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Paladin - Pulse or Beams for LvL 4?

Author
Justin Zaine
#41 - 2015-02-18 07:13:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Zaine
Quote:
At the end of the day, neither are better than the other


Seriously though, pulse are better.

Nah, just kidding. You're right It's all personal preference. I swear by pulse as my arguments have shown but it really just depends on your play style. If you're flying a Paladin you're already in one of the 4 best mission running ships in the game so it's hard to go wrong regardless of what you do.

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#42 - 2015-02-18 08:02:49 UTC
The difference between pulses and beams becomes apparent when you have to shoot targets that aren't weak to EM while they're at range like Guristas. Scorch is mostly EM and will suck hard vs those, beams with MF still won't be amazing but at least it'll be better than Scorch.
Ruvin
Siberian Squads
#43 - 2015-02-18 13:39:34 UTC
ill reply to the post with numbers :

1 range , i didnt went for tachyons cos i wanted to shoot targets at 160km . I went for them because i kill stuff in 45,50 - 80 km Range . (and on this distance tachyons win)
I dont salvage , i dont loot , LP per mission are worth way more then salvage .
2 Tracking is bad , but be it beam or pulses i kill stuff way before they get under 20 km (even with Pulse, so its not a issue for me)
3
a. You dont need to snipe , you can brawl everything in l4 in close range , but i find dmg aplication is way better from far , be it a BS or a frigate , an example : you may be muhhamed Ali or Tyson but why you need to punch someone when you can use a pistol ))
b. i dont need them to shoot from 160 , but from 50 to 80 with MF .
c. i dont salvage , i blitz missions for reward and lp . (as for mjd : i mjd out kill and mjd in , if need while im away i can adjust my distance with mwd to be exactly 100km from acceleration gate while killing frigates with full dps aplication)
d. i do the same with tachyons , dont see any difference here , target frigates and one shoot em . while theyre far away .

to put it in another way :
Conflag-pulse >>> Tachyon-MF>>>Scorch-Pulse (dmg wise)
<40 km 45<--->100 45<--->100


So conflag wins dmg wise , but rats usually spawn in a different range group , so usually its tachyons vs Scorch not conflag .
As you personally said you kill stuff , most of it , before it gets close to you . So conflag dps is wasted .

Also about tracking i consider beam tracking at 70km is better then pulse in close range . So considering all variables i found tachyons perform better .

By no means one of those is bad , its just matter of taste i guess .

Opportunities multiply as they are seized.

Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#44 - 2015-02-18 13:43:42 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
The difference between pulses and beams becomes apparent when you have to shoot targets that aren't weak to EM while they're at range like Guristas. Scorch is mostly EM and will suck hard vs those, beams with MF still won't be amazing but at least it'll be better than Scorch.



that and at the end of scorch range (95km) tachs will pull 100 more dps with gamma. or 150 dps more at 75km with mf

pulse only out dmg tachs when they are loaded with mf or conflag at 35km range or shorter.
Justin Zaine
#45 - 2015-02-18 14:35:18 UTC
You guys have a lot of good points regarding beams.


Just curious...What kind of dps are you getting at various beam ranges?

On my setup with 3 Imperial Navy Heat Sinks, I'm getting 1007 dps with gleam

993 dps with Multi with an optimal of 45 (58 with 2 TC's running.)

910 dps with Gamma with an optimal of 56 (73 with TC's)

827 dps with Xray with an optimal of 68 (88 with TC's)

Don't really need to use anything longer range than that but I have Standard in cargo just in case.


Comparing this to pulse dps off the top of my head...

Conflag is about 1200 dps out to 30km

Multi is about 1000 and is good to about 45km.

I think I was getting at least 750 with scorch, and I'd be using that for anything past the 45km mark. Yeah, I go through a lot of scorch crystals but I don't mind because they're much cheaper than INMF. I still find that lots of things get in close really fast, and that's obviously where conflag shines.

If you're not salvaging then I can see why you'd go with beams.

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#46 - 2015-02-18 14:48:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
How the #$%# are you getting 45km optimal from tachs with MF? Any decent fit hits 70km with it.

Same fits (listed above), just tachs vs pulse. 2 Pulse fits, faction MF and Scorch. Yellow is tach..
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#47 - 2015-02-18 14:54:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Rift
I run 3 TC's 4 navy HS no rigs (normally have a tracking rig and either range or more tracking)

I get (first range number is no range scripts 2nd number is all range scripts modify on the fly depending on the npc range)
28-36km gleam with 973dps
57-73km for INMF with 959dps
71-91km for gamma with 879dps


my pulse fit is the same as my beam one numbers without rigs

27-35 conflag 1111 dps
27-35 INMF 996 dps
34-43 IN gamma 913 dps
41-52 IN xray 830 dps
76-97 scorch 794 dps

i find I shoot things at the 40-70km range most of the time and thus use beams


note: No implants at all in those numbers. Bastion on in all of them.


edit: all thouse numbers are just optimal fall off adds some but you are using insta change ammo just change it instead of shooting falloff
Justin Zaine
#48 - 2015-02-18 14:55:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Zaine
Disregard, was looking at wrong stats.

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#49 - 2015-02-18 14:59:57 UTC
Justin Zaine wrote:
That's just optimal. Falloff is 70km and with 2 tracking computers with range scripts running, optimal becomes 58 and falloff becomes 99.


