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The end of Hybrid buff
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Goose99
#121 - 2011-12-20 19:51:46 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
What penalty should armor plates or rigs have if not mass or speed? Tracking enhancers are a range modifier. They are obviously a low slot module but they do have a mid slot cousin in the form of tracking computers. Would other mid slot module variations for damage ala msf/gyro/ heat sinks have a place in Eve?


Not sure what they would do with plates. Regardless, it won't save Gallante. Diemost with zero plate and 2 nanos goes to 2km/s. Vaga with same 2 nanos goes to 3km/s. It's a 50%, or 1km/s difference. Frankly, it'll get kited just fine without help of plates to weight it down...Lol

As for mid slot dmg mods, I doubt it would contribute to much. Extra mids are hard to come by, except for some caldari boats, which frankly, suck anyway.
Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#122 - 2011-12-20 20:11:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kingwood
Goose99 wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
What penalty should armor plates or rigs have if not mass or speed? Tracking enhancers are a range modifier. They are obviously a low slot module but they do have a mid slot cousin in the form of tracking computers. Would other mid slot module variations for damage ala msf/gyro/ heat sinks have a place in Eve?


Not sure what they would do with plates. Regardless, it won't save Gallante. Diemost with zero plate and 2 nanos goes to 2km/s. Vaga with same 2 nanos goes to 3km/s. It's a 50%, or 1km/s difference. Frankly, it'll get kited just fine without help of plates to weight it down...Lol

As for mid slot dmg mods, I doubt it would contribute to much. Extra mids are hard to come by, except for some caldari boats, which frankly, suck anyway.


Shield Deimos (3 Magstabs, 2 Tes) outdamages Vaga to point range, where it matters.

Edit: I also have no clue why you're focusing so much on the Vaga - a ship which is designed as a kiter and only good against tacklers and ratters, and which will die against anyone competent otherwise.
Goose99
#123 - 2011-12-20 20:32:22 UTC
Kingwood wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
What penalty should armor plates or rigs have if not mass or speed? Tracking enhancers are a range modifier. They are obviously a low slot module but they do have a mid slot cousin in the form of tracking computers. Would other mid slot module variations for damage ala msf/gyro/ heat sinks have a place in Eve?


Not sure what they would do with plates. Regardless, it won't save Gallante. Diemost with zero plate and 2 nanos goes to 2km/s. Vaga with same 2 nanos goes to 3km/s. It's a 50%, or 1km/s difference. Frankly, it'll get kited just fine without help of plates to weight it down...Lol

As for mid slot dmg mods, I doubt it would contribute to much. Extra mids are hard to come by, except for some caldari boats, which frankly, suck anyway.


Shield Deimos (3 Magstabs, 2 Tes) outdamages Vaga to point range, where it matters.

Edit: I also have no clue why you're focusing so much on the Vaga - a ship which is designed as a kiter and only good against tacklers and ratters, and which will die against anyone competent otherwise.


Except it won't, even with null. Don't read stacked magstab dps stats off your EFT. Undock, and you'll see how resists work.Roll

Liang brought up Diemos vs Vaga, then promptly started going on about how Gallante and hybrids are fine because of it. Don't ask me why. This masochism runs deep...Lol
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#124 - 2011-12-21 00:38:43 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
What penalty should armor plates or rigs have if not mass or speed? Tracking enhancers are a range modifier. They are obviously a low slot module but they do have a mid slot cousin in the form of tracking computers. Would other mid slot module variations for damage ala msf/gyro/ heat sinks have a place in Eve?


Make it sig radius, like the shield rigs. Or something else, but NOT hull HP.

Mid slot damage mods are fine and all, but blasterboats must have mwd, point, web and/or cap booster. Frankly, there is no room for mid slot damage mods so the point is moot.

The regenarative plating module (the one that increases armor by a %) is a possible solution - if it is buffed a bit. It could be made slightly less effective than the plates, but it wouldnt destroy speed/agility. Kinda like a LSE for armor. I am no capital expert but I understand that module is actually used on some cap ships, so it would need to be limited to not make it op in those situations.

Regardless, I am no fan of shield tanking Gallente ships, but I understand it is viable in some circumstances - if you gimp your tackle. The 'natural' tank needs to be tweaked a bit. As I stated earlier, a 'light armor' mobility option. As Kingwood said - the way armor tanking is now just doesnt mesh with gallente engagement doctrine. It needs to be fixed so there is at least a non-speed destroying option (like a less effective LSE type module) for armor tanking.

