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Eve Mentat, is it illegal?

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Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#1 - 2014-12-24 15:00:45 UTC
Hey there! I've been trying my hand again at some station trading, reading up on tactics and tools to help you out. Just thought I'd check that using the program Mentat is ok? There are some old threads kicking around out there on the net that are pretty ambiguous on the subject. Does anyone else use this program, or know the legality surrounding it?

Also, are there any others that are particulary useful?

Many thanks in advance! Cool

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#2 - 2014-12-24 18:27:08 UTC
If it does anything at all automatically perhaps aside from putting skills in place or gives you any sort of unfair advantage then yes it's against the EULA.

Anyway as a trader if there's a grey area it's a safer bet to stay out of it as the day CCP bans a traders account is the day big tears flow endlessly.
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#3 - 2014-12-25 00:06:15 UTC
Yes. It relies on cache scraping for some of its data and that is against the EULA.

Fortunately, its an officially sanctioned EULA violation, so its illegal but you won't get punished.
Aurilen Isu
Extramordinary
#4 - 2014-12-25 06:57:36 UTC
Tear Jar wrote:
Yes. It relies on cache scraping for some of its data and that is against the EULA.

Fortunately, its an officially sanctioned EULA violation, so its illegal but you won't get punished.


Source?
Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
#5 - 2014-12-25 17:54:54 UTC
Aurilen Isu wrote:
Tear Jar wrote:
Yes. It relies on cache scraping for some of its data and that is against the EULA.

Fortunately, its an officially sanctioned EULA violation, so its illegal but you won't get punished.


Source?


Years ago a dev posting in the Tech Lab forum.

That said: with the currently under-development-and-deployed-as-it-comes CREST API, CCP wants to make cache scraping obsolete (and therefore will start enforcing that EULA part)

EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager.
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#6 - 2014-12-25 19:55:00 UTC
Hence the ambiguous part of my research. Shocked

I've stopped using it, just in case. Going through all the market orders is time consuming, but better than getting banned!

Thanks for your input gentlemen.

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#7 - 2014-12-25 20:58:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Tear Jar
Aurilen Isu wrote:
Tear Jar wrote:
Yes. It relies on cache scraping for some of its data and that is against the EULA.

Fortunately, its an officially sanctioned EULA violation, so its illegal but you won't get punished.


Source?


Google around about cache scraping and you can find it. Basically, it went like this:

CCP: Hey everyone, just a reminder that cache scraping is against the EULA and always has been.

Eve Community: Wait, but all of these super popular websites and apps that are advertised on the official Eve forums rely on cache scraping to function.

CCP: Its okay, we won't ban you for cache scraping unless we don't like your application.

Basically, when CCP finds out their EULA is too strict in certain areas, they won't change it. Instead they will post a statement elsewhere unofficially sanctioning the EULA violation. Funny enough, Teamspeak is in a similar situation and nobody questions it.
HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#8 - 2014-12-26 02:11:34 UTC
Tear Jar wrote:
Aurilen Isu wrote:
Tear Jar wrote:
Yes. It relies on cache scraping for some of its data and that is against the EULA.

Fortunately, its an officially sanctioned EULA violation, so its illegal but you won't get punished.


Source?


Google around about cache scraping and you can find it. Basically, it went like this:

CCP: Hey everyone, just a reminder that cache scraping is against the EULA and always has been.

Eve Community: Wait, but all of these super popular websites and apps that are advertised on the official Eve forums rely on cache scraping to function.

CCP: Its okay, we won't ban you for cache scraping unless we don't like your application.

Basically, when CCP finds out their EULA is too strict in certain areas, they won't change it. Instead they will post a statement elsewhere unofficially sanctioning the EULA violation. Funny enough, Teamspeak is in a similar situation and nobody questions it.


Not really. The game already has audio functionality built in.
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#9 - 2014-12-26 04:51:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tear Jar
HeXxploiT wrote:
Tear Jar wrote:
Aurilen Isu wrote:
Tear Jar wrote:
Yes. It relies on cache scraping for some of its data and that is against the EULA.

Fortunately, its an officially sanctioned EULA violation, so its illegal but you won't get punished.


Source?


Google around about cache scraping and you can find it. Basically, it went like this:

CCP: Hey everyone, just a reminder that cache scraping is against the EULA and always has been.

Eve Community: Wait, but all of these super popular websites and apps that are advertised on the official Eve forums rely on cache scraping to function.

CCP: Its okay, we won't ban you for cache scraping unless we don't like your application.

