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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Defender Missiles

Author
Roman Lynch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-02-20 18:16:58 UTC
So after thinking about it for a while. I was wondering, why do defender missiles only attack other missiles to mitigate the damage?

Can Defender missiles be coded to attack bombs as well?

Right now the current meta is to "fire wall" bombs and missiles by using smart bombs to kill them as they come in. I always found this interesting and I think it is a good use of the smart bombs, but it seems to me that defender missiles SHOULD be the way to counter incoming missiles and bombs.

The missiles could be used the same way they are used now, having a full rack would only have all the missiles attack one bomb or missile, so that would be a waste of ship. and it would make use of those rail ships that only have one missile launcher slot actually have a use now. The missiles would of course attack a random bomb/missile on it's way in, so there may still be a chance for large fleets to be hit with bombs that were not targeted.

Or maybe the defender missiles would not destroy the bombs, only make them detonate sooner? causing more risk to the bombers as the bombs explosion radius could now land damage on the bombers themselves.

Make the flight time of the Defender missiles or range at a base of 50km, with a 5% bonus per level to speed and range. Have the speed of this missles base 1.2x's the speed of a bomb, with at level 5, 2x's the speed of the bomb. this way a low skill would attack the bombs when they were about 15 km away from the point of impact, and at level 5 they would be about 20km from the POI when they were hit. as a large fleet would have some members closer to the bombers and some farther away, the bombs could and would detonate at different ranges.


This should really only be applied to Battleship hulls, as they are most affected by bombing runs


Pros- Defender missiles have a use in PvP now Shocked
-------- There is a more suitable counter to bombing runs that does not remove ALL risk
-------- There are now uses for missile launcher hard-points on ships designed to use lasers/rails/turrets
-------- More ship set-up options for fleets. FCs could drop the launcher for more DPS, or have it on incase of a bombing run

Cons- Bombers are more at risk of a premature explosion
--------- Skill training for defender missiles feels... wrong
--------- There are no T2 varients or launchers designed to only fire defender missiles (this could be changed later though i suppose)
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2015-02-20 18:42:55 UTC
I wonder why nobody though of this before....
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2015-02-20 18:50:04 UTC
How about you learn to use the search tool before posting?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2015-02-20 19:14:07 UTC
Bring half a dozen typhoons or ravens with these fitted, and your fleet is now immune to bombs?
Kabark
Schilden
#5 - 2015-02-20 20:19:20 UTC
Now this is a good idea. I think defender missiles are one the the least used items in the game. A while ago you used to be able to load any launcher with defender missiles and that sort of worked when using rocket launchers for them. Now your stuck using either a light or heavy launcher and it seems like the only missles they can destroy are ones smaller than them unless you spam multiple of them. I ran an experiment a few months ago on SISI with a drake loaded up with 7 rapid lights and defenders. I had a Hamgu attack me and only stopped about 10% of incoming missles. Something is wrong with that.
Discomanco
We pooped on your lawn
#6 - 2015-02-20 21:31:59 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Bring half a dozen typhoons or ravens with these fitted, and your fleet is now immune to bombs?

At the cost of a dozen pilots/ships that could be doing DPS/Logi instead? Meh, I don't see too much of a problem. could as well have been firewalling
Roman Lynch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-02-21 08:12:53 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Bring half a dozen typhoons or ravens with these fitted, and your fleet is now immune to bombs?



NO. Thw way they work now, and the way the should continue to work is they all attack the same target (missile)

So if you have a BS hull, and every missile launcher hard point is loaded with defender missiles, they all fire at the same missile regardless of how many are coming at you. You would have to have 200 ships, each with one loaded with defenders. As the calculations go as to what bombs get hit and what bombs are left alive would be random or chance based, no fleet would be able to kill ALL the bombs in time. and AS I said, have them not destroy the bombs, but have them make the bombs detonate sooner when impacted, still making them have an AOE damage, it is just now in a different spot.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2015-02-21 08:24:41 UTC
Roman Lynch wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Bring half a dozen typhoons or ravens with these fitted, and your fleet is now immune to bombs?



NO. Thw way they work now, and the way the should continue to work is they all attack the same target (missile)

So if you have a BS hull, and every missile launcher hard point is loaded with defender missiles, they all fire at the same missile regardless of how many are coming at you. You would have to have 200 ships, each with one loaded with defenders. As the calculations go as to what bombs get hit and what bombs are left alive would be random or chance based, no fleet would be able to kill ALL the bombs in time. and AS I said, have them not destroy the bombs, but have them make the bombs detonate sooner when impacted, still making them have an AOE damage, it is just now in a different spot.



How do you figure no fleet would kill all the bombs? Would you really need more than 36 missiles to kill a single bomb? (That is how many a typhoon with rapid heavy launchers can put out in the time it takes a bomb to come in)

Put out enough missiles, and yes, you will kill all the bombs, unless you're facing a truly heroic number of bombers.

Some of the bombs going off short of their target will be enough to save ships anyway.


And Discomanco, Typhoons have enough of a dronebay to contribute to the regular DPS too.
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#9 - 2015-02-21 09:38:05 UTC
YAY for yet another version of the same idea...
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#10 - 2015-02-21 10:38:11 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Bring half a dozen typhoons or ravens with these fitted, and your fleet is now immune to bombs?

