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Jump Bridge Fatigue: 5 minutes till you can enjoy this game
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bigbillthaboss3
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2015-02-23 07:39:24 UTC
Jump fatigue is a cool concept. It cuts down on the instant movement of entire coalitions and provides a buffer against migrations of entire capital fleets. Massive blocks now have a strategical disadvantage with relocating large groups of assets to enemy territory giving other entities the chance to defend. However, this mechanic was extended beyond the scope of what it should have been applied to.

Applying jump fatigue to jump bridge networks is useful. No longer do people have to worry about regional shifts of 300+ megathron fleets in minutes or... I can not think of another positive. This destroys the ability of small pvp to develop from home defense. It is a punishment for exploiting the perks of using your own space sov. Let's discuss an alternative that makes more sense.

Step 1: Jump Bridge Critical Mass

I just solved your problem and the fun of homeland defense still lives on. Instead of attaching this terrible timer mechanic to my interceptor for cutting a few jumps out of my route (so I don't spend 30 more minutes traveling and have more time in the rest of my day to enjoy real life) how about give jump bridges a capacity. Only so much mass (referring to ship mass) can pass through a given jump bridge for 'x' amount of time. X being no more than an hour, do not run away with this. Instead of punishing people trying to strategically respond to a small gang in their space or using quicker alternatives to pick more drones up because the rats killed off too many, punish mass movement. That is what this was trying to accomplish correct?

Step 2: Jump Bridge Reinforcement

Groups still need to defend their space by responding to large hostile forces. Not everyone has access to a titan. Allow jump bridges to have the option to be reinforced in case defensive responses are required. Apply a timer to that.

Tl;DR - Jump Bridge Fatigue is a dumb punishment for utilizing you own space. It is like giving someone hands and telling them not to play with themselves.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2015-02-23 07:55:08 UTC
*sigh* Jump bridges ARE power projection. The same way Titan bridging a fleet is. The same way rapidly moving capitals to and fro is.

You say that it is an annoyance that you have to take a few extra jumps (and spend the time necessary to make those jumps) to respond to a threat... or suffer jump fatigue?

Well... that is rather THE POINT behind the whole system.


If you are having trouble defending your space without using jump bridges... then you are either....

- too big and must consolidate your members/assets/territory so that everything is easier to defend.
- don't have enough people spread out to defend your space and need more bodies to actively protect it.


Also... there is another thread like this in the Assembly Hall that is several pages long... and it is equally scorned as this one soon shall be.

-1

How did you Veterans start?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3 - 2015-02-23 08:43:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Maybe if your list of blues was smaller your "home" would be smaller too and then you'd find more fights closer to where you live and wouldn't need so much jump bridge travel.

Or I guess you could just live at the edge of CFC space, wherever that is.

TL;DR - Jump Bridge Fatigue is an excellent punishment for living deep inside the safe core of a massive empire and having half the known galaxy in your blues list.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#4 - 2015-02-23 09:01:24 UTC
As previously mentioned, jump bridges are still power projection. It allows the defender to not only defend their space better, but it also allows them to stage invasions easier, which allows them to control more space. So yes, jump bridges are cheap titan bridges for your ship and should be affected by fatigue.

Besides, during your 5 minute timer for your fatigue, that doesn't stop you from jumping star gates to get to where you want to go.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Anthar Thebess
#5 - 2015-02-23 09:02:43 UTC
Reset some blue, and you will not have to use those JB to have some PVP.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#6 - 2015-02-23 12:58:56 UTC
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Instead of attaching this terrible timer mechanic to my interceptor for cutting a few jumps out of my route so I don't spend 30 more minutes traveling and have more time in the rest of my day to enjoy real life



cba to look at dotlan, how deep in the blue ball are you? 30 minutes in an inty offhand has me thinking you are deep as hell though.

Timer was applied to jb since ccp could predict, as many could, the bypass would have been make even 1 system pockets of sov on jb routes. If lost, especially with your crews's resources, the cost of lost SOV for isolated systems not a deal breaker isk wise. Maybe some CAOD chestbeating but again nothing major there end of day.
Mornak
Exotic Dancers Union
Hatakani Trade Winds Combine
#7 - 2015-02-23 14:48:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Mornak
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Step 1: Jump Bridge Critical Mass

I just solved your problem and the fun of homeland defense still lives on. Instead of attaching this terrible timer mechanic to my interceptor for cutting a few jumps out of my route (so I don't spend 30 more minutes traveling and have more time in the rest of my day to enjoy real life) how about give jump bridges a capacity. Only so much mass (referring to ship mass) can pass through a given jump bridge for 'x' amount of time. X being no more than an hour, do not run away with this. Instead of punishing people trying to strategically respond to a small gang in their space or using quicker alternatives to pick more drones up because the rats killed off too many, punish mass movement. That is what this was trying to accomplish correct?