Basically, when CCP finds out their EULA is too strict in certain areas, they won't change it. Instead they will post a statement elsewhere unofficially sanctioning the EULA violation. Funny enough, Teamspeak is in a similar situation and nobody questions it.


Not really. The game already has audio functionality built in.


Eve Voice is universally considered inferior to Teamspeak or Mumble. It has a number of issues and a group that relied on it would run incursions more slowly and put their ships at more risk than if they used Teamspeak instead(due to the lower reliability and higher lag of Eve Voice). If a group using Teamspeak contests an incursion site against a group using ingame comms(which go down frequently), how is that fair? Or if ingame comms are down(which happens), how would it be fair that one group has audio communication while the other doesn't?

However banning players for using Teamspeak would be a terrible decision, so they won't enforce that clause of the EULA unless they feel like it.
Hulk Miner
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-12-26 17:53:31 UTC
Tear Jar wrote:
Yes. It relies on cache scraping for some of its data and that is against the EULA.

Fortunately, its an officially sanctioned EULA violation, so its illegal but you won't get punished.



As I want to shift my wealth into trading I have been looking up out of game tolls to help me keep track and provided shiny stats and percentages for my eyes.

I have received a response back from a very helpful GM with my question regarding the legality of using EVE Mentat as I did not want a ban hammer, it seems they are getting more to grips with 3rd party programs floating around the Eve community.

If I was going to sum up the lengthy response on scraping data it would go as so;

"We are therefore unfortunately unable to endorse in any official (or unofficial) manner any third party program created by players, for the purpose of enhancing their game experience."

Guess I need to get fresh with my Ninja spreadsheet skills and leave this program behind.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#11 - 2014-12-26 19:08:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Aurilen Isu wrote:
Tear Jar wrote:
Yes. It relies on cache scraping for some of its data and that is against the EULA.

Fortunately, its an officially sanctioned EULA violation, so its illegal but you won't get punished.

Source?

Original:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2899357#post2899357

CCP Stillman wrote:
Our EULA hasn't changed in this regard. This is the EULA we've always had. We have not outlawed cache scraping as of today. It has always been against our EULA. It's at our discretion as to enforcing it.

Team Security focuses on what we can do to stop macroing and RMT. That is where we will spend our time. So take that for what you want.

Updated:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2900665#post2900665

CCP Peligro wrote:
In the meantime, CCP confirms that we will only impose penalties on cache scraping if used in connection with other illegal activities in the game (i.e., botting). We will not take action against cache scraping for other uses.


EDIT: Don't miss the blog the comment is related to. CCP Stillman - Client modification, the EULA and you
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#12 - 2014-12-26 20:48:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tear Jar
Hulk Miner wrote:
Tear Jar wrote:
Yes. It relies on cache scraping for some of its data and that is against the EULA.

Fortunately, its an officially sanctioned EULA violation, so its illegal but you won't get punished.



As I want to shift my wealth into trading I have been looking up out of game tolls to help me keep track and provided shiny stats and percentages for my eyes.

I have received a response back from a very helpful GM with my question regarding the legality of using EVE Mentat as I did not want a ban hammer, it seems they are getting more to grips with 3rd party programs floating around the Eve community.

If I was going to sum up the lengthy response on scraping data it would go as so;

"We are therefore unfortunately unable to endorse in any official (or unofficial) manner any third party program created by players, for the purpose of enhancing their game experience."

Guess I need to get fresh with my Ninja spreadsheet skills and leave this program behind.




Be warned, spreadsheets are run by 3rd party programs(and spreadsheets facilitate traders in acquiring items and isk at an accelerated rate, which is against the EULA). Using microsoft Excel to track your orders is as much a tolerated EULA violation as Eve Mentat.
Herdo
Radix Financial
#13 - 2014-12-26 21:52:27 UTC
"After consulting with CCP Legal and Team Security, we are not prepared to amend the EULA at this time to address your concerns. However, your comments are good ones, and we will consider incorporating them with the next scheduled update to the EULA (expected this fall, 2013).

In the meantime, CCP confirms that we will only impose penalties on cache scraping if used in connection with other illegal activities in the game (i.e., botting). We will not take action against cache scraping for other uses."

This was CCP Phantom's response to someone asking about EVE-Mentat, so unless you are cache scraping in order to perform other illegal activities, you are fine.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2903715#post2903715
Eufemius Bolehlav
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2015-02-11 11:16:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Eufemius Bolehlav
How can I use Eve Mentat for trades outside of the Eve or botting? I don't understand...
So basicaly: Can I use this program for station trading without banning risk and CCP tolerates it? Need final answer :)
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#15 - 2015-02-11 12:50:31 UTC
It should also be noted:

Market data through CREST is now live.

