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IDEA - 0.0 Local and Scan Changes and Etc
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suicide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1 - 2015-02-22 15:53:27 UTC
It always has struck me as strange that a ship can hit system, scan and land on your mining ship after like 25s. Probes are too powerful when it comes to scanning down ships. Perhaps the difficulty of scanning down a ship has more to do with how much power they are using and what in the area might screw with the scan, and stuff like that. Maybe there could be modules or deployables to make detection and probing harder for an enemy.

The current formula is weird where your ECCM resistance affects things, which doesn't make sense. Maybe you can hide by turning off all your modules and sitting really close to a big rock, making both long and short range scans less effective. Taking into account your surroundings, power usage, ship size and any other factors (space effects? solar interference? hiding behind planet?)

Scan probes aren't perfect but D-Scan is? That needs to change. It needs to be vague and decreasing information and accuracy the further away it gets. An omnipotent D-Scan is silly and not very realistic.

A solar system should be able to support 100 pilots doing PvE, Mining, Gas Hunting, Site Running, Missioning, whatever. There needs to be enough ships doing "stuff" and need to be hard enough to find so that a roaming gang can kill maybe 2-5 before the rest run and hide. This is adding the protection of numbers making the idea of actually mining in 0.0 a viable option. Think like big herds of animals being persued by alpha preditors.

My proposal is the introduction of a Sov deployable which provides Local Chat, Taxation, and "Halp I am attacked in belt" for a 0.0 system. A ship can choose to register with this sytem (citizen) or not (outlaw). All registered pilots are taxed by the Sov holding entity on their activities as configured by the module. All unregistered pilots can be marked as KOS to those registered with the system. As a bonus any pilot that gets in trouble can press a panic button allowing all friendly pilots to warp to them to assist.

Just ideas.
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-02-22 16:17:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmer Jones
25 seconds is alot of time to gtfo

Anyone hitting the "halp tackled in the belt" button would probably be laughed at in any chat box for the alliance

Reds are already kos, Intel channels are kind of obvious.

Some ships are immune to d-scan, try mining in them with a cloak handy.

Edit: bad idea thread is thataway ∆. As a frequent contributor to that thread, I suggest posting an abbreviated version there.
Bad posters, we can smell our own.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
suicide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3 - 2015-02-22 17:16:55 UTC
Zimmer Jones wrote:
25 seconds is alot of time to gtfo

Anyone hitting the "halp tackled in the belt" button would probably be laughed at in any chat box for the alliance

Reds are already kos, Intel channels are kind of obvious.

Some ships are immune to d-scan, try mining in them with a cloak handy.

Edit: bad idea thread is thataway ∆. As a frequent contributor to that thread, I suggest posting an abbreviated version there.
Bad posters, we can smell our own.


I pity your EVE playstyle.

My ideas are pure genius. And if you can't see that. Well. You are a dinosaur.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2015-02-22 18:50:22 UTC
suicide wrote:
Zimmer Jones wrote:
25 seconds is alot of time to gtfo

Anyone hitting the "halp tackled in the belt" button would probably be laughed at in any chat box for the alliance

Reds are already kos, Intel channels are kind of obvious.

Some ships are immune to d-scan, try mining in them with a cloak handy.

Edit: bad idea thread is thataway ∆. As a frequent contributor to that thread, I suggest posting an abbreviated version there.
Bad posters, we can smell our own.


I pity your EVE playstyle.

My ideas are pure genius. And if you can't see that. Well. You are a dinosaur.



I wonder who's alt you might be.

Roll
Iain Cariaba
#5 - 2015-02-22 19:01:01 UTC
suicide wrote:
Zimmer Jones wrote:
25 seconds is alot of time to gtfo

Anyone hitting the "halp tackled in the belt" button would probably be laughed at in any chat box for the alliance

Reds are already kos, Intel channels are kind of obvious.

Some ships are immune to d-scan, try mining in them with a cloak handy.

Edit: bad idea thread is thataway ∆. As a frequent contributor to that thread, I suggest posting an abbreviated version there.
Bad posters, we can smell our own.