...
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#50 - 2015-02-18 15:08:44 UTC
Justin Zaine wrote:
That's just optimal. Falloff is 70km and with 2 tracking computers with range scripts running, optimal becomes 58 and falloff becomes 99.



do you have no support skills at all? 35km optimal on tachs in the base range with no bonuses skill or ship effecting it.
Justin Zaine
#51 - 2015-02-18 15:14:52 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Justin Zaine wrote:
That's just optimal. Falloff is 70km and with 2 tracking computers with range scripts running, optimal becomes 58 and falloff becomes 99.



do you have no support skills at all? 35km optimal on tachs in the base range with no bonuses skill or ship effecting it.


Lol. I have all relevant gunnery skills to 5 except for large laser specialization, which currently sits at 4.

We are talking about T2 Tachs with Imperial Navy Multifreq loaded, right?

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.

Justin Zaine
#52 - 2015-02-18 15:24:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Zaine
****

Multi optimal with my skills is 56 without TC's. 69km with TC's.

Sorry, don't know what I was looking at earlier.

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.

Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#53 - 2015-02-18 15:25:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Rift
Justin Zaine wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
Justin Zaine wrote:
That's just optimal. Falloff is 70km and with 2 tracking computers with range scripts running, optimal becomes 58 and falloff becomes 99.



do you have no support skills at all? 35km optimal on tachs in the base range with no bonuses skill or ship effecting it.


Lol. I have all relevant gunnery skills to 5 except for large laser specialization, which currently sits at 4.

We are talking about T2 Tachs with Imperial Navy Multifreq loaded, right?




why are you flying without TC's and bastion?

edit: you where looking at without bastion
Justin Zaine
#54 - 2015-02-18 15:26:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Zaine
I'm not, see post above

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.

Justin Zaine
#55 - 2015-02-18 15:48:34 UTC
Guess i'm extra tired this morning or perhaps just ********...

Okay, so just to get this straight...

Paladin
3 faction HS in the lows
2 tracking computers in the mids
4 T2 tachs and a bastion in the highs

All relevant large gunnery skills to 5 except for Large turret specialization which is at 4.

WITH NOTHING RUNNING (No bastion, no TC's): Optimal with INMF is at 45km.

WITH EVERYTHING RUNNING (Bastion, TC's with range scripts): Optimal with INMF is 69km.

So what I said in my first post about range is still true.

Perhaps you were thinking that the optimal of 45km was with everything running.

Sorry for the confusion.




He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#56 - 2015-02-18 16:27:56 UTC
Yes, that would just make too much sense. It couldn't be because you're clueless, made some dumb statements and are now back pedalling.
Justin Zaine
#57 - 2015-02-18 16:32:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Zaine
Gregor Parud wrote:
Yes, that would just make too much sense. It couldn't be because you're clueless, made some dumb statements and are now back pedalling.


Yes I'm back pedalling, as people do to correct mistakes

Your point?

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.

Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2015-02-18 16:44:46 UTC
Grytok wrote:
Thanks so far, I'll try both setups I guess, but I'm not to keen on using a MJD, but rather go only with a MWD.

MJD lets you escape scrams. Used to use a MWD on my Vargur with 800mm autos, but after coming back to EVE I found that 1200mm artty + MJD worked better with bastion since its like driving up hill with the parking brake on (aka bastion roots you, MWD makes you go fast, they don't work well together, but when bastion is off MJD works to get to sniping position for 60km sniping and a simple AB is all you need to get gate to gate).

You are missing out if your not using a MJD. Good escape tool when you screw up triggers and can even get range on scramming frigs by jumping out.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#59 - 2015-02-19 06:37:52 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Grytok wrote:
Thanks so far, I'll try both setups I guess, but I'm not to keen on using a MJD, but rather go only with a MWD.

MJD lets you escape scrams. Used to use a MWD on my Vargur with 800mm autos, but after coming back to EVE I found that 1200mm artty + MJD worked better with bastion since its like driving up hill with the parking brake on (aka bastion roots you, MWD makes you go fast, they don't work well together, but when bastion is off MJD works to get to sniping position for 60km sniping and a simple AB is all you need to get gate to gate).

You are missing out if your not using a MJD. Good escape tool when you screw up triggers and can even get range on scramming frigs by jumping out.


It is nice that the cool-down lines up so well with the Bastion's cycle time. It is especially useful on some Blood Raider's missions, since they do seem to like spawning out at ranges perfect for "Bastion bouncing" (someone said it in chat one day and I thought it sounded kind of catchy, can't really remember who though). I don't use it often, but I do carry one with an MDU.

And, you're right. It is a pretty awesome back-up in-case dps gets hot and **** starts rolling down the hill. A nice final little "F-you" and middle finger for the rare moments when rats actually put a Marauder's tank to the test, no? I almost feel sorry for the poor buggers, at least until I remember that it's what puts food on the table and isk in my pocket, so "NO MERCY!"

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#60 - 2015-02-19 11:33:26 UTC
Pulse will outperform beams; however, pulse require more effort. You won't outperform beams by sitting back, and loading scorch. You really need to plan your aggro, primaries, and route/mobility to help ensure you get the most out of conflagration.

Another thing to consider is that with a pulse fit, you will almost always be in tractor range of the wrecks you create. Tractoring your wrecks during combat it a nice way to add a bit to your isk per hour, but again, requires more effort.

I prefer pulse on my pally, but IMO, it really depends on what your priorities are and how much effort you're wanting to put into it.