I don't see much of a problem. Make defender launchers take a lot more PG/CPU than they take up now, after all, they'd be a real weapon system after such a change and not a mere utility. With this, you limit the ways how these ships can be fit in terms of tank and therefore make them tanky enough, but not overly impenetrable objects. It takes a bit of DPS to kill them/alpha them, but not hundreds of people. Fleets would also have to prepare the field for a bomb run prior to the run; not just with bubbles to keep people in place, but also by removing ships that can ruin the bomb run.
It would require more unique roles in fleets, more coordination in the fleet and with other parties on the field/in the system, more condensation in terms of ships to bring, more discipline and more observant behavior of fleet members. I can see how big entities have some advantages here as they can field more redundant players who could work as anti-bombers instead of sitting in a useless Rifter or yet another ceptor, but that's nothing that couldn't be overcome.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#11 - 2015-02-21 17:34:15 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
I wonder why nobody though of this before....



Plenty of people ha...... oooh i see what you did there






but yes i do like the idea of swapping them to hit bombs as well and it can give a role to non-dictor desis in fleet fights as anti bomb platforms if done right


or just give them an AOE big enough to hit more than one missile at a time but lower their damage so that it is actually possible to hit more than 1-2 missiles with your defenders as is they all just home in on the closest one
Roman Lynch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2015-02-22 01:13:24 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Roman Lynch wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Bring half a dozen typhoons or ravens with these fitted, and your fleet is now immune to bombs?



NO. Thw way they work now, and the way the should continue to work is they all attack the same target (missile)

So if you have a BS hull, and every missile launcher hard point is loaded with defender missiles, they all fire at the same missile regardless of how many are coming at you. You would have to have 200 ships, each with one loaded with defenders. As the calculations go as to what bombs get hit and what bombs are left alive would be random or chance based, no fleet would be able to kill ALL the bombs in time. and AS I said, have them not destroy the bombs, but have them make the bombs detonate sooner when impacted, still making them have an AOE damage, it is just now in a different spot.



How do you figure no fleet would kill all the bombs? Would you really need more than 36 missiles to kill a single bomb? (That is how many a typhoon with rapid heavy launchers can put out in the time it takes a bomb to come in)

Put out enough missiles, and yes, you will kill all the bombs, unless you're facing a truly heroic number of bombers.

Some of the bombs going off short of their target will be enough to save ships anyway.


And Discomanco, Typhoons have enough of a dronebay to contribute to the regular DPS too.



you assume that having a typhoon with all the highs loaded with defenders will kill all the bombs. Read the description for defender missiles. Every ship can only attack one missile/bomb. so having more than one is a waste.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2015-02-22 08:08:06 UTC
Roman Lynch wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Roman Lynch wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Bring half a dozen typhoons or ravens with these fitted, and your fleet is now immune to bombs?



NO. Thw way they work now, and the way the should continue to work is they all attack the same target (missile)

So if you have a BS hull, and every missile launcher hard point is loaded with defender missiles, they all fire at the same missile regardless of how many are coming at you. You would have to have 200 ships, each with one loaded with defenders. As the calculations go as to what bombs get hit and what bombs are left alive would be random or chance based, no fleet would be able to kill ALL the bombs in time. and AS I said, have them not destroy the bombs, but have them make the bombs detonate sooner when impacted, still making them have an AOE damage, it is just now in a different spot.



How do you figure no fleet would kill all the bombs? Would you really need more than 36 missiles to kill a single bomb? (That is how many a typhoon with rapid heavy launchers can put out in the time it takes a bomb to come in)

Put out enough missiles, and yes, you will kill all the bombs, unless you're facing a truly heroic number of bombers.

Some of the bombs going off short of their target will be enough to save ships anyway.


And Discomanco, Typhoons have enough of a dronebay to contribute to the regular DPS too.



you assume that having a typhoon with all the highs loaded with defenders will kill all the bombs. Read the description for defender missiles. Every ship can only attack one missile/bomb. so having more than one is a waste.



Loading all the highs with them is to ensure the bombs die. If each ship can only attack one, you might as well hit that one with everything you can just to make sure.

That, or, you put defenders on every recon, dictor, frigate or other support ship you can just to really spam the things.

Put out enough missiles, and you will kill all the bombs.
Kabark
Schilden
#14 - 2015-02-22 08:25:39 UTC
And as soon as I see a fleet that is completely decked out with nothing but defender missles, I'll drop a T1 cruiser fleet on them and just curb stomp them. Serious what FC in their right mind would fit a fleet's support ships with nothing but defenders? That is a near worthless argument. Need logi? Nope everyone bring defenders! We may get blapped by every other roam in space but we ain't getting bombed! Sounds silly to me. Like I said before, defenders need a solid fix and buffing them just isn't enough.
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#15 - 2015-02-22 15:21:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Dangeresque Too
Defenders need to be fixed to the point where it is worthwhile to fit them into that random launcher slot on your blaster hyper (or name your favorite ship that lost a turret hardpoint and gained a launcher slot). Until players are regularly fitting them in the newly created spare launcher slots then they still need more fixing/tweaking.
Kabark
Schilden
#16 - 2015-02-22 16:02:56 UTC
Dangeresque Too wrote:
Defenders need to be fixed to the point where it is worthwhile to fit them into that random launcher slot on your blaster hyper (or name your favorite ship that lost a turret hardpoint and gained a launcher slot). Until players are regularly fitting them in the newly created spare launcher slots then they still need more fixing/tweaking.

In my opinion the best solution is a culmination of previous posts. Have a dedicated defender module or launcher that is either on or off like a passive targeter. When it detects an incoming threat, it automatically launches the defender missles. T1 and T2 modules with T2 having a higher ROF. Defender missles need an increased speed and slightly reduced burn time. Slight damage buff and reduced exp rad and increase exp velocity.