I pity your EVE playstyle.

My ideas are pure genius. And if you can't see that. Well. You are a dinosaur.

Genius? StraightSmileBig smileLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLol

Phew...

Oh thank you, I needed a good belly laugh this morning.


  1. If you cannot get your mining ship out of a belt in under 5s, you deserve to lose the ship.
  2. Probes are only powerful if the prober knows where you are already. Otherwise, he has to find you.
  3. Turn off modules and hide really close to an asteroid? No thank you. Back when I used to mine I found it far, far easier to simply GTFO of the belt when hostiles hit local. Not to mention that once you GTFO of the belt, they can't simply warp to the belt and see you anyway.
  4. D-Scan is not omnipotent. Simply stay farther than 15AU from any gates and D-Scan cannot see you. If you don't have a place to mine outside that range, then move to a system that does.
  5. A solar system supporting 100 PvE pilots? Don't be ridiculous. At that point, what would be the reason to try to hold more than one system?
  6. Nullsec mining is entirely viable, you're apparently doing it wrong if you think otherwise.
  7. The fact that you feel a need for a "Halp, I'm not smart enough to warp out of the belt when neuts show up" button simply reinforces #6.
  8. As already pointed out, throughout most of nullsec anything not blue is KOS. Those of us who know what's going on don't need to spend isk on some deployable to tell us who we can shoot.
  9. You want people to be able to warp to you when you fail to warp out of a belt? That's what fleets are for.
suicide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#6 - 2015-02-22 19:11:06 UTC
Change is scary, I know.

One of the points I would like to highlight in the idea originally presented was that Local becomes an opt-in function and controlled by the entity holding sov.

There is a very good chance that Ebil Piwates would not opt-in and therefore the "warp in 5s" argument is sorta not relevant.
suicide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#7 - 2015-02-22 19:17:36 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:


  • A solar system supporting 100 PvE pilots? Don't be ridiculous. At that point, what would be the reason to try to hold more than one system?



    • Yeah our solar system couldn't provide gainful activity for 100 pilots.

    So silly, what was I thinking?
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #8 - 2015-02-22 19:27:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
    Ribbing aside (these are the Eve forums after all), there is nothing wrong in principle with the idea that ships could use local cover to evade detection via probes and system scans.

    For example, it's reasonable that if a ship is the other side of a sun or planet, it would be impossible to detect using any kind of EM detection equipment.

    The idea of using environmental 'chaff' such as asteroids to confuse sensors seems reasonable to me.

    It's also not unreasonable for d-scan to take longer to detect ships further away. If we were to assume that it's similar to a radar ping then a ship at 1AU distance would take 16 minutes to detect in 'real' life.

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
    Iain Cariaba
    #9 - 2015-02-22 19:31:57 UTC
    suicide wrote:
    Iain Cariaba wrote:


  • A solar system supporting 100 PvE pilots? Don't be ridiculous. At that point, what would be the reason to try to hold more than one system?



    • Yeah our solar system couldn't provide gainful activity for 100 pilots.

    So silly, what was I thinking?

    Wow, so our solar system has multiple asteroid belts that are only a few hundred kilometers long orbiting the planets that regenerate their contents every couple days? I didn't know that. The moons in our solar system can be mined for one specific material, and that one specific material will never, ever deplete? Wow, then why haven't we started mining the moons instead of depleting the resources on our planet? Oh wait, we don't use up the resources on our planet. We simply move the mines and wells, and the planetary resources automatically renew, right?

    Yes, it is silly to compare reality to a video game, glad you can agree on that.
    Iain Cariaba
    #10 - 2015-02-22 19:37:22 UTC
    suicide wrote:
    Change is scary, I know.

    Regardless of the scariness level of change, a bad idea is still a bad idea.
    suicide
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #11 - 2015-02-22 20:02:33 UTC
    Iain Cariaba wrote:
    suicide wrote:
    Iain Cariaba wrote:


  • A solar system supporting 100 PvE pilots? Don't be ridiculous. At that point, what would be the reason to try to hold more than one system?



