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Paladin - Pulse or Beams for LvL 4?

Author
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#21 - 2015-02-16 07:26:57 UTC
if you are looting it you are limited to 48km range of the tractor beams (unless you are waiting for the slow slow MTU) so pulse with conflag will be your golden ticket
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Holdings
#22 - 2015-02-16 08:46:31 UTC
My Lvl 4 Paladin looks like this - 1274.6 DPS with less than perfect skills:

[Paladin, HMS Valiant - PVE]
Large Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II
Large Micro Jump Drive

Mega Pulse Laser II
Mega Pulse Laser II
Mega Pulse Laser II
Mega Pulse Laser II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Bastion Module I

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Large Nanobot Accelerator II


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

Conflagration L x4
Scorch L x4
Imperial Navy Multifrequency L x4
Optimal Range Script x3
Tracking Speed Script x3

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2015-02-16 21:10:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravasta Helugo
John Ratcliffe wrote:

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Large Nanobot Accelerator II



Those tanking Rigs are making me sad.

You should rip them out and replace them with a Rate of Fire Rig and a Warp Speed/Agility/AnythingButTankingOrCap Rig. Watch your mission times become shorter, your Isk/Hour become bigger and, and your invulnerability to level IV rats remain unchanged.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-02-16 21:15:42 UTC
and your ability to get ganked exponentially higher

always overtank your marauders

always.
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#25 - 2015-02-16 22:20:15 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
and your ability to get ganked exponentially higher

always overtank your marauders

always.

t2 suitcase + emperial navy enam (or two) gets silly numbers in bastion , silly i tell ye!
Justin Zaine
#26 - 2015-02-16 23:01:17 UTC
If someone's fleet is committed to ganking you, no amount of nano pumps or nanobot accelerators will save you. They only have 11k armor and 10k structure to burn through assuming you're not buffer fit and they'll do it in seconds, long before you can react, activate your modules and finish a single cycle of reps.

What will save you, if anything, is not flying a loot pinata and fitting a DCU.

If you overtank, do it for the rats or because you wan't to be extra careful with your billion isk ship. Don't use gankers as the excuse for doing so Blink

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#27 - 2015-02-16 23:45:47 UTC
Justin Zaine wrote:
If someone's fleet is committed to ganking you, no amount of nano pumps or nanobot accelerators will save you. They only have 11k armor and 10k structure to burn through assuming you're not buffer fit and they'll do it in seconds, long before you can react, activate your modules and finish a single cycle of reps.

What will save you, if anything, is not flying a loot pinata and fitting a DCU.

If you overtank, do it for the rats or because you wan't to be extra careful with your billion isk ship. Don't use gankers as the excuse for doing so Blink

true, however you dont need to out tank the gankers




just the guy in the next mission pocket Blink
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-02-16 23:56:48 UTC
Justin Zaine wrote:
If someone's fleet is committed to ganking you, no amount of nano pumps or nanobot accelerators will save you. They only have 11k armor and 10k structure to burn through assuming you're not buffer fit and they'll do it in seconds, long before you can react, activate your modules and finish a single cycle of reps.

What will save you, if anything, is not flying a loot pinata and fitting a DCU.

If you overtank, do it for the rats or because you wan't to be extra careful with your billion isk ship. Don't use gankers as the excuse for doing so Blink


making it not worth the gank is the point with overtanking, not whether or not it will stop them.
Justin Zaine
#29 - 2015-02-17 01:21:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Zaine
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
making it not worth the gank is the point with overtanking, not whether or not it will stop them.


I don't disagree. All i'm saying is that if you plan to do this by using mods or rigs that increase your rep speed/amount, you're doing it wrong. You want buffer or high resists to avoid a gank, not large rep cycles. In the case of the Paladin, increasing your resists is the best way to go because even if you can rep 5000 armor in a 10s cycle using repair rigs, the gank is over before you get to make use of those reps.

At least by having 90% + resists you'll be able to take much more punishment than you otherwise could.

Nano pumps or accelerators will not help you much when someone needs less than 10 seconds to destroy your ship.

"OMG he's got huge rep cycles, whatever shall we do." - Said no ganking fleet ever.

Sorry for derailing the thread.

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#30 - 2015-02-17 01:57:54 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
making it not worth the gank is the point with overtanking, not whether or not it will stop them.


I agree, I'm just not sure that armor rep rigs are the right way to do that. I suppose if you see them coming and overload the rep, best case you get 2 cycles in. Ah well, I'll just keep on keeping my value low and EHP high.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#31 - 2015-02-17 09:56:00 UTC
Tachs allow for Gleam which is quite awesome short range. Also, as others stated earlier, Tachs outperform Scorch and the optimal of 70km (with MF) combined with a 1 min MJD makes it pretty much ideal to toy around shooting stuff with very low transversal.