Just IMHO.
Goose99
#125 - 2011-12-21 01:19:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
Emily Poast wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
What penalty should armor plates or rigs have if not mass or speed? Tracking enhancers are a range modifier. They are obviously a low slot module but they do have a mid slot cousin in the form of tracking computers. Would other mid slot module variations for damage ala msf/gyro/ heat sinks have a place in Eve?


Make it sig radius, like the shield rigs. Or something else, but NOT hull HP.

Mid slot damage mods are fine and all, but blasterboats must have mwd, point, web and/or cap booster. Frankly, there is no room for mid slot damage mods so the point is moot.

The regenarative plating module (the one that increases armor by a %) is a possible solution - if it is buffed a bit. It could be made slightly less effective than the plates, but it wouldnt destroy speed/agility. Kinda like a LSE for armor. I am no capital expert but I understand that module is actually used on some cap ships, so it would need to be limited to not make it op in those situations.

Regardless, I am no fan of shield tanking Gallente ships, but I understand it is viable in some circumstances - if you gimp your tackle. The 'natural' tank needs to be tweaked a bit. As I stated earlier, a 'light armor' mobility option. As Kingwood said - the way armor tanking is now just doesnt mesh with gallente engagement doctrine. It needs to be fixed so there is at least a non-speed destroying option (like a less effective LSE type module) for armor tanking.

Just IMHO.


Regenerative plate work on caps because of percentage based bonus, much like trimarks. I wouldn't mind to see it buffed either.

As for shield tanking Gallante, it's a misnomer. Rather than shield tanked, it's more like untanked.Lol
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#126 - 2011-12-21 01:30:48 UTC
Goose99 wrote:

Regenerative plate work because of percentage based bonus, much like trimarks. I wouldn't mind to see it buffed either.

As for shield tanking Gallante, it's a misnomer. Rather than shield tanked, it's more like untanked.Lol


So Vagacanes are also untanked by your definition?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#127 - 2011-12-21 01:56:25 UTC
Confirming that gallente ships don't actually get extra hit points when you fit shield extenders to them :/
Goose99
#128 - 2011-12-21 02:38:47 UTC
Smabs wrote:
Confirming that gallente ships don't actually get extra hit points when you fit shield extenders to them :/


Also confirming Gallante has the extra mids to pin down targets with webs.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2011-12-21 04:50:12 UTC
Goose99 wrote:

Diemost with 2 nanos goes at 2km/s. Vega with same 2 nanos goes at 3km/s. That's a 50% difference, plus less agility and acceleration. The fact that this is "second fastest in game" is precisely why Winmatar wins.Lol


If you hadn't noticed, the Vagabond uses one of its ship bonuses to get this speed. It's not like its a racial problem. It's the fact that the vagabond was designed to be a fast cruiser and sacrifices one of its ship bonuses that could be used for damage, etc, and uses it for speed. Of course it is faster. It's supposed to be.
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#130 - 2011-12-21 04:50:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Smabs
I think as long as you fit two nanos, 1 gyro and no damage control you're doing pretty well.

Edit: Real pvp'ers don't use multiple damage mods for no reason.
Umega
Solis Mensa
#131 - 2011-12-21 05:23:31 UTC
Cooool..

Another one of these "Gallente should be exactly like Matar...gallente faster, matar slower, falloff, blah blah i dont understand dps curves blah blah if i could just learn to do more than 'click orbit' and my better optimal 5 sec RoF rails should have same alpha as arties blah blah" threads.

If you can't fly a particular style or ship.. don't. If it isn't right ship for current operation.. use the right one instead of forcing your favorite ship to become what You believe it should be.

Some of you are idiots.. jus' flat out idiots.

Here's to hoping that the idiots don't turn variety and varying play styles and choices into all the same thing.. not much of a vanilla fan myself. Want my ice cream shop to have a wide degree in choices for me to taste and enjoy.

 Ume-Pro Studios
Goose99
#132 - 2011-12-21 05:29:46 UTC
Now that everyone and their mother flies Winmatar, there is "variety."Cool
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#133 - 2011-12-21 05:32:40 UTC
Umega wrote:
Here's to hoping that the idiots don't turn variety and varying play styles and choices into all the same thing.. not much of a vanilla fan myself. Want my ice cream shop to have a wide degree in choices for me to taste and enjoy.


