These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1181 - 2015-02-20 15:48:56 UTC
I acknowledge this was a response to Daichi's post, but I could not let this pass.

Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Quote:

So the group prevents the AFK cloaker from doing his job...that is a counter.


AFK cloaker is a term refered to someone already in a system and just camping. If you are refering to a counter to normal cloak movement then yes, however a fleet makes no difference to an AFK Cloaker. Like I already said.

The counter to the cloaked player's safety is a pointless distraction.
I believe you'll find a balance exists already, as the cloaked player feels the PvE player's ships are too easily kept from risk, too.
Attempting to adjudicate absolute fairness is something that can be set aside until more pressing issues are handled.

The problem exists with AFK Cloaking, (in the minds of those opposing it), because they believe a direct threat exists.

If you counter that potential threat, you cancel it, and it can be disregarded beyond that.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1182 - 2015-02-20 15:56:10 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Haywoud wrote:

AFK cloaker is a term refered to someone already in a system and just camping. If you are refering to a counter to normal cloak movement then yes, however a fleet makes no difference to an AFK Cloaker. Like I already said.


Nikk wrote:

How is it a lie?

Think of having your friends present like an umbrella.
An umbrella counters the effects of rain, WHEN YOU USE IT.
Should you decide the umbrella is too much hassle, and put it away while the rain persists, you get wet.


Your analogy is just wrong. If rain is the cloaker then your analogy would assume that he is going to strike regardless of if there is an umbrella or not. However a more accurate dipiction of what you are saying is....

Carry an umbrella with you, even when its sunny, cause you might get caught in a cloud burst.

Rather impractical. And baiting someout out using local? Cant say I have ever seen that work. EVER. How obvious is it if you start talking trash in local.

Like I said. The camper will look, see its not worth his time and go back to being AFK.

Your analogy makes no sense to me.

The sun is shining = no hostile names in local.

It is raining = a hostile name exists in local.

The camper not acting, regardless of whether they were paying attention and could have responded... = Staying dry.

The only time you know when you are going to be in a fight, is when you fire the first shot. That applies everywhere in EVE, not just sov null.
Knowing the guy you are thinking about shooting at, can blow you to pieces before you can pop them, that's the deterrent.

Uncertainty is manageable, just look too dangerous for someone else to consider shooting at.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1183 - 2015-02-20 16:07:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Haywoud Jablomi
Are you responding to me or Daichi?

EDIT. In your first response.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1184 - 2015-02-20 16:26:48 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Are you responding to me or Daichi?

EDIT. In your first response.

It was directed to you, regarding the relative priority about deciding cloaks in general being safe, compared to the specific gameplay issues surrounding so-called AFK Cloaking in sov null.

I feel the larger topic, overall cloaking being safe or not, exceeds the warrant CCP's ISD department intended for this thread.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1185 - 2015-02-20 16:42:06 UTC
Nikk. You do understand that if a fleet is present that no cloak will take any action.

The analogy works just fine. It only makes no sense cause you dont want it to. It doesnt support your argument.

But to explain.

Sun shine = Normal operations, with or without nuet in local
Rain = Any nuet in system actually taking action.
Umbrella= Defense force.

Anyone that lives in null would understand that its always sunny in null less someone rains on you, and then you need an umbrella to defend yourself. However that rain is smarter than you think and it only strikes when least expected, often once you have set your umbrella aside. You know this. I know this. Why are you dilberately being ignorant on the issue?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1186 - 2015-02-20 16:53:06 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Are you responding to me or Daichi?

EDIT. In your first response.

It was directed to you, regarding the relative priority about deciding cloaks in general being safe, compared to the specific gameplay issues surrounding so-called AFK Cloaking in sov null.

I feel the larger topic, overall cloaking being safe or not, exceeds the warrant CCP's ISD department intended for this thread.


Thats what I thought. Here let me underline the important parts

AFK cloaker is a term refered to someone already in a system and just camping. If you are refering to a counter to normal cloak movement then yes, however a fleet makes no difference to an AFK Cloaker. Like I already said.

