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Star system boundary's

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Isabelle Evotori
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-12-21 07:23:29 UTC
I got a question, are there any boundary's to the space of a star system?

I mean can i use my impulse engines to move from one star-gate to the other?

Not that i would do this cause i would take extremely long to get there. But is this actually possible? Or do star systems have a boundary, an edge of a map of some sort?
Nnamuachs
Kiith Paktu
Reeloaded.
#2 - 2011-12-21 07:27:44 UTC
Isabelle Evotori wrote:
I got a question, are there any boundary's to the space of a star system?

I mean can i use my impulse engines to move from one star-gate to the other?

Not that i would do this cause i would take extremely long to get there. But is this actually possible? Or do star systems have a boundary, an edge of a map of some sort?


There are no boundries persay. Some people use to have bookmarks in a system that in theory took them to the middle of jovian space. However because you couldn't effect a session change without jumping a gate they never left their own system, even though they warped multiple light years.
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#3 - 2011-12-21 07:33:56 UTC
not sure on this one but i thought it was 20AU from the outer most planet. It was used to stop people making deep safe spots
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Isabelle Evotori
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2011-12-21 07:36:10 UTC
Nnamuachs wrote:
Isabelle Evotori wrote:
I got a question, are there any boundary's to the space of a star system?

I mean can i use my impulse engines to move from one star-gate to the other?

Not that i would do this cause i would take extremely long to get there. But is this actually possible? Or do star systems have a boundary, an edge of a map of some sort?


There are no boundries persay. Some people use to have bookmarks in a system that in theory took them to the middle of jovian space. However because you couldn't effect a session change without jumping a gate they never left their own system, even though they warped multiple light years.



so there are no boundaries. but warping to this bookmark wouldn't actually get you there. cause there isn't a session change. So actually you would be on the local channel of the star-system where you warped from. Meaning that nobody is in the star-system that you warped to.
Does this mean that i could warp to a low sec system, and find nobody there? I could for example mine all day without harassment? Or would that star-system be empty, nothing to interact with?
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#5 - 2011-12-21 07:51:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Xercodo
You would never actually be in the system. In other words, because of the session change mechanic every solar system is effectively the only solar system in the universe without session changes. The things that systems have relative to each other is the stars in the background and the new nebulae. Before those were implemented each system essentially worked independently from all the others with the only things tying them together being the old, constellation wide nebulae, the constellation attribute itself and the region attribute.

Now, after Crucible, it seems the systems communicate with each other more, or at least have the illusion of being connected by the devs having used a script to generate star positions and gate angles and the whole system is just a list of static data for each solar system. But on the other hand we now have jump drive effects that shoot you off in the direction of the target system.

Either way my point is that without session change your solar system might as well be alone in the universe so without it you'll only ever see the stuff in your system.

The Drake is a Lie
Isabelle Evotori
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2011-12-21 07:54:46 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
You would never actually be in the system. In other words, because of the session change mechanic every solar system is effectively the only solar system in the universe without session changes. The things that systems have relative to each other is the stars in the background and the new nebulae. Before those were implemented each system essentially worked independently from all the others with the only things tying them together being the old, constellation wide nebulae, the constellation attribute itself and the region attribute.

Now, after Crucible, it seems the systems communicate with each other more, or at least have the illusion of being connected by the devs having used a script to generate star positions and gate angles and the whole system is just a list of static data for each solar system. But on the other hand we now have jump drive effects that shoot you off in the direction of the target system.

Either way my point is that without session change your solar system might as well be alone in the universe so without it you'll only ever see the stuff in your system.



Hmmm. thx for clearing that up. bit of a immersion breaker tho....

O well....... it is just a game Big smile
Hecatonis
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2011-12-21 08:00:42 UTC
Xercodo wrote:


Now, after Crucible, it seems the systems communicate with each other more, or at least have the illusion of being connected by the devs having used a script to generate star positions and gate angles and the whole system is just a list of static data for each solar system. But on the other hand we now have jump drive effects that shoot you off in the direction of the target system.

Either way my point is that without session change your solar system might as well be alone in the universe so without it you'll only ever see the stuff in your system.