    • Yeah our solar system couldn't provide gainful activity for 100 pilots.

    So silly, what was I thinking?

    Wow, so our solar system has multiple asteroid belts that are only a few hundred kilometers long orbiting the planets that regenerate their contents every couple days? I didn't know that. The moons in our solar system can be mined for one specific material, and that one specific material will never, ever deplete? Wow, then why haven't we started mining the moons instead of depleting the resources on our planet? Oh wait, we don't use up the resources on our planet. We simply move the mines and wells, and the planetary resources automatically renew, right?

    Yes, it is silly to compare reality to a video game, glad you can agree on that.


    Having to keep people starving to expand their space which they can't pay for or defend because they are starving.... It drives conflict I guess but the biggest problem overall is that most alliances are not even trying too hard to get sov aside from principle.

    I guess yeah it is a game, and yeah the planets don't spin or orbit or have weather and the billions or trillions of people on the planets seem to apparently not exist outside of DUST players.

    Being able to go "deep" in a system or constellation allowing it to support more and more industry and pilots and such would be great. And having the ability to tax the activity even better.



    eve is real
    elitatwo
    Zansha Expansion
    Brave Collective
    #12 - 2015-02-22 20:05:39 UTC
    suicide wrote:
    It always has struck me as strange that a ship can hit system, scan and land on your mining ship after like 25s. Probes are too powerful when it comes to scanning down ships....


    Mobile scan inhibitor unit anyone??

    Eve Minions is recruiting.

    This is the law of ship progression!

    Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
    Iain Cariaba
    #13 - 2015-02-22 20:12:21 UTC
    suicide wrote:
    Iain Cariaba wrote:
    suicide wrote:
    Iain Cariaba wrote:


  • A solar system supporting 100 PvE pilots? Don't be ridiculous. At that point, what would be the reason to try to hold more than one system?



    • Yeah our solar system couldn't provide gainful activity for 100 pilots.

    So silly, what was I thinking?

    Wow, so our solar system has multiple asteroid belts that are only a few hundred kilometers long orbiting the planets that regenerate their contents every couple days? I didn't know that. The moons in our solar system can be mined for one specific material, and that one specific material will never, ever deplete? Wow, then why haven't we started mining the moons instead of depleting the resources on our planet? Oh wait, we don't use up the resources on our planet. We simply move the mines and wells, and the planetary resources automatically renew, right?

    Yes, it is silly to compare reality to a video game, glad you can agree on that.


    Having to keep people starving to expand their space which they can't pay for or defend because they are starving.... It drives conflict I guess but the biggest problem overall is that most alliances are not even trying too hard to get sov aside from principle.

    I guess yeah it is a game, and yeah the planets don't spin or orbit or have weather and the billions or trillions of people on the planets seem to apparently not exist outside of DUST players.

    Being able to go "deep" in a system or constellation allowing it to support more and more industry and pilots and such would be great. And having the ability to tax the activity even better.



    eve is real



    Oh, if only CCP were actively working on the sov system. Roll
    Godfrey Silvarna
    Arctic Light Inc.
    Arctic Light
    #14 - 2015-02-22 20:16:34 UTC
    No.
    Zimmer Jones
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #15 - 2015-02-22 22:56:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmer Jones
    suicide wrote:
    Iain Cariaba wrote:
    suicide wrote:
    Iain Cariaba wrote:


  • A solar system supporting 100 PvE pilots? Don't be ridiculous. At that point, what would be the reason to try to hold more than one system?



    • Yeah our solar system couldn't provide gainful activity for 100 pilots.

    So silly, what was I thinking?

    Wow, so our solar system has multiple asteroid belts that are only a few hundred kilometers long orbiting the planets that regenerate their contents every couple days? I didn't know that. The moons in our solar system can be mined for one specific material, and that one specific material will never, ever deplete? Wow, then why haven't we started mining the moons instead of depleting the resources on our planet? Oh wait, we don't use up the resources on our planet. We simply move the mines and wells, and the planetary resources automatically renew, right?

