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Latest CSM notes : Rumours of attribute points/implants being removed.

First post First post
Author
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#621 - 2015-02-10 23:53:16 UTC
Make in-station clone jumps zero cooldown. Problem solved, everyone can use their +5 sets and PVP sets.
cpu939
Eternal Darkness.
Initiative Mercenaries
#622 - 2015-02-11 01:29:44 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
We can argue back and forth, but none of us have any actual data to back up the "facts" that keep being mentioned:

- newbies don't use remaps
- newbies do use remaps
- newbies don't understand remaps
- the average attribute usage is a "balanced" remap
- the average attribute usage is a "focused" remap
- having implants discourages PVP
- having implants doesn't matter - equal numbers of people pewpew with or without implants
- jump clones are being used for quick bursts of PVP then back to training
- jump clones are only being used for travel


these are the sort of question we should look at in regards to this issues maybe CCP Darwin can provide information by mining the data

1 - how many trail accounts not linked to an active account are remaped towards skilling
2 - of the player base how many have the attreibutes set as balanced
3 - how often are players loosing implants and what type of implant skills vs hardwires
4 - how often are people jc to training clones
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#623 - 2015-02-11 09:51:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
Mr Omniblivion wrote:

We have hostile fleets roaming through Deklein on an hourly basis. Most of those hostile fleets are interceptors- If we want to fight them and be competitive, we generally would need to fly smaller ships to be able to brawl.

Most of us in Deklein have at least +4s or +5s installed in our clone. If we wanted to go brawl with those interceptors, we would probably be flying a ship that is several times less valuable than our clone. Why would we then go shoot at them if the High Risk of getting blown up would cost 5 times as much as the ship we lost, when the Zero Risk option is just to dock up when we see hostiles enter system?

It's not like there is an actual threat from these roamers except to people not paying attention. There is no incentive to actually stay and fight at all because the nature of their fleets means that they're roaming looking for easy kills. This means that in order for us to have fun, we'd have to risk a high amount of isk- the majority of which in our pod- just to be able to shoot them.

By removing the need for Attribute Implants, instead of docking up and waiting for hostiles to leave, we could actually go out and have fun shooting them in whatever ships without worrying about tens or hundreds of millions of ISK in our pods- just for learning skills faster.


Its not that people don't chase Interceptor fleets because they are afraid of losing Implants, they don't chase Interceptor fleets because its a fundamental waste of time, because Interceptor fleets are functionally uncatchable, and aren't designed to engage in any kind of fight, so aren't going to stick around for anything that has even the slightest chance of killing one. I'm not getting out of bed to spend an hour of my life running in circles to achieve sod-all, regardless of what Implant is in my head or not. In fact, chasing an Interceptor fleet is the one time you can guarantee your Implants are safe, since there isn't going to be a fight anyway.
Leannor
BlackWatch Industrial Group
Reckless Contingency.
#624 - 2015-02-11 10:07:58 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:

We have hostile fleets roaming through Deklein on an hourly basis. Most of those hostile fleets are interceptors- If we want to fight them and be competitive, we generally would need to fly smaller ships to be able to brawl.

Most of us in Deklein have at least +4s or +5s installed in our clone. If we wanted to go brawl with those interceptors, we would probably be flying a ship that is several times less valuable than our clone. Why would we then go shoot at them if the High Risk of getting blown up would cost 5 times as much as the ship we lost, when the Zero Risk option is just to dock up when we see hostiles enter system?

It's not like there is an actual threat from these roamers except to people not paying attention. There is no incentive to actually stay and fight at all because the nature of their fleets means that they're roaming looking for easy kills. This means that in order for us to have fun, we'd have to risk a high amount of isk- the majority of which in our pod- just to be able to shoot them.

By removing the need for Attribute Implants, instead of docking up and waiting for hostiles to leave, we could actually go out and have fun shooting them in whatever ships without worrying about tens or hundreds of millions of ISK in our pods- just for learning skills faster.