(this is majorly simplified so dont take this as me saying it was easy)

for alinement of stargates and the placement of the new nebulae, CCP just used the existing co-ordinance system of their universe and scaled and placed the images accordingly. my only gripe about the nebulae is that you can never get "behind" them, you see the same side regardless of location, the scale is all that changes.

but the others are right, you might as well be in a different universe without a session change. would be super cool if you could slowboat your way to another systme
Isabelle Evotori
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2011-12-21 08:03:47 UTC
Hecatonis wrote:
Xercodo wrote:


Now, after Crucible, it seems the systems communicate with each other more, or at least have the illusion of being connected by the devs having used a script to generate star positions and gate angles and the whole system is just a list of static data for each solar system. But on the other hand we now have jump drive effects that shoot you off in the direction of the target system.

Either way my point is that without session change your solar system might as well be alone in the universe so without it you'll only ever see the stuff in your system.


(this is majorly simplified so dont take this as me saying it was easy)

for alinement of stargates and the placement of the new nebulae, CCP just used the existing co-ordinance system of their universe and scaled and placed the images accordingly. my only gripe about the nebulae is that you can never get "behind" them, you see the same side regardless of location, the scale is all that changes.

but the others are right, you might as well be in a different universe without a session change. would be super cool if you could slowboat your way to another systme


I agree, limitless exploring. imagine expensive loot waiting in the void.
Bane Loppknow
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-12-21 08:04:35 UTC
It's only an immersion breaker if you make it one, really. With the limit of 20 AU on bookmarks, it would take a very very long time to actually get to where another system should be.

Also, if you want a lore reason... how about the long trip there, time dilation happens, you've 'traveled' 500 years in the future, star has exploded because of falcon. Or nova-bombs. Or nova-falcons.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#10 - 2011-12-21 08:14:44 UTC
EVE will be dead before you'd get to the next system.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Hecatonis
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2011-12-21 08:15:40 UTC
Bane Loppknow wrote:
It's only an immersion breaker if you make it one, really. With the limit of 20 AU on bookmarks, it would take a very very long time to actually get to where another system should be.

Also, if you want a lore reason... how about the long trip there, time dilation happens, you've 'traveled' 500 years in the future, star has exploded because of falcon. Or nova-bombs. Or nova-falcons.


meh a better lore reason would be that your nav computer is only effectively accurate on a solar system scale, get out too far and you cant accurately place your location thus your chances of hitting the other system is impossibly slim.

you over shoot it, you sit between system, ect. over that long of distance even a one millionth of an error put you so far off course that you get lost in the spaces between stars.

(CCP should totally hire me to give them lore reasons of why things are like they are, hell i will take a dust beta key and some free months of play. i am cheep and easy like that)
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#12 - 2011-12-21 08:26:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciar Meara
I don't think anybody even grazed the minimum distances that it would take to reach another starsystem. Maybe some guy with a degree in fysics can calculate it for us.

But even if they used the trick where you shut down and let emergency warp displace you to space outside of the bounds of the solarsystem you still only move at 13 au per second. that means you still have to travel (non stop) for quite a while before you reach several light years. Since one light year is supposed to be 63,241 AU you would have to travel non stop for goodly period I imagine, I think half a day for only light year? (but i am not the physicist)

Mind you thats only with a ship like a malediction that can go 13 au, most go 3 au and that would make it an even longer trip without taking into account the capacitor recharge you would obviously need to endure. It would provide for interesting mechanics if it where possible to do so though.

I'd hate to be in that kind of CTA making a surprise assault on a system 5 light years away, neither would my GF for that matter.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#13 - 2011-12-21 08:40:57 UTC
I made a fit in EFT for a cepter that can get over 52,000 m/s... fastest ship in EVE afaik... and that's in a class 6 wormhole....

...anyway, at that speed I figured it'd take you more then 30 days still to travel 1AU...

I don't think you'd ever get to another system even if we didn't have the session change limitation...

The Drake is a Lie
ariana ailith
Dukalin
#14 - 2011-12-21 08:49:43 UTC
It;s simple.

In theory you can fly from Jita to Perimeter without a gate.
However, when and if you finally get to Perimeter the environment doesn't load because you didn't trigger the session change with a gate. As mentioned above.

Thus the system would be empty, unusable.

Think of; no players, no objects (asteroids and such), no NPC's... Just nothing.
Additionally. I'm fairly sure you won't spend weeks flying there on a MWD just for that.
Isabelle Evotori
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2011-12-21 09:51:54 UTC
Thx for the info.
Not that i was planing on doing such a thing. because the distances are huge. and time is short.
And time dilation should prevent warping to a noter solar-system in the first place. because everybody will be 500 years dead by the time you'd get there. So it is kind of logical that the system is empty then.