AFK cloaking has nothing to do with travelling via a gate. That fleet that Daichi suggested was his "counter" to AFK camping. I was pointing out it was not a counter at all to an AFK camper but a count to cloak in general. Then pointing out that the fleet idea makes no difference to a camper. Which I have already said in several posts.

More and more it seems that you truly have no understanding of what actually happens in null. I was giving you respect in that regard but you have shown lack of understanding of null or even how an AFK camper operates.

Kind of agreeing with Terraniel. Maybe you should stop.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1187 - 2015-02-20 16:55:56 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Nikk. You do understand that if a fleet is present that no cloak will take any action.

The analogy works just fine. It only makes no sense cause you dont want it to. It doesnt support your argument.

But to explain.

Sun shine = Normal operations, with or without nuet in local
Rain = Any nuet in system actually taking action.
Umbrella= Defense force.

Anyone that lives in null would understand that its always sunny in null less someone rains on you, and then you need an umbrella to defend yourself. However that rain is smarter than you think and it only strikes when least expected, often once you have set your umbrella aside. You know this. I know this. Why are you dilberately being ignorant on the issue?


Noone cares if the neut is in the system, unless they take hostile action.
Uncertainty results from not knowing if that neut is actually active, since it is presumed they will take action if so.

Yet, in the absence of direct evidence, the assumption is repeatedly made that a neut in system will rain down destruction.

So, to fix your analogy, add this line:

Looks like it will rain = Neut in system
If it looks like it will rain, best keep an umbrella handy.

If you cannot match the hostile's tactics, they win.
If you are giving the hostile credit for maintaining vigilance or a group of friends ready to cyno in, then you are giving them credit for that effort.
BUT: Every time you claim they are AFK, you are actually saying you think they might be bluffing.

So, which is it? Are they making this greater effort, and truly justifying players staying docked up?
(You can't make a valid complaint if you truly believe a dozen players are actively playing like that)
OR
Are they quietly letting you assume the worst case scenario, while they have nothing up their sleeve to throw at you?
(You can't blame them for your own wild imagination, they can't hurt you or they aren't even there to react in the first place)

Considering neither side has certainty regarding the other, you only need to bluff like they are.

Either way, there is no issue.
An encounter will either take place, or not, but the game will keep running.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1188 - 2015-02-20 17:09:36 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
....AFK cloaking has nothing to do with travelling via a gate. That fleet that Daichi suggested was his "counter" to AFK camping. I was pointing out it was not a counter at all to an AFK camper but a count to cloak in general. Then pointing out that the fleet idea makes no difference to a camper. Which I have already said in several posts.

More and more it seems that you truly have no understanding of what actually happens in null. I was giving you respect in that regard but you have shown lack of understanding of null or even how an AFK camper operates.

Kind of agreeing with Terraniel. Maybe you should stop.


You are starting to sound like you couldn't care less about gameplay, but rather have an odd philosophical objection to cloaking itself.

Ignore the camper. He is just another player, who may or may not be paying attention.
He is not an issue, and you need to get over his presence.

Counter the threat, if you believe it to be genuine.

If the camper is cloaked, who cares?
The game has no mechanic for them shooting you while they are cloaked.
If he drops cloak on grid with you, get ready to fight him.

If the cloaked camper is AFK, who cares?
No matter how many people claim that it is foolish to assume safety, it does not change the FACT that you are assuming overwhelming risk by avoiding any exposure.

Maybe the real answer is to stop assuming either way, and expect the fight to happen.
Since you made it quite clear that you may find yourself waiting a long time, have something to do while you wait.
I suggest mining or ratting. You can mine or rat, AND still be prepared to fight.
Those denying this detail, are the same ones expecting 200 ships to jump on their exhumer. Ridiculous does not begin to describe such expectations, as they fall into the category of delusional.

There is no hidden wisdom in avoiding risk, because in this context it effectively means you avoid playing a game.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1189 - 2015-02-20 17:33:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:


Not sure how this is relates to AFK Cloaking




Cause the reward of ratting in null needs the risk provided by players to balance it. The only way to provide that risk at the moment is to afk cloak.

Haywoud Jablomi wrote:

Quote:
So the group prevents the AFK cloaker from doing his job...that is a counter.