    Yes, it is silly to compare reality to a video game, glad you can agree on that.


    Having to keep people starving to expand their space which they can't pay for or defend because they are starving.... It drives conflict I guess but the biggest problem overall is that most alliances are not even trying too hard to get sov aside from principle.

    I guess yeah it is a game, and yeah the planets don't spin or orbit or have weather and the billions or trillions of people on the planets seem to apparently not exist outside of DUST players.

    Being able to go "deep" in a system or constellation allowing it to support more and more industry and pilots and such would be great. And having the ability to tax the activity even better.

    off topic and shiptoasting in your own thread to boot. Pure genius.

    Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
    Lyra Gerie
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #16 - 2015-02-22 23:55:58 UTC
    suicide wrote:
    It always has struck me as strange that a ship can hit system, scan and land on your mining ship after like 25s. Probes are too powerful when it comes to scanning down ships. Perhaps the difficulty of scanning down a ship has more to do with how much power they are using and what in the area might screw with the scan, and stuff like that. Maybe there could be modules or deployables to make detection and probing harder for an enemy.


    It's only too easy for a pilot who has decent probes, launcher, and skills and possibly a ship suited to scanning. Even then 25 seconds is a LONG time for you to notice +1 in local, hit D-scan to look for a ship or probes, and get out of dodge.

    Quote:

    The current formula is weird where your ECCM resistance affects things, which doesn't make sense. Maybe you can hide by turning off all your modules and sitting really close to a big rock, making both long and short range scans less effective. Taking into account your surroundings, power usage, ship size and any other factors (space effects? solar interference? hiding behind planet?)[\quote]

    While I do like the idea of being able to semi hide from probes this way it would require a decent rework of the entire probing mechanic and D-scan. Given their extreme use in W-space this is unlikely to happen in a way that wouldn't completely break W-space. Not to mention it's uses in null and low for players adept at using D-scan.

    Quote:

    Scan probes aren't perfect but D-Scan is? That needs to change. It needs to be vague and decreasing information and accuracy the further away it gets. An omnipotent D-Scan is silly and not very realistic.


    It is what it is, for the same reasons as above it is unlikely to change just because you don't like it and it doesn't feel "realistic". It's not realistic that we can travel up to 25+ AU a second or maneuver ships without any thrusters but those in the rear of the ship but that bit doesn't bother you because it just works. Same with D-scan and probes.

    Quote:

    A solar system should be able to support 100 pilots doing PvE, Mining, Gas Hunting, Site Running, Missioning, whatever. There needs to be enough ships doing "stuff" and need to be hard enough to find so that a roaming gang can kill maybe 2-5 before the rest run and hide. This is adding the protection of numbers making the idea of actually mining in 0.0 a viable option. Think like big herds of animals being persued by alpha preditors.


    This doesn't quite make sense, this is what happens already. It's called high sec. If you want to do stuff in low/null/w-space you have to be willing to deal with the risk involved not reduce the risk of this space so you can care bear the same in those areas as you do in high sec. Basically if you want safe haven stay in high sec, if you want to do things the risky slightly more profitable way, go to low or null. Don't complain that those areas aren't safe enough, that's the point.

    [quote]
    My proposal is the introduction of a Sov deployable which provides Local Chat, Taxation, and "Halp I am attacked in belt" for a 0.0 system. A ship can choose to register with this sytem (citizen) or not (outlaw). All registered pilots are taxed by the Sov holding entity on their activities as configured by the module. All unregistered pilots can be marked as KOS to those registered with the system. As a bonus any pilot that gets in trouble can press a panic button allowing all friendly pilots to warp to them to assist.

    Just ideas.