But, as also stated, swap to pulses for specific missions where it just makes sense to do so. I would have Tachs as the default fit though. Here's a fitting idea for it.




[Paladin, New Setup 1]
Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Heat Sink II

100MN Afterburner II
Large Micro Jump Drive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
[empty high slot]
Small Tractor Beam I
Bastion Module I

Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I
Large Energy Burst Aerator II

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#32 - 2015-02-17 11:19:41 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Tachs allow for Gleam which is quite awesome short range. Also, as others stated earlier, Tachs outperform Scorch and the optimal of 70km (with MF) combined with a 1 min MJD makes it pretty much ideal to toy around shooting stuff with very low transversal.

But, as also stated, swap to pulses for specific missions where it just makes sense to do so. I would have Tachs as the default fit though. Here's a fitting idea for it.




[Paladin, New Setup 1]
Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Heat Sink II

100MN Afterburner II
Large Micro Jump Drive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
[empty high slot]
Small Tractor Beam I
Bastion Module I

Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I
Large Energy Burst Aerator II



Fairly close to mine actually, i have two medium neuts in the highs though.

and i couldnt be arsed with tracking computers (i have them in the cargo)
i feel much better with a fednavy web and a longpoint,
though my paladin has been in lowsec for a while now so it makes sense to keep them there
Ruvin
Siberian Squads
#33 - 2015-02-17 11:44:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruvin
Ill probably get flamed but here it goes :

I wanted some standing for clones , decided to go for SOE as arc unlocked lvl 4 for me (also a profit could be made)
I couldn’t decide between nightmare or paladin , decided to go for paladin (both look awesome but paladin has easier time fitting and is more forgivable)
I readed everything I could find about paladin pve fits from last 2 years both on forums/reddit/eve uni/random blogs .

First fits were overtanked (2 adaptive 1 dmg ctrl 1 repper 3 sinks) Went for 2 adaptive 1 reper , 4 sinks . (if the 5 sink would be any good I prob could drop 1 adaptive tho not worth it)
Ok here it starts to get “odd” Medium slots 2 tracker comps (that’s common to every fit almost I saw) usually third slot is random a cap recharger , a cap booster (no clue what for)
Anyway fourth slot goes to mwd or mjd …. I went for mjd , great thing , apart those times when you need to burn to gates or somewhere (loot can be achieved by tractor unit) but still sometimes it gathers everything apart that “transport” you need . So I kept switching them , in the end I went for “BOTH” …. Well it worked ehm great ? I land I jump , I kill stuff (frigs first) , I jump back and use gates . MWD for times when I need to fly to gates . 2 tracking comps and 100km distance is more then enough to shoot any frigate . Cap with everything on apart (mwd/mjd) is enough for 11 or 12 minutes (PERMA repped) So I just left it like that . (just give it a try rlly makes life easier)

Now on weapon part :
I went for pulses as it was more advised , but I used to jump shoot with scorch , and kill everything before it went under 50km , last 1 2 ships I could switch to conflag , but that happened rarely … Very .
I end up using for 90% scorch ammo , conflag was used rarely , and also between 40-50 km range with 2 tracking comps with distance scripts .
Then I thought wtf I kill stuff in 60-100km range . Why im using pulse weapons …. So switched to tachyons , exactly same strategy tho it goes faster , and easier … I hit with navy multi for same range as scorch for greater dmg . (Gleam seems not worth it , Aurora …. it has 160-180 range afaik with TRACKING scripts , need to check aurora range with optimal range , dps sucks 550 I think , but it could shoot stuff from far away :D )
Oh and those are ranges without bastion on !
And that was while doing missions for SOE which had all rats “bad” for me , as paladin is best vs amarr ones .


So that’s my “newb mission runner “ experience .

TLDR mjd+mwd BOTH work great , Tachyons are better imho . No need to brawl vs small ships when you can snipe them for full dmg from distance .



EDIT : Gregor Parud , I agree with him , btw why an AB instead of MWD (I usually use it to get from point A to point B so just wondering why such choice)
Also his fit is almost identical to mine .

Opportunities multiply as they are seized.

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#34 - 2015-02-17 16:55:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Ruvin wrote:
EDIT : Gregor Parud , I agree with him , btw why an AB instead of MWD (I usually use it to get from point A to point B so just wondering why such choice)
Also his fit is almost identical to mine .


Fitting issues, cap issues. This could be solved by removing the heavy nos but It's nice to have when you want to tank and spank shorter range stuff just because it's the better option at that moment. It's a choice, dropping it and fully relying on MJD for range (tank) and then swap to MWD also works.