AFK cloaker is a term refered to someone already in a system and just camping. If you are refering to a counter to normal cloak movement then yes, however a fleet makes no difference to an AFK Cloaker. Like I already said.


A fleet makes no difference to a cloaker being in system. this is true.

But as people are so eager to point out, the problem of an afk cloaker is not that he is just in system, its what he does when he uncloaks and comes after you (cyno or bomber etc) that they dont like. As terrenial put it, you must assume the worst possible scenario or likely suffer losses. This is most definitely counterable, or at least able to be mitigated by group play.

So working in groups empowers you to rat whilst an afk cloaker is in system and be much less vulnerable while you do it.

Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Nikk. You do understand that if a fleet is present that no cloak will take any action.


Thus the threat is neutralised and they can all rat unmolested.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Bobsled Nutcase Motsu
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1190 - 2015-02-20 17:49:20 UTC
Here ya go

Bob: Hey, is this Concord? I wanna report some pretty awful harassment.

Concord: Have no fear, good citizen, for so long as you are within the boundaries of our protected space, we shall show up in the event of an attack.

Bob: That's great, I am out here in null, and this cloaked fella is just making us all crazy.

Concord: Wait, did you say null? We don't have enforcement offices in that area of space.

Bob: You don't? Oh, well...

Concord: Well, while we are still connected, would you care to donate to the Concord Benevolent Association?

Bob: I, uh, gave already in high sec....
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1191 - 2015-02-20 18:13:43 UTC
Quote:

Thus the threat is neutralised and they can all rat unmolested


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This statement above is the fallacy of the entire crowd against changing cloak.

You can NEVER neutralize the threat. All you can do is defend against it.

All the fluff about risk, reward, danger, sov holding, POS's, stations, local, cynos. Whatever. None of that is able to do what this statement claims. You can not counter an AFK. You can only defend and hope for the best. This is the exact reason why I am on the forums.

The current game mechanic does not allow any form of actual counter to the cloak camper. I am suggesting that change.

So here, all the way on page 60, I again restate my original argument.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1192 - 2015-02-20 18:19:07 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
You can NEVER neutralize the threat. All you can do is defend against it.

All the fluff about risk, reward, danger, sov holding, POS's, stations, local, cynos. Whatever. None of that is able to do what this statement claims. You can not counter an AFK. You can only defend and hope for the best. This is the exact reason why I am on the forums.

The current game mechanic does not allow any form of actual counter to the cloak camper. I am suggesting that change.

So here, all the way on page 60, I again restate my original argument.

Perhaps you have been misunderstood.

Please give us a run down of the benefits, from neutralizing the cloaked camper.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1193 - 2015-02-20 18:22:46 UTC
You really are ignorant. Are you seriously asking me to restate everything I have said in this thread?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1194 - 2015-02-20 18:47:31 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
You really are ignorant. Are you seriously asking me to restate everything I have said in this thread?


There is no value in neutralizing the threat by removal, or self ejection due to limits being reached.

It diminishes the game, when you remove the other team from play.
And when it comes to PvE in sov null, the only opposing team effectively are the cloaked players.

The point of playing, is to be ready to face the opponent.
Since uncertainty and bluffing are integral parts of this, the opponent NOT dropping cloak to show up is actually a victory.

It means you either were correct about them bluffing, be it AFK or lacking any real threat ability....
OR
You out-bluffed THEM, and they are now the ones hiding behind a cloak, having assumed you were way too dangerous to confront.

It's not a victory when no hostile can stay in the system, it means the interesting part of the game is over, and you get to go back to dull chores like mowing the asteroid lawns, or feeding the NPC rats their meals of nutritious cruise missiles.

I know a depressingly large number of players think PvE is a necessary ISK-grinding evil, so they can afford to play the real game of shooting opponents.

I believe we can do better than subscribe to such limiting views.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1195 - 2015-02-20 19:05:39 UTC
If you believe what you just wrote, then you obviously dont live in null. You are wrong. That's all there is to it.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1196 - 2015-02-20 19:49:35 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
If you believe what you just wrote, then you obviously dont live in null. You are wrong. That's all there is to it.