+1 FOR 51 FLAVORS!!!!
Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#134 - 2011-12-21 12:28:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kingwood
Goose99 wrote:
Smabs wrote:
Confirming that gallente ships don't actually get extra hit points when you fit shield extenders to them :/


Also confirming Gallante has the extra mids to pin down targets with webs.


You don't need webs.

http://genos.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11918134
Xol'tan
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#135 - 2011-12-21 12:45:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Xol'tan
Onictus wrote:
Xol'tan wrote:
Theres no reason in a fleet to fly anything other than a maelstrom the exception being support and infact its at the piont now where its expected you fly a Alpha setup even if you can only fit t1 1400's.

Rails have poor alpha and perform very badly in lag where they cannot leverage there slightly higher dps, latency demands you fit for the highest Alpha you can to be effective.

Something needs to change or the only ships we are going to see in pvp are Minmitar, atm they hold the best title in far to many catagories Canes and Tornado's Being best BC, Scimitars best Logi and Mealstroms best Fleet BS thats not even looking at HAC's, Dictors and Hictors.

I dont want this to seem a rant against Winmatar but rather a plea to ccp to do something new with hybrids to make them desireable again and ensure some variaty in fleet compositions.



This is not reality.

Abbaddon is pretty much the gold standard for large scale fleet engagements, alpha maels reach a point of diminishing returns once you fleet crests a certain number. Alpha isn't that important unless you are over 850 in system, and 250 pulse lasers will ******* wreck things just as well. Maels are so damned slow that they are relatively easy to out maneuver. Drop a Geddon fleet in the middle of a pack of maels and watch what happens.

Oracle, Naga and Tornado are relatively close depending on application. The guys flying them LOVE their Nagas surprisingly. The Oracle is facefucking DPS from a decent range....easily the best anti-support of the three, and the Tornado....well Tornado is as fast as a Fleet Stabber with a Maelstrom's guns.....whats not to like?

In BC's Drake has 85% more kills than Hurricane this month on eve-kill. Hurricane is a better hack and slash platform, but once you have more than 10 or so to a side the Drake is a better because it can actually survive an alpha or two. This becomes more important when you are stuck on a **** caged gate.

Dictors.....yeah all Sabre all day, this is unsurprising, the fastest ship fits the roll best.

Scimi is only situationally the best shield logi, mainly because the Basi is so bloody slow. The logis all have their uses now, Oneiros is no longer reviled.

Frigate...welp Dram is still the king of frigs, but holy hell the entire Gallente line + Dare Devil are just NASTY now, I mean nasty. I mean really they made my Ares faster....yes please.

T3 Tengu...need I say more

Recons are a closer race between Rapiers and Lachesis....again situational...but you rarely see either turned from fleet.


http://www.executive-outcomes.net/edk/index.php/kill_related/270351/42200 is what happens when Maelstroms meet Abbaddons, besides this threads about hybrids not lasers.
Dana Gilmour
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#136 - 2011-12-21 13:47:26 UTC
Xol'tan wrote:


http://www.executive-outcomes.net/edk/index.php/kill_related/270351/42200 is what happens when Maelstroms meet Abbaddons, besides this threads about hybrids not lasers.


Yeah, one side having more than double, probably near triple the numbers (there seem to be some bugs on that log with many GS & friends Maelstroms appearing on the other side too) didn't have to do anything with the outcome.

Next time try to think before posting, less wasted time both for you and the rest.
Xol'tan
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#137 - 2011-12-21 14:05:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Xol'tan
Dana Gilmour wrote:
Xol'tan wrote:


http://www.executive-outcomes.net/edk/index.php/kill_related/270351/42200 is what happens when Maelstroms meet Abbaddons, besides this threads about hybrids not lasers.


Yeah, one side having more than double, probably near triple the numbers (there seem to be some bugs on that log with many GS & friends Maelstroms appearing on the other side too) didn't have to do anything with the outcome.

Next time try to think before posting, less wasted time both for you and the rest.


Was 390 vs 310 Abbas, Guardians and Tengus vs Meals, Scimis and Scorps the log doesent show all the enemy who ran for it after seeing Abbas insta poping to the crazy alpha. Oh i should probably mention that all the Abbadons where fitting 1400mm too just incase i needed to futher highlight the disparity between projectiles and other weapon systems.
Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#138 - 2011-12-21 14:35:32 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
What penalty should armor plates or rigs have if not mass or speed? Tracking enhancers are a range modifier. They are obviously a low slot module but they do have a mid slot cousin in the form of tracking computers. Would other mid slot module variations for damage ala msf/gyro/ heat sinks have a place in Eve?


