34 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Boozbaz wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Boozbaz wrote:

You're just minimizing the differences. Let's just be real here, there are difference that make the Mach a better battleship overall. As the OP said, there are few reasons to use the TFI over the Mach - however I will add, that the biggest reason I would use the TFI (and I plan to) is that it's cost effective since I fight in Minmatar Militia, and I also just want to try out a new ship. If I had billions of isk and wanted to be as competitive as I could be in PVP, I would fly the Mach instead.


No im not minimising anything. I'm putting the difference in an objective perspective.

I challenge anyone to find a fit that ONLY works on the mach that gives it a significant edge due to more fitting space


Now you're focusing solely on the fitting space and ignoring the increased warp speed. You're minimizing, whether you're aware of it or not.


And what massive advantage does the warp speed give you? You're a freaking battleship, 50% increased speed to warp will mean nothing, you will still get locked.

I've already debunked why the warp speed is also useless. All it means is you get there before your fleet, get killed or you warp at the same speed as everyone else.


You're out of your mind. The faster warp speed means that you beat your targets to gates. Which allows you to run, or run down. Other BS's don't have that option. With the warp speed changes having a warp speed bonus built into the hull is a massive advantage in small gang warfare.

-Badman