Hmmmm kind of imersive when you think of it that way.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2011-12-21 11:14:36 UTC
Reminds me of the guy who slowboated to jove space
and even provided screenshots of it ...
Nnamuachs
Kiith Paktu
Reeloaded.
#17 - 2011-12-21 11:27:09 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
Reminds me of the guy who slowboated to jove space
and even provided screenshots of it ...


I know back in the day you could stack MWD's and get some insane speeds but are you sure this was a slowboat? Originally you also used to be able to manually make bookmarks by right clicking in the map, are you sure this wasn't the actual method?
Gridwalker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2011-12-21 11:43:20 UTC
Isabelle Evotori wrote:
Thx for the info.
Not that i was planing on doing such a thing. because the distances are huge. and time is short.
And time dilation should prevent warping to a noter solar-system in the first place. because everybody will be 500 years dead by the time you'd get there. So it is kind of logical that the system is empty then.

Hmmmm kind of imersive when you think of it that way.


The formula to calculate this, if you're interested, is called the Lorentz Transformation:

g = 1 / SQRT( 1 - ( v^2 / c^2 ) )

Let's use that 52,000 m/s figure from Zercodo's ultra-fast interceptor... (The space shuttle travels at around 7,778 m/s in orbit, depending on altitude, if you're curious.)

g = 1 / SQRT( 1 - ( 52000^2 / 299792458^2 ) )
g = 1.00000002

In other words, for every day you traveled, your "time dilation" would be about 0.0017 seconds (1.7 milliseconds).

I'm not convinced that the time dilation would be particularly significant for even the fastest ship.

We have a bigger physics problem with ship travel in EVE. An AU is 149,598,000,000 meters. Let's take the slowest ship in warp, the freighter, at 0.75 au/s. That gives us 112,198,500,000 m/s while in warp. Now light "only" goes 299,792,458 m/s. In other words, even in a freighter, you're warping at over 374.25 times the speed of light.

What happens to our Lorentz Transformation at that speed? Ugly, ugly things. :)

g = 1 / SQRT( 1 - ( 112198500000^2 / 299792458^2) )
g = 1 / SQRT( -140065 )

Uh oh, square root of a negative number!

g = -0.0026719923 i

Notice that "i" at the end? That indicates an "imaginary" number. That's what a mathematician would say given that equation. A physicist, on the other hand, would say "you're violating the laws of physics!" (Actually, they would probably mumble about a "Lorentz symmetry violation", and then wander off shaking their heads.)

The implication could be that, if the freighter travels for a day, it will arrive around 231 seconds before it left. Or it could be that the laws of the universe simply won't let it happen, because it would take infinite energy to accelerate a spaceship to the speed of light, which is why you can never actually go faster than light in the first place.

Of course, there IS a bit of a way around this in the EVE lore. I believe in EVE, ships use a variation on the "Alcubierre drive", which creates a bubble of space-time. The ship itself doesn't move; space-time does. It's a real theory. You can look it up. There are a few engineering difficulties with it, but the theory does allow us to stay within Einstein's laws while traveling faster than light and without arriving at your destination with everyone you know already dead, or arriving before you left. Which are two things I always check for before booking a flight. ;-)
Nnamuachs
Kiith Paktu
Reeloaded.
#19 - 2011-12-21 12:00:06 UTC
@Gridwalker

The lynchpin is any physics discussion though is regarding how accurate the information actually is. Yes there are laws of physics based upon what we can actually observe. But that doesn't guarantee it as a constant. I know there's talk of Tachyons traveling faster than the speed of light, additionally there have been more recent discoveries, at least in the field of fiber optics, that information can actually be carried and travels faster in "dark" rather than light. E.G. a light is constantly on and then to actually transmit data its turned off.

Definitely makes for some interesting theoretical discussions i'm sure.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2011-12-21 16:49:43 UTC
Nnamuachs wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
Reminds me of the guy who slowboated to jove space
and even provided screenshots of it ...


I know back in the day you could stack MWD's and get some insane speeds but are you sure this was a slowboat? Originally you also used to be able to manually make bookmarks by right clicking in the map, are you sure this wasn't the actual method?


Oh i've seen that question coming, because of my poor wording.

I think that was past the multiple-mwd-era, so he only had one.

With "slowboating" i meant moving without warping,
which is quite slow considering the distance. ^^

He kept his computer running for days, if not weeks ... can't remember.

He gave a screenshot of the map and, if i recall correctly, some shots of the system.

Of course, he wasn't really there because he couldn't force a session change ...
... which i really believe there is a way around this, tbh ... but can't test it myself. lol
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