People don't chase Interceptor fleets because they are afraid of losing Implants, they don't chase Interceptor fleets because its a fundamental waste of time, because Interceptor fleets are functionally uncatchable, and aren't designed to engage in any kind of fight, so aren't going to stick around for anything that has even the slightest chance of killing one. I'm not getting out of bed to spend an hour of my life running in circles to achieve sod-all, regardless of what Implant is in my head or not. In fact, chasing an Interceptor fleet is the one time you can guarantee your Implants are safe, since there isn't going to be a fight anyway.



yes, i was going to type a more detailed rationale, but actually, "yes" says it all.

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"

Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#625 - 2015-02-11 11:58:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Substance
Mr Omniblivion wrote:

Most of us in Deklein have at least +4s or +5s installed in our clone. If we wanted to go brawl with those interceptors, we would probably be flying a ship that is several times less valuable than our clone. Why would we then go shoot at them if the High Risk of getting blown up would cost 5 times as much as the ship we lost, when the Zero Risk option is just to dock up when we see hostiles enter system?


>In Deklein
>60ish different stations with JC rights to choose from
>Jump clone skills now a core part of recommended skills that everyone is requested to train for deployments
>Could have half a dozen blank clones within two jumps of YA0 for just this reason
>Still doesn't join home defence fleets

Implants are not why you aren't chasing down those inties. It's ok to not chase down inties, but let's not pretend you're concerned about implants.

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer

Tyrendian Biohazard
Ubiquitous Hurt
The WeHurt Initiative
#626 - 2015-02-11 13:55:59 UTC
After a lot of discussions with friends concerning the current setup and the advantages/disadvantages to it, I can see the argument for a change. Rather than argue for keeping the current system, or hammer one specific point over and over again, I’d like to state a few things that came up in conversation that are liked and I feel should be considered for any future changes. Note: these points may have been brought up before, or arguments made against. I’ve had a hard time keeping up with the thread and just feel that a basic contribution is better than none. I don’t intend to argue points back and forth for pages on end.


  • Flexibility to train towards specific goals quicker


There is mention that the attribute system both rewards, and hinders players in their training. While it does allow us to train a specific type of skill quickly, it ultimately is very limited due to remap timing, and the attributes and can potentially hinder a long term training regiment because of prerequisites, or that skills necessary to complete their goals are too far spread out (attribute wise). However, the flexibility to train some skills quicker is a great boost, especially to new players who choose a goal and want enjoy their reward of reaching it. Not only accomplishing their training should be rewarding, but putting thought, research, and planning into setting your goals should be rewarded.


  • Skills should be grouped appropriately, but separated enough to provide a unique experience and individuality to a character


Skills are one of the major aspects that make characters unique. Not only in the abilities they can offer to a corporation, but also in other areas such as the character bazaar. Cross training into skill groups should help in specific careers. Example, training into scanning skills would help a Data/Relic Explorer, but also benefit a DED site runner, someone who mines gas sites, or a combat scanner. However, chances are a person that does one of those things, doesn’t necessarily do the others and helps makes the character as unique as the person that is controlling it.


  • A system that both persists through death of a clone, as well as one that is destroyed on the death of a clone


Having a system that contributes based on both time and money is nice for all players in the game. For those that have planned out their skill training, but don’t have money to drop on implants, a remap system is a great benefit to hitting their goals quicker (and rewarding for putting the effort into planning), while the implant system is great for those that want to remain flexible (flat attribute map) but don’t mind dropping money on increasing their training. Additionally, both provide a risk versus reward mechanic to the player. You can risk taking out a +5 clone and losing it in a PvP situation, but ultimately will train faster if you survive. On the other side, a heavily focused mapped player is rewarded by quicker training in areas they want, but don’t have the flexibility to train other areas.


  • A training system should support multiple “types” of training


From my point of view, there are three types of training that typically take place in EVE and the current system seems to work well for it:

Quote:

A short term “bounce around” training
A medium “good enough” training
A long term “max everything” training


The “bounce around” trainers seems to be new players getting a feel for the game, or those who like to do a little bit of everything. If efficiency of a career were to be scaled from 1 to 5, they would be a 3. They see skills they need, or lack, and train them regardless of map. They don’t care about specialization and enjoy being well rounded.