So i'll just reship to a ceptor, take the bridge-jumps and reship into a BS? Having 10-20 BS spread out around your space to be able to reship is no big deal, it's just a question of the iskies.

This would undo the travel changes... if you have the iskies, you could circumvent the system. so no, not supported.
suid0
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#8 - 2015-02-23 15:14:31 UTC
fatigue clearly working as intended so no change needed

the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones  - Commander Ted
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2015-02-23 15:58:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Zan Shiro wrote:
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Instead of attaching this terrible timer mechanic to my interceptor for cutting a few jumps out of my route so I don't spend 30 more minutes traveling and have more time in the rest of my day to enjoy real life



cba to look at dotlan, how deep in the blue ball are you? 30 minutes in an inty offhand has me thinking you are deep as hell though.


He's GSF. Harder to get any deeper into blue space. Very tip top northwest, with only the mildly annoying few inhabitants of Venal between them and their nearest non blue, a full three regions away.

Fatigue working as intended.
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-02-23 16:26:10 UTC
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Jump fatigue is a cool concept. It cuts down on the instant movement of entire coalitions and provides a buffer against migrations of entire capital fleets. Massive blocks now have a strategical disadvantage with relocating large groups of assets to enemy territory giving other entities the chance to defend. However, this mechanic was extended beyond the scope of what it should have been applied to.

Tl;DR - Jump Bridge Fatigue is a dumb punishment for utilizing you own space. It is like giving someone hands and telling them not to play with themselves.

OP: Calling it! The Pot is actually a kettle, and its black!

Rest of us: Roll. Cause you know, when suddenly your entire alliance can up and confront the enemy from one direction, suddenly the enemy really has no reason to attack cause they outgun and out number them....hence Jump Fatigue to slow down travel. But what if you all scramble, over abuse JFatigue, and cannot counter attack the other guy attack from the other side....oops, now you know why it was created. You don't have the right to own the space, CCP just added some more risk and positive reinforcement/encouragement to parties of both sides so they have better odds when they make their choices.

There is also this thing. It does stuff. Its called Racial Industrials , fit for align time with some warp stabs and minor buffer should you need it (not that it really helps all that much P).


Role bonus:
90% reduction to effective distance traveled for jump fatigue

There is also that other thing. It does stuff as well. Its called Interceptors, align fast, immune to warp bubbles, and warp across systems incredible fast. Now you cannot have a utility ship that does everything, now you need everything (aka multiple ships) to do anything. Plan accordingly.

Two counters to jump fatigue and limited jump range, requiring you to risk jump gates. Again, reason is you don't have the right to own the entire region, its to limit you and get someone else to attack you, plan accordling, don't screw up, and well....being that the OP is goons....I would never wish them good luck, hope their alliance DIAF brilliantly like BoB years ago just cause goons are A-hats Blink.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2015-02-23 16:28:33 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Instead of attaching this terrible timer mechanic to my interceptor for cutting a few jumps out of my route so I don't spend 30 more minutes traveling and have more time in the rest of my day to enjoy real life



cba to look at dotlan, how deep in the blue ball are you? 30 minutes in an inty offhand has me thinking you are deep as hell though.


He's GSF. Harder to get any deeper into blue space. Very tip top northwest, with only the mildly annoying few inhabitants of Venal between them and their nearest non blue, a full three regions away.

Fatigue working as intended.



I got four days of fatigue moving a PVE ship across one single region.

I'm sure it's 'working as intended' to cripple my ability to actually fight for four days because I wanted to go home from an incursion.


And how do you feel about wormholes? We use those to slam fleets across the galaxy faster than any JB network. Surely that's power projection that needs removing too?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2015-02-23 16:58:06 UTC
I just went 22 jumps in an inty in 15 minutes.


@Danika Princip: Heaven forfend you use a gate.
Degnar Oskold
Moira.
#13 - 2015-02-23 17:15:16 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:


I'm sure it's 'working as intended' to cripple my ability to actually fight for four days because I wanted to go home from an incursion.


Why not fight whoever lives 3 systems away from your home? Less blue, more fight.
Reina Xyaer
Tha Lench Mob
#14 - 2015-02-23 17:23:45 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Instead of attaching this terrible timer mechanic to my interceptor for cutting a few jumps out of my route so I don't spend 30 more minutes traveling and have more time in the rest of my day to enjoy real life



cba to look at dotlan, how deep in the blue ball are you? 30 minutes in an inty offhand has me thinking you are deep as hell though.


He's GSF. Harder to get any deeper into blue space. Very tip top northwest, with only the mildly annoying few inhabitants of Venal between them and their nearest non blue, a full three regions away.

Fatigue working as intended.



I got four days of fatigue moving a PVE ship across one single region.

I'm sure it's 'working as intended' to cripple my ability to actually fight for four days because I wanted to go home from an incursion.