Oh, my experience in null is quite real, but I would not be surprised to learn I played very differently than you.

But then, a sandbox is about embracing all playing styles.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1197 - 2015-02-20 20:02:46 UTC
You may have experienced it but its clear you arent living there.

https://zkillboard.com/character/1485199781/
This is a player named CtrlFreak. He gets all the kills he wants. He doesnt need to camp. If you think that camping is the only way to get kills, youre doing it wrong.

And yes. We do play different. I have always been an industrial player. I like sandbox games for the building aspect. That doesnt mean I dont PVP but I do it in response to threats. I dont roam all that much. And yes I live in null. I have given all my alts. Pretty easy to see where I am.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1198 - 2015-02-20 20:23:51 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
You may have experienced it but its clear you arent living there.

https://zkillboard.com/character/1485199781/
This is a player named CtrlFreak. He gets all the kills he wants. He doesnt need to camp. If you think that camping is the only way to get kills, youre doing it wrong.

And yes. We do play different. I have always been an industrial player. I like sandbox games for the building aspect. That doesnt mean I dont PVP but I do it in response to threats. I dont roam all that much. And yes I live in null. I have given all my alts. Pretty easy to see where I am.

Anecdotal evidence?
Is this some attempt at humor, or do you seriously suggest this reflects genuine expectations for play?

Of COURSE you can find kills, probably quite a bit of them too.
We have thousands of people playing at any given time, 35,615 online right now, if we are to trust the launcher's figure.

Toasting players who don't know enough to either prepare better, or get safe, is not impressive.
Some were noobs, others simply made errors despite knowing better.
It just means you ran into people who made mistakes.

Learning from mistakes, means they either retreat back to high sec, or learn to play more carefully.
Sadly for many, learning to play more carefully can mean hiding until the bad guy leaves.
(That doesn't imply adapting so much as being traumatized, and hiding from their problem rather than facing it)

Team play is great, but when the excel sheets start coming out, and people start being told they need to play a certain way, and conform to expectations.... it can start being too tedious to actually be fun.
I have known really great players, who were tied to trading all but specific play styles in order to participate.

We should do better.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#1199 - 2015-02-20 20:48:10 UTC
Quote:

Anecdotal evidence?
Is this some attempt at humor, or do you seriously suggest this reflects genuine expectations for play?


I guess I shouldnt be shocked that you would ignore direct evidence. He is one of many people that get kills and dont need to camp. Your idea that camping is a nessicary to balance out things is just wrong.

There is enough evidence in this thread to prove that

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1200 - 2015-02-20 21:33:15 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Quote:

Anecdotal evidence?
Is this some attempt at humor, or do you seriously suggest this reflects genuine expectations for play?


I guess I shouldnt be shocked that you would ignore direct evidence. He is one of many people that get kills and dont need to camp. Your idea that camping is a nessicary to balance out things is just wrong.

There is enough evidence in this thread to prove that

Evidence that some people win the lottery, does not mean that playing lotto should be considered a practical direction for financial security.

The fact that you can quote a player who gets kills, which we cannot even determine the circumstances for, is meaningless.
(Are they actually all PvE kills, partially, etc.)

Let's consider your evidence.
CtrlFreak has a current listing of 6,506 ships destroyed. Quite impressive, really.
Out of those, 191 were exhumers, and 168 were mining barges.
That means 359 miners.
Oh, and he got two prospects. They must be harder to catch.
(Makes it 361)

5.5% of his kills were in mining ships.
However, this goes back all the way to August of 2013, so these ships were killed over a period of roughly 18 months.

Math tells us that means he got less than one a day, on average.

As to which ships had been ratting, we can only guess. Likely a similar number, given the odds.

Your evidence suggests that PvE kills amounted to roughly 10% of this player's activity. Since his kills started back in April of 2010, it took him over three years to catch his first mining ship.
Presumably he was still learning, skilling up, etc.

Considering the averages, I think you just demonstrated that PvE ships are the hardest thing to catch in null, if we use simply the evidence you provided.
This fellow statistically had a 90% better chance of catching something else, which very likely included ships trying to get into a fight.

I guess the evidence can show us things, once you drill it down.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...