The “good enough” trainer likes to take specialization skills to almost max, but don’t want to spend 4 weeks of training on a 2% bonus. They tend to be more specialized, but like to be somewhat flexible. When asked to fly a HAC, they immediately hop in any one available and undock and are still effective.

The “max everything” trainer wants the best capability to do the thing they’ve chosen. On the career scale they are a 6. They are the people that have perfect refining skills for everything, or max out large blaster specialization for that extra 2% damage for for their 10b isk incursion ship. They want to do be the best in a field.

My primary concern is the loss of choices. The attribute/implant system allows a lot of choices, and choices lead to gameplay experiences. Not only for the person doing the remap, but also the person sitting on station with a sebo’d Thrasher about to destroy their +5 clone. I am not opposed to a rework of the system, provided that it allows the pilots to have options that our current system does, as well as a risk/reward factor that we love about EVE.

Twitch streamer and EVE NT tournament broadcaster.

Morukk Nuamzzar
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#627 - 2015-02-11 14:51:17 UTC
Little by little and EVE is slowly turning into Hello Kitty Online Ugh
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#628 - 2015-02-11 14:55:08 UTC
Thok'ra Brakis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#629 - 2015-02-11 15:58:25 UTC
Personally, I also think that skillpoints add little to the game besides making you feel like having to readjust them constantly. As for implants, I think they should stay. Skill learning speeds being baseline is fine for me because it allows to branch out at will, but being able to speed up certain things via implants is a good way of improving, optimizing and customizing your character.

However, I'm not a seasoned player, so I might see some things a little wrong.
Wobblypops
Doomheim
#630 - 2015-02-11 20:06:39 UTC
Attribute implants have to go they're ******* stupid. Just let people play the damn game make all base attributes the same for everyone.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#631 - 2015-02-11 20:09:33 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:


Why is 6635 not beside 6636?
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#632 - 2015-02-12 00:59:33 UTC
Because by SP and born date, 7, 8, and 9 are the core of rainfleet. Seemed a more symmetrical arrangement.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#633 - 2015-02-12 07:04:50 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Make in-station clone jumps zero cooldown. Problem solved, everyone can use their +5 sets and PVP sets.

Simple solutions are best solutions.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Jishi Padecain
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#634 - 2015-02-12 07:39:20 UTC
We really need a way to jump into clones in the same station without a cooldown. Even allow us to store several clones in a single station. Being able to hop in and out of clones with learning implants and into combat implants would be nice.

Want to move around a lot and be a mobile operation/fighter? Then you'll have to choose which implants you want to roll in.

Want to be able to swap clones more often and have more options? Then you'll have to settle into a smaller area of operations.

Just a quickly thought out idea. Whatever ends up happening with this whole thing though we need to retain the ability to make choices with each one having an upside and a downside.
Kaely Tanniss
Black Lotus Society.
#635 - 2015-02-12 07:46:15 UTC
Wobblypops wrote:
Attribute implants have to go they're ******* stupid. Just let people play the damn game make all base attributes the same for everyone.


Just because you don't like something or don't understand something doesn't make it stupid. Implants serve a purpose. They have benefits and drwbacks such as risk. If CCP keeps removing the risk factor of the game, it will lose the very core of what the majority of players play it for. If you're afraid to lose implants, don't fit them. Or grind you way to jc's and have an empty clone you can jump to. I, for one, like the implants. They make a charcter customizable and unique. If all chars are the same..what's the point. Eve is supposed to be complex. Eve is supposed to have risk at every turn. Eve is for those that can hack it..and not everyone can hack it. The biggest mistake, imo, that CCP can make is to change the game so much in an attept at a money grab, that they ruin what made it so great to begin with. Eve doesn't need to be "dumbed down"..players need to "smarten up". Twisted

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..

Memphis Baas
#636 - 2015-02-12 12:29:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
*snip* nevermind, sorry.
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#637 - 2015-02-12 12:59:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Celestia Via
Thok'ra Brakis wrote:
Personally, I also think that skillpoints add little to the game besides making you feel like having to readjust them constantly. As for implants, I think they should stay. Skill learning speeds being baseline is fine for me because it allows to branch out at will, but being able to speed up certain things via implants is a good way of improving, optimizing and customizing your character.