And how do you feel about wormholes? We use those to slam fleets across the galaxy faster than any JB network. Surely that's power projection that needs removing too?



Actually, it's not crippling your ability to 'fight', just your ability to 'jump' (anything other than stargate travel). So you live in your Sov space, but decided to fly out to an incursion, then take some kind of jump bridge/titan back to Sov space, and you got 4 days of fatigue... well there you go. You had to make a choice between leaving your alliance Sov to run an Incursion, or being able to jump and respond to local threats more quickly.

When Jump fatigue was first announced, I was one of the naysayers. Now I see exactly what it's intent is, and why it's a good thing.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2015-02-23 17:59:19 UTC
Degnar Oskold wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:


I'm sure it's 'working as intended' to cripple my ability to actually fight for four days because I wanted to go home from an incursion.


Why not fight whoever lives 3 systems away from your home? Less blue, more fight.



Because three systems won't support a group bigger than about a hundred people if you're lucky?

Reina Xyaer wrote:



Actually, it's not crippling your ability to 'fight', just your ability to 'jump' (anything other than stargate travel). So you live in your Sov space, but decided to fly out to an incursion, then take some kind of jump bridge/titan back to Sov space, and you got 4 days of fatigue... well there you go. You had to make a choice between leaving your alliance Sov to run an Incursion, or being able to jump and respond to local threats more quickly.

When Jump fatigue was first announced, I was one of the naysayers. Now I see exactly what it's intent is, and why it's a good thing.


An incursion that was all of one jump outside of the region. I am talking single region travel here, or do you view holding one region as too much?
Marsha Mallow
#16 - 2015-02-23 18:28:19 UTC
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Step 1: Jump Bridge Critical Mass

I just solved your problem and the fun of homeland defense still lives on. Instead of attaching this terrible timer mechanic to my interceptor for cutting a few jumps out of my route (so I don't spend 30 more minutes traveling and have more time in the rest of my day to enjoy real life) how about give jump bridges a capacity. Only so much mass (referring to ship mass) can pass through a given jump bridge for 'x' amount of time. X being no more than an hour, do not run away with this. Instead of punishing people trying to strategically respond to a small gang in their space or using quicker alternatives to pick more drones up because the rats killed off too many, punish mass movement. That is what this was trying to accomplish correct?

The Phoebe changes were a nerf to force projection, not the movement of ships by class. Your idea would allow people to scatter caches of ships and use JBs in smaller ships to minimise fatigue. 1000 scrubs in frigs is still force projection btw.

bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Step 2: Jump Bridge Reinforcement

Groups still need to defend their space by responding to large hostile forces. Not everyone has access to a titan. Allow jump bridges to have the option to be reinforced in case defensive responses are required. Apply a timer to that.

Jump bridges can already be reinforced Roll

As it stands with home defence, the defender has all the advantages. Groups coming into your space have to get past choke points, probably eat a bit of fatigue, travel for ages to find anything and when they get there you can drop caps/supers or a blob flying a specific counter. Or you can just dock up/hide at a POS and screech in local. Stop whining and go roam hostile space (if you can find any) and you might notice it's a hell of a lot more difficult than defending an AFK empire. If groups are good enough to get a gang into a densely populated area, they'll get kills because they're competent - not because game mechanics are slanted in their favour.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Sigras
Conglomo
#17 - 2015-02-23 18:46:18 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Degnar Oskold wrote:
Why not fight whoever lives 3 systems away from your home? Less blue, more fight.

Because three systems won't support a group bigger than about a hundred people if you're lucky?

Yep exactly, you get the advantages of safety and friends at the cost of local quick fights...

If you want quicker PvP break up your big bouncing blue ball...
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2015-02-23 18:49:49 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Degnar Oskold wrote:
Why not fight whoever lives 3 systems away from your home? Less blue, more fight.

Because three systems won't support a group bigger than about a hundred people if you're lucky?

Yep exactly, you get the advantages of safety and friends at the cost of local quick fights...

If you want quicker PvP break up your big bouncing blue ball...



Okay, what you you think is the 'right' amount of systems for a group to hold?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#19 - 2015-02-23 18:56:03 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Degnar Oskold wrote:
Why not fight whoever lives 3 systems away from your home? Less blue, more fight.

Because three systems won't support a group bigger than about a hundred people if you're lucky?

Yep exactly, you get the advantages of safety and friends at the cost of local quick fights...

If you want quicker PvP break up your big bouncing blue ball...



Okay, what you you think is the 'right' amount of systems for a group to hold?


If I get what I want we will be reduced to just dek.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#20 - 2015-02-23 19:04:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
Danika Princip wrote:
I'm sure it's 'working as intended' to cripple my ability to actually fight for four days because I wanted to go home from an incursion.

TNT, FCON, and SMA are literally right next to you. Pew-pew with them if you're buried too deep, far away from anybody else.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
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