Make it sig radius, like the shield rigs. Or something else, but NOT hull HP.

Mid slot damage mods are fine and all, but blasterboats must have mwd, point, web and/or cap booster. Frankly, there is no room for mid slot damage mods so the point is moot.

The regenarative plating module (the one that increases armor by a %) is a possible solution - if it is buffed a bit. It could be made slightly less effective than the plates, but it wouldnt destroy speed/agility. Kinda like a LSE for armor. I am no capital expert but I understand that module is actually used on some cap ships, so it would need to be limited to not make it op in those situations.

Regardless, I am no fan of shield tanking Gallente ships, but I understand it is viable in some circumstances - if you gimp your tackle. The 'natural' tank needs to be tweaked a bit. As I stated earlier, a 'light armor' mobility option. As Kingwood said - the way armor tanking is now just doesnt mesh with gallente engagement doctrine. It needs to be fixed so there is at least a non-speed destroying option (like a less effective LSE type module) for armor tanking.

Just IMHO.


Hi, it's not really what I meant. You can't change Gallente to account for today's metagame - and brawling in full tackle range is bad, regardless of race. What CCP should do is look at how to make Armor tanking more viable in general, not only from the Gallente viewpoint. Getting rid of the speed penalty stemming from Armor rigs would be a good first step.

Just consider that shield-tanked Zealots and Deimoses perform better than Armor tanks because they have the speed, range and damage to engage outnumbered and get away. Fighting outnumbered means running fights, and that's where Minmatar and shield-tanked Gallente/Amarr ships are really good at. The new Tier 3 BCs fit perfectly into today's Eve, btw: Large range and damage output coupled with fast ships and rather low EHP (which doesn't really matter).

It's just a short gist of my opinion. I might actually do a write-up during semester break after Christmas on a few things which have been on my mind and hope that CCP might actually take a look it.

Just to repeat: This is not about balance between the individual weapon systems. It's about Eve's metagame, which suits Minmatar more than it does Gallente.
Dana Gilmour
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#139 - 2011-12-21 14:49:24 UTC
Xol'tan wrote:
Dana Gilmour wrote:
Xol'tan wrote:


http://www.executive-outcomes.net/edk/index.php/kill_related/270351/42200 is what happens when Maelstroms meet Abbaddons, besides this threads about hybrids not lasers.


Yeah, one side having more than double, probably near triple the numbers (there seem to be some bugs on that log with many GS & friends Maelstroms appearing on the other side too) didn't have to do anything with the outcome.

Next time try to think before posting, less wasted time both for you and the rest.


Was 390 vs 310 Abbas, Guardians and Tengus vs Meals, Scimis and Scorps the log doesent show all the enemy who ran for it after seeing there Abbas insta poping to the crazy alpha. Oh i should probably mention that all the Abbadons where fitting 1400mm.


I see more than double Maels there on the log and I can't imagine half the Abaddons left the field without even fire once.

That is besides the point anyways. There are a lot of laser Abaddons out there, and countless fights where they won against Maels. Linking one out of thousands to make a point is beyond stupid. Strange how you don't see it, being that obvious and all.
Xol'tan
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#140 - 2011-12-21 14:58:41 UTC
Dana Gilmour wrote:
Xol'tan wrote:
Dana Gilmour wrote:
Xol'tan wrote:


http://www.executive-outcomes.net/edk/index.php/kill_related/270351/42200 is what happens when Maelstroms meet Abbaddons, besides this threads about hybrids not lasers.


Yeah, one side having more than double, probably near triple the numbers (there seem to be some bugs on that log with many GS & friends Maelstroms appearing on the other side too) didn't have to do anything with the outcome.

Next time try to think before posting, less wasted time both for you and the rest.


Was 390 vs 310 Abbas, Guardians and Tengus vs Meals, Scimis and Scorps the log doesent show all the enemy who ran for it after seeing there Abbas insta poping to the crazy alpha. Oh i should probably mention that all the Abbadons where fitting 1400mm.


I see more than double Maels there on the log and I can't imagine half the Abaddons left the field without even fire once.

That is besides the point anyways. There are a lot of laser Abaddons out there, and countless fights where they won against Maels. Linking one out of thousands to make a point is beyond stupid. Strange how you don't see it, being that obvious and all.


Ok as your missing the piont... In large fleet battles everyone fits projectiles be they Mealstrom or Abbadon and you would be stupid not too, theres a good reason you dont see fleets of Rokhs or Megas... they have no ALPHA.