However, I'm not a seasoned player, so I might see some things a little wrong.


taking implants away does not necessarily mean you wont be able to speed up certain things in other ways, for example, having more skillpoints to distribute would be an easy workaround. And thats only to appease those who would feel cheated out of their extra points, I dont feel that way since actual learning speed is irrelevant, the point is in it being fair, ie the same for everyone. (same refers to the total pool of skillpoints, not actual learning speed, that would be against variety and customization)


learning implants are not really customization, they're just a one-way road of paying some isk to get a flat bonus, a mundane and sterile process everyone has to go through with every new clone.

Think of it this way : Skillpoints/day actually represent the game time you pay for. As it is now, the top learning implants cost a good deal of ISK, making them unavailable to newer players. I find this unfair, since people rich in ISK get more value for their real money (more SP/hour). And even that can be debated, since I myself for example, have bought the expensive ones but the clone that wears them hardly sees any use just because of its high value. My choice of course but i doubt anyone in their right mind would put a billion isk clone at (casual) risk.

Skill remaps actually are customization, they reflect the choices one makes of what skills to train and when, and how to better achieve their goals. I would support more remaps being available, one/year is very restricting.

edit:
Kaely Tanniss wrote:
Implants serve a purpose. They have benefits and drwbacks such as risk. If CCP keeps removing the risk factor of the game, it will lose the very core of what the majority of players play it for. If you're afraid to lose implants, don't fit them. Or grind you way to jc's and have an empty clone you can jump to. I, for one, like the implants. They make a charcter customizable and unique. If all chars are the same..what's the point. Eve is supposed to be complex. Eve is supposed to have risk at every turn. Eve is for those that can hack it..and not everyone can hack it. The biggest mistake, imo, that CCP can make is to change the game so much in an attept at a money grab, that they ruin what made it so great to begin with. Eve doesn't need to be "dumbed down"..players need to "smarten up". Twisted


I agree on everything, but losing learning implants wont take any risk away, you can still risk alot and have a unique character with the skill hardwire implants and in an even more meaningful way. And yes, I also agree on the complexity, but meaningful one. Learning implants dont represent any real choice, unless someone claims that they dont use them at all to save the isk, which I find unintelligent. Learning implants represent a chore and meaningless complexity, its like for example having to solve the same minigame riddle everytime you undock.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."

Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#638 - 2015-02-12 13:40:45 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Make in-station clone jumps zero cooldown. Problem solved, everyone can use their +5 sets and PVP sets.

Simple solutions are best solutions.

You can't have two JC's in the same station. If you try it by installing one JC, JC'ing away, flying back to the station and JCing to a third JC, the second JC will overwrite the first.

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer

Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#639 - 2015-02-12 13:51:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Khan Wrenth
Sir Substance wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Make in-station clone jumps zero cooldown. Problem solved, everyone can use their +5 sets and PVP sets.

Simple solutions are best solutions.

You can't have two JC's in the same station. If you try it by installing one JC, JC'ing away, flying back to the station and JCing to a third JC, the second JC will overwrite the first.



Perhaps we could make jump-cloning on-par with jump fatigue? As in, a sliding scale where the further you jump, the more fatigue you get before you can jump back? Within same star system = no fatigue, and from there, determine fatigue by number of jumps.

We could re-purpose the useless "informorph synchronizing" skill to provide a 5% per level reduction in the amount of jump clone fatigue you generate.

Frankly the starting cooldown of 24 hours seems needless and arbitrary to me, and that would alleviate a lot of problems that people have been bringing up.
Leannor
BlackWatch Industrial Group
Reckless Contingency.
#640 - 2015-02-12 13:59:52 UTC
Sir Substance wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Make in-station clone jumps zero cooldown. Problem solved, everyone can use their +5 sets and PVP sets.

Simple solutions are best solutions.

You can't have two JC's in the same station. If you try it by installing one JC, JC'ing away, flying back to the station and JCing to a third JC, the second JC will overwrite the first.


pretty sure the implcation was to also enable in station jump cloning as well. Blink

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"