Cache scraping isn't required any more. It just takes more effort to code.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Panzer Lemon
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2015-02-12 11:34:00 UTC
Final answer: you'll be fine using Eve Mentat.

I used it for a couple months with no problems.

However, I'd recommend Evernus. Evernus uses CREST.
Amely Miles
Second Exile
#17 - 2015-02-13 09:09:19 UTC
Panzer Lemon wrote:
Final answer: you'll be fine using Eve Mentat.

I used it for a couple months with no problems.

However, I'd recommend Evernus. Evernus uses CREST.


ive used both and agree (i prefer the UI of Mentat but evernus is bettter in my opinion)

As I slipped my finger slowly inside her hole, I could immediately feel it getting wetter and wetter.

I took my finger back out and within seconds she was going down on me.

"I really need a new boat," I thought to myself.
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2015-02-13 11:05:13 UTC
Mentat is de-facto obsolete, use Evernus. It supports CREST natively, so no issues there.

It does have a nice feature that lets you update ~30 orders per minute easily - with side effect that you hit slowdown popup dozen of times (server limit is 20). Sadly GMs (including escalation) play dumb wiseasses and refuse to give simple answer to simple question.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl
Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
#19 - 2015-02-19 10:59:08 UTC
check the law about the intellectual property concerning software :
European law
Quote:

Article 6

Decompilation

1. The authorisation of the rightholder shall not be required where reproduction of the code and translation of its form within the meaning of points (a) and (b) of Article 4(1) are indispensable to obtain the information necessary to achieve the interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, provided that the following conditions are met:

(a)


those acts are performed by the licensee or by another person having a right to use a copy of a program, or on their behalf by a person authorised to do so;

(b)


the information necessary to achieve interoperability has not previously been readily available to the persons referred to in point (a); and

(c)


those acts are confined to the parts of the original program which are necessary in order to achieve interoperability.

2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall not permit the information obtained through its application:

(a)


to be used for goals other than to achieve the interoperability of the independently created computer program;

(b)


to be given to others, except when necessary for the interoperability of the independently created computer program; or

(c)


to be used for the development, production or marketing of a computer program substantially similar in its expression, or for any other act which infringes copyright.

3. In accordance with the provisions of the Berne Convention for the protection of Literary and Artistic Works, the provisions of this Article may not be interpreted in such a way as to allow its application to be used in a manner which unreasonably prejudices the rightholder's legitimate interests or conflicts with a normal exploitation of the computer program.


the rights do not authorize the Reverse Engin of a code as interoperability of the system. Only the course of the interfaces is authorized,
But Cache files are not files of interface. Thus used a program based of this are breaking the autorr Right .
CCP enforced eula for country wich have less law regard of intellectual proprety ...
Dirk Decibel
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2015-02-19 23:04:51 UTC
Technically cache scraping is against the EULA, technically, using a copy-paste keybind to help manage your market orders is also against the EULA. I doubt CCP will be enforcing them though, but if you want to be on the safe side: DO NOT USE ANY THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE (including binding anything to your mouse or keyboard, even if it is just a single action instead of something like copy-paste) AND ONLY USE THE TOOLS PROVIDED IN THE EVE CLIENT.

Yes, that means not using EVEmon or EFT too. The EULA is set up to cover the widest possible extent of (ab)use of any means that could give you an advantage. Even if CCP releases a statement that use of tool X is fine one day, under the EULA they have te right to start banning users of tool X the other day based on that same EULA. They will prolly not do that, but because the EULA 's coverage is so wide, they COULD do it without any legal repurcusions.

That's not because CCP is trying to be dicks, that's just because in Legal Country, you HAVE to make sure that you cover an as wide as possible area to ensure no loopholes can be exploited in ways a developer would never have thought of on forehand.

That's why you will seldom get a deffinitive ruling on wether X goes or doesn't. As soon as you say "X goes and is exempt from the EULA" you are drawing a line in the (legal) sand that basically says that "Y" which does pretty much the same thing as "X" but combined with "Z" which has also been made exempt form the EULA 3 years ago is OK too. While if a tool that combined Y and Z might never have been thought of at the time that X and Z were 'authorized' for 'legal' use.

The thing is, we humans are very creative when it comes to pushing and probing rules. If we weren't and rules were always clear and only interpretable in one absolute way, we wouldn't need judges and lawyers (which some would argue would make the world a better place, I'm not one of them btw).
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