Switching to gleam and tracking scripts with bastion and a nos on a shorter range target works just fine assuming, again, it's a useful tactic at that moment.
Justin Zaine
#35 - 2015-02-17 21:10:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Zaine
Inspired by this thread, I've revisited the beam Pally for lvl 4 missions.

God it's awful.

Maybe it's just me, but I have yet to come across a situation where I would prefer beams over pulse.

Why?


1. Range. The main advantage that beams have over pulse is their ability to hit out to 160km. When do lvl 4 mission rats spawn anywhere near that far away? I've have yet to see it. Most rats spawn within the 30-70 km range and that's perfect for a pulse fit for a few reasons:

a. Tractor Beam range is 50km

b. With 2 Tracking Computers, Conflag does 1000 dps up to ~40km and scorch does like 750 out to ~90 with the ability to two-shot small stuff at 105 km.


2. Tracking is **** with beams. Anything closer than 20km is difficult to hit even with 2 TC's running with Gleam/INMF. Your DPS might look nice but your application of that dps is baaaad.


3. Downfalls of the traditional Beam fit.

a. If you fit a MJD to your beam pally, my question is why?!?!? On ships like the CNR where you sacrifice tank for gank the MJD is totally cool, but on a ship where you have more than enough tank and dps to run any lvl 4 up close, what practical use is there for a MJD? It slows down your mission time when you jump all over the place and god forbid you ever get a mission where the next gate is ~50km away.

b. So you've got beams and can shoot out to 160km. That's might be cool if you could target that far, but your default targeting range is just over 100km. This means that you need to fit at least one sebo to make use of those long beams, assuming you ever needed to shoot that far, which again, never happens.

c. Sniping = No tractors = No salvaging or looting = ~ 3-10 mil lost per mission (Roughly?) I've never done the math but whenever my hull is full of loot I give it to my hauler alt to run to amarr and sell it off. I'd estimate that this accounts for anywhere between 20-30 mil per 5 missions with the occasional mission dropping something nice (3 pseudoelectron containment fields or a 20 mil implant, for instance.) If you MJD and snipe, you're probably losing out on this income. If you're MJD-ing and sniping and then closing range to go back in and salvage after the fight is over, you're wasting valuable time that could better be spent on another mission. The trick is to salvage/loot while you fight within tractor range, and pulse fits excel at this.

d. This may sound like nitpicking, but the way I deal with those missions that have 5-10 frigs spawn all at once amongst a larger group of rats is to split my guns up into 2 groups of 2. Load the appropriate ammo for the range they're at, turn on the TC with either tracking or optimal scripts respectively, and pop them all in quick succession by activating one gun group (2 guns) per frig. This eliminates any overkill and most of the time I one-shot them. This works up to 105km. With the slower cycle time of beams, it takes longer to do this. Sometimes a few of the frigs close distance and I'm unable to hit them due to the ****** tracking of beams. Not a big deal cause I've got drones, but something I noticed nonetheless.


I'm sure the beam pally has it's uses in belt ratting or site running or something else that I don't really have any experience with, but I fail to see how it outperforms the pulse fit paladin for typical lvl 4 missioning.

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.

Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#36 - 2015-02-17 21:37:16 UTC
Justin Zaine wrote:
Inspired by this thread, I've revisited the beam Pally for lvl 4 missions.

God it's awful.

Maybe it's just me, but I have yet to come across a situation where I would prefer beams over pulse.

Why?


1. Range. The main advantage that beams have over pulse is their ability to hit out to 160km. When do lvl 4 mission rats spawn anywhere near that far away? I've have yet to see it. Most rats spawn within the 30-70 km range and that's perfect for a pulse fit for a few reasons:

a. Tractor Beam range

b. With 2 Tracking Computers, Conflag does 1000 dps up to ~40km and scorch does like 800 out to ~100km.


2. Tracking is **** with beams. Anything closer than 20km is difficult to hit even with 2 TC's running with Gleam/INMF. Your DPS might look nice but your application of that dps is baaaad.