    There are already functions in place for local chat and taxation. Taxes work through corps, if your corp or alliance isn't providing protection or early warning that's not the games fault, it's yours. Same goes for the help im under attack, it's called jabber, or vent, or teamspeak or any goddamn 3rd party voice or chat software. Have your whole corp and or alliance use one and boom instant communication/help/whatever. There are also standings which show you, on your overview no less, those with -5 or -10 standings, neutral and even +5 and +10 standings. Set them and boom solved.
    Taxes, again corp related and already exists. Considering you're likely in low/null all pilots are already KOS even more so if you utilize standings to identify pilots you run across.

    So basically you suggested nothing more then what is already in the game and to redo probe and d-scan. So -1
    Lienzo
    Amanuensis
    #17 - 2015-02-23 00:16:16 UTC
    Miners tend to be at an extreme disadvantage in WH space, mainly because the whole belt-engagement system was designed wtih local tanking in mind. They are always on d-scan, while their assailants never are.

    I very much favor the idea of making belts very much larger, and then adding both invisible warp disruption bubbles and scan inhibitor arrays into each and every asteroid.

    The bigger belts are, and the farther we have to travel into them, the more the utility of Miasmoi, Orcas, and Rorquals is enhanced, especially if belt grids are functionally deadspace grids. Multi-grid belts are a worthwhile goal, especially if procedural generation is a possibility.

    There's also a big risk/reward gap. So called "high ends" are worthless because their volumetric demand is low. You could treble the price of megacyte and it will generally only increase the build price of a t1 hull by 1% or less. Consequently, risk needs to be rewarded by ore concentration, with the concentrated veldspars being found in "player secured" space. They need to have a ramp up at least significant enough to make protection rational. I'd say 25-50% per concentration tier.
    Serendipity Lost
    Repo Industries
    #18 - 2015-02-23 02:31:47 UTC
    I like this change. We could go the next logical step and finish it. Ships should be able to R-click their desired PVE content from the safety of the docking ring, pick "gather XXXXX" and have it magically go to your hold. That way those pesky deterents (d-scan and probes) would be minimized.

    This change would drive conflict because everyone would be on the undock and easy to find.

    It would also enhance gameplay because there would no longer be a need to provide defense for the players in your corp, set up defensive bubbles or any of the other 'time wasting' features that make this game a boring grind. We could all just get down to making quick easy isk, stacking it high and paying tax to our overlords. All would be perfect.

    A BIG +1
    Donnachadh
    United Allegiance of Undesirables
    #19 - 2015-02-23 02:41:12 UTC
    -1

    suicide wrote:
    It always has struck me as strange that a ship can hit system, scan and land on your mining ship after like 25s. Probes are too powerful when it comes to scanning down ships. Perhaps the difficulty of scanning down a ship has more to do with how much power they are using and what in the area might screw with the scan, and stuff like that. Maybe there could be modules or deployables to make detection and probing harder for an enemy.

    Surprised that no one has mentioned this.
    Even with perfect scan skills, the best scan equipment in the game AND a set of plus 10 implants it would be very hard to launch probes, pull a scan look over the results and select the belt with a potential ship in it and then warp to that belt in 25 seconds. Possible? yes but not very likely.
    Most likely here is that they jump into the system and then just selected a belt and got lucky enough to find you sitting there.
    In nul you should have GTFO the moment the neut/red showed up in local.

    elitatwo wrote:
    suicide wrote:
    It always has struck me as strange that a ship can hit system, scan and land on your mining ship after like 25s. Probes are too powerful when it comes to scanning down ships....


    Mobile scan inhibitor unit anyone??

    My thoughts precisely.
    No game changes needed simply pay attention to your surroundings and use the tools already in the game.

    Lienzo
    While your story about WH space is interesting it has no bearing on this since the OP specifically tied this to 0.0.
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #20 - 2015-02-23 08:36:19 UTC
    Donnachadh wrote:
    -1

    Even with perfect scan skills, the best scan equipment in the game AND a set of plus 10 implants it would be very hard to launch probes, pull a scan look over the results and select the belt with a potential ship in it and then warp to that belt in 25 seconds. Possible? yes but not very likely.


    Attacking miners does not require probes at all.

    One simply warps to the asteroid belt or Ore Anomaly.


    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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