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Missiles
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Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#41 - 2015-02-22 05:15:47 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Aerie Evingod wrote:
About 2-3 years and a 8-10(?) content, rebalancing and tiericide patches later we have the OP Ishtar, but this thread was started regarding why HM were nerfed 2-3 years ago, not about the current OP flavor of the year. The current meta of Eve is not applicable.


How you know? You were not there when that happened..


I'll give you some options:

1) I sold my original character and started over with a new one.

2) I have a time machine.

3) I have more than one character.


Obviously it's option #2.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#42 - 2015-02-22 09:50:16 UTC
Aerie Evingod wrote:
Patri Andari wrote:
In one patch, CCP reduced the range and "tracking" of a weapon that had never been seen as OP based on the way it was used when massed. The stats when used solo or small gang or in PVE were never seen as OP.

This may perhaps be seen as the biggest use of the "nerf hammer" by some because of those facts. As a result, ships that use heavy missiles for PVE, solo, or in small gangs are overly made to suffer.

Lesson learned? IDK Do not mass?


Whine whine whine. Heavy missiles were massively over powered. No one fit HAMs because heavies had fantastic range, 90% the damage and lighter fitting requirements. PvE Tengus fit exclusively HML. The HML drake was the most common PvP and HML were the most common weapon system.


and then in that same nerf thread they tell you "if you feel like we keep nerfing your favourite ships then congratulations that just means you're ahead of the herd in identifying powerful setups".

and then look at the double LSE/RLML cerberus, as soon as that was made public every dickhead and his dog started using it which prompted CCP to swing the nerf bat with great celerity. Never seen a faster nerf to anything in my whole life.

and then the rate of use dropped so incredibly much that they had to buff it in order to convince people to use them, effectively making them almost as good as they were before sans 80-charge ammo cap.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#43 - 2015-02-22 12:34:49 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
and then look at the double LSE/RLML cerberus, as soon as that was made public every dickhead and his dog started using it which prompted CCP to swing the nerf bat with great celerity.


That one was more *well, RLML launchers now are superior to heavies in every situation and superior to HAMs in nearly any situation, we're gonna add a downside*. Then they introduced frontloaded damage, which turned the RLML even more OP for smaller gangs, as their cerbs went from constant 430dps or what it was to short periods of 600ish dps.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#44 - 2015-02-22 22:55:03 UTC
Miali Askulf wrote:

What I was saying is that there's no "short range" style ammo for HMLs like there is with long range guns, not that fury was the longest range ammo (which it's obviously not) - missiles don't do bad damage at the ranges they hit at (ie if you're shooting at something 40km away HMLs are competitive. If you're shooting at something 20km away, it's an entirely different story.

I used fury as an example specifically because it's shorter ranged - but even then it's still much closer to the longer range ammo than short.


technically, T2 Precision Heavy is short range ammo. It sacrifice range for higher damage application while do same damage as standard missile (non-faction)

On Drake with Char 5 and no rig/implant, Precision have 31km range, Fury do 47km, then Standard do 63km.

Voyager Arran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2015-02-22 23:19:07 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
and then look at the double LSE/RLML cerberus, as soon as that was made public every dickhead and his dog started using it which prompted CCP to swing the nerf bat with great celerity.


That one was more *well, RLML launchers now are superior to heavies in every situation and superior to HAMs in nearly any situation, we're gonna add a downside*. Then they introduced frontloaded damage, which turned the RLML even more OP for smaller gangs, as their cerbs went from constant 430dps or what it was to short periods of 600ish dps.


Confirming that RLML Cerbs / Caracals are obnoxiously strong in small-gang warfare, to say nothing of the unholy monster that is the RLML Orthrus.

Their reload times are greatly mitigated by being able to fight from noncomittal ranges and being virtually unapproachable for tackle.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2015-02-23 04:35:22 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:

Yes but those long range weapons won't track up close, they HAVE to switch ammo so you can't just hop target ranges all the time.


This. Missiles require no range control beyond keeping the target inside your generous effective range, and flying you ship has no real consequences on their effectiveness.

and no drakes like all missiles ships absolutely suck for fleet fights, they can't alpha strike and if the DPS is too much... which you always needed a lot of launchers for that to be the case your missiles could just be firewalled.......... or simply warp away from the missiles

they were just used in mass because they had a massive tank, and are very easy for pretty much anyone and some canine to use.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2015-02-23 08:11:13 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:

Yes but those long range weapons won't track up close, they HAVE to switch ammo so you can't just hop target ranges all the time.


This. Missiles require no range control beyond keeping the target inside your generous effective range, and flying you ship has no real consequences on their effectiveness.



True, though just moving with in the range will reduce that damage and unlike with turrets there is little you can do about it with piloting your self, moving with a prop mode will make the damage almost laughable.
countering those prop mods will get you close range again.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#48 - 2015-02-24 11:04:43 UTC
As I demonstrated in an earlier thread, HML will lose 44% dps against a cruiser that is simply moving.

By comparison, cruises lose 0% and lights lose about 16-33%. Someone said to me that heavies were balanced and I simply laughed. They're not balanced, not even internally against their own weapons system. They're terrible and anyone who says otherwise is a complete idiot. Oh, p.s. they also only get about 45km range on an unbonused ship so don't tell me they're incredibly far reaching when a railgun fit will hit out to 100km with more dps.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#49 - 2015-02-24 11:25:48 UTC
Voyager Arran wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
and then look at the double LSE/RLML cerberus, as soon as that was made public every dickhead and his dog started using it which prompted CCP to swing the nerf bat with great celerity.


That one was more *well, RLML launchers now are superior to heavies in every situation and superior to HAMs in nearly any situation, we're gonna add a downside*. Then they introduced frontloaded damage, which turned the RLML even more OP for smaller gangs, as their cerbs went from constant 430dps or what it was to short periods of 600ish dps.


Confirming that RLML Cerbs / Caracals are obnoxiously strong in small-gang warfare, to say nothing of the unholy monster that is the RLML Orthrus.

Their reload times are greatly mitigated by being able to fight from noncomittal ranges and being virtually unapproachable for tackle.


I neglected to mention the XL-ASB the cerb could fit.

6x RLML
2x LSE II
1x XL-ASB
hardeners
damage mods
2 rigs

The end result was an incredibly tough to kill thing which could wade through entire fleets of smaller vessels. As for RLML orthrus that ship is over rated. 10 effective weapons vs a cerbs 9.3 effective at significantly higher cost and as for being hard to catch it's not *that* much faster than other cruisers. There is a lot more to the story than meets the eye for sure.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2015-02-24 12:41:03 UTC
I prefer the orth for a few reasons - genuinely is significantly faster than anything which will scare it*. Defensive scram*. Omni damage bonuses to weapons. Damage bonus is not RoF is is less hurt by reload impacts on sustained DPS. Also gets an extra rig.

*The real horror here is down to how these scale with links.

Apart from cost, it's preferable to a cerb in almost all situations outside of huge fleets, and no-one uses missiles in those anyway.
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