3. Downfalls of the traditional Beam fit.

a. If you fit a MJD to your beam pally, my question is why?!?!? On ships like the CNR where you sacrifice tank for gank the MJD is totally cool, but on a ship where you have more than enough tank and dps to run any lvl 4 up close, what practical use is there for a MJD? It slows down your mission time when you jump all over the place and god forbid you ever get a mission where the next gate is ~50km away.

b. So you've got beams and can shoot out to 160km. That's might be cool if you could target that far, but your default targeting range is just over 100km. This means that you need to fit at least one sebo to make use of those long beams, assuming you ever needed to shoot that far, which again, never happens.

c. Sniping = No tractors = No salvaging or looting = ~ 3-10 mil lost per mission (Roughly?) I've never done the math but whenever my hull is full of loot I give it to my hauler alt to run to amarr and sell it off. I'd estimate that this accounts for anywhere between 20-30 mil per 5 missions with the occasional mission dropping something nice (3 pseudoelectron containment fields or a 20 mil implant, for instance.) If you MJD and snipe, you're probably losing out on this income. If you're MJD-ing and sniping and then closing range to go back in and salvage after the fight is over, you're wasting valuable time. The trick is to salvage/loot while you fight within tractor range, and pulse fits excel at this.

d. This may sound like nitpicking, but the way I deal with those missions that have 5-10 frigs spawn all at once amongst a larger group of rats is to split my guns up into 2 groups of 2. Load the appropriate ammo for the range they're at, turn on the TC with either tracking or optimal scripts respectively, and pop them all in quick succession by activating one gun group (2 guns) per frig. This eliminates any overkill and most of the time I one-shot them. With the slower cycle time of beams, it takes longer to do this. Sometimes a few of the frigs close distance and I'm unable to hit them due to the ****** tracking of beams. Not a big deal cause I've got drones, but something I noticed nonetheless.


I'm sure the beam pally has it's niche in belt ratting or running sites or something else that I don't have any experience with, but I fail to see how it outperforms the pulse fit paladin for typical lvl 4 missioning.



you let things get within 20km is your problem. pulses suffer from lack of dps at the 40km+ range which is where you should kill all mission rats

Justin Zaine
#37 - 2015-02-17 23:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Zaine
Quote:
Pulses suffer from lack of dps at the 40km+ range which is where you should kill all mission rats.


Says who?

Should you not kill rats wherever it's most efficient and practical to kill them? If that's at 30 km with pulses then do it. If it's at 70km with beams then do that. My point is that when most missions these days have rats spawning inside of 80km with the occasional spawn going out to ~ 100, there is nothing that beams can do that pulses can't do just as well, if not better. Pulses can still kill efficiently enough at that range, and are miles ahead of beams when it comes to killing things that are less than 30km away, which you see happen much, much more frequently than you see spawns at 100+ kms.

The time you save by using pulse will more than make up for the extra bit of dps and range that you get out of beams.

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#38 - 2015-02-18 04:12:13 UTC
~50km is where it matters most to me. and from 45km out tachs win. many mission rats spawn in the 40-70km range. Sure there are some more short range missions, and I think I said earlier that it is good to have both short and long range weapons available. Although for short range missions I tend to fly a blaster kronos. easier to switch ships than switch weapons.

imo the most efficient place to kill rats is right where they spawn. yea I miss out on a bunch of loot but I don't care as I'm not stuck around waiting on tractors and have moved on to another mission. Although with marauder tractors, and a MTU I do get a bunch of loot. Although the value of loot is so meh, I'm really not bothered much either way.

I agree completely MJD to snipe is worthless. however in a few missions a MJD does put you in a better spot, plus with a MJD you can get to any point within 100km in 2 jumps. Worlds collide is a decent example. warp in start shooting, MJD, then MJD again back to the gate and by then you usually have cleared the battleships. in the second pocket just get full aggro, jump out 100km, and blap the frigs, then kill everything else and jump back to the gate. I barely see a time difference between that and just MWDing to the gates. Oh and the CNR is worse for MJDing as it totally messes with missile travel time, unless you are semi-afking with auto-targeting missiles.

As for a sebo, I almost always fit one, marauder scan res sucks. Also helps to blap frigs before they can get any transversial.

oh and I almost never group my guns on any marauder. usually one round is usually sufficient outside of a few elite frigs.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#39 - 2015-02-18 04:25:31 UTC
i used tachyon beams on it. if i remember correctly it had 60+k range with multifrequency.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#40 - 2015-02-18 06:50:02 UTC
Ultimately, what everyone's trying to say here is...just freakin pick one; you won't be making a wrong choice, since both weapon systems are in prime conditions on a Paladin. Try both and see for yourself what you want to throw on there, both have there merits and both have there limits. It may eventually be a mere matter of personal preference.

I personally prefer Tachs over Scor...uh, I mean Pulses. One thing I dissliked about Scorch was that I was having to use it constantly just to be able to get **** done and they were burning out SO MUCH faster than IN Multi. Some may not be bothered in the least bit by that, but I kinda like rolling through the Amarr Epic Arc without having to replace my main set of crystals -- twice over.

At the end of the day, neither are better than the other. Rather, both are excellent weapons but with separately different ups and downs. Fortunately, on the Pally, they both shine well enough that you're gonna see some of their best qualities quickly.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."