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Why don't more women play Eve Online?

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Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#261 - 2015-02-10 02:58:20 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Celestia Via wrote:

I learned that there are people who actually do not want women in EvE


Then you learned nothing relevant.


its not relevant unless you pair it with the other line below it, the one you deliberately ommited.
how about telling us what you think is relevant instead of borderline flaming?

Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:

I am curious where anyone said they don't want women in EVE; could you point that out? I know that several people have stated they do not want EVE changed simply to be more attractive to women, but that is clearly not the same thing.

Or perhaps you stopped reading those posts too?


Sorry, i never read posts containing phrases like "I am a christian"
I did read the rest however, and if you do too, you will find quite a few posts that even straightforward say that women are not welcome. You will, trust me.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2015-02-10 03:00:19 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Celestia Via wrote:

I learned that there are people who actually do not want women in EvE


Then you learned nothing relevant.


its not relevant unless you pair it with the other line below it, the one you deliberately ommited.
how about telling us what you think is relevant instead of borderline flaming?



I further articulated my post above. It has nothing to do with what I think is relevant, and everything to do with what can be demonstrated as relevant.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
#263 - 2015-02-10 03:03:29 UTC
Did you ever see the Simpsons where Bart and his friends are making a big deal about crossing the border into Shelbyville, while Lisa and her friend run back and forth across it giving precisely no fucks about it?
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#264 - 2015-02-10 03:03:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Celestia Via wrote:


Sorry, i never read posts containing phrases like "I am a christian"
I did read the rest however, and if you do too, you will find quite a few posts that even straightforward say that women are not welcome. You will, trust me.


How about you link us one that you interpret to say "we don't want women in EVE" so we can discuss it. Surely, if these posts are so easy to find, you would have the evidence ready to provide on demand to support your assertions. In my experience, however, people who have to end their assertions with 'trust me' don't generally have the evidence required. If you want to make a point, prove something, you're gonna need more than your word.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#265 - 2015-02-10 03:04:07 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:

Sorry, i never read posts containing phrases like "I am a christian"


That was at the very end of the post, so without reading it, how did you know it was there?

Quote:

I did read the rest however, and if you do too, you will find quite a few posts that even straightforward say that women are not welcome. You will, trust me.


I have read every post in this thread. Again, I saw no such post. You, for some reason, cannot seem to actually point them out. You have also claimed "not to have read" a post from which you somehow know what was said in one of the last paragraphs, but have also claimed that it had a meaning that even a cursory reading will reveal it, in fact, did not contain.

It seems clear from these facts that you are not responding to what people are saying, but to what you imagine they must be thinking, or something to that effect. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the concept of the "strawman argument".

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Kenneth Endashi
Kor-Azor Slave Holdings
#266 - 2015-02-10 03:08:56 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Celestia Via wrote:


Sorry, i never read posts containing phrases like "I am a christian"
I did read the rest however, and if you do too, you will find quite a few posts that even straightforward say that women are not welcome. You will, trust me.


How about you link us one that you interpret to say "we don't want women in EVE" so we can discuss it. Surely, if these posts are so easy to find, you would have the evidence ready to provide on demand to support your assertions.


An ISD came through removing posts. That sounds like the type of posts he probably removed. In my opinion, I think deleting them in a way protects people from reaction who espouse negative ideologies. In a realm where Darwinism is the dominant theme, I find it interesting that it is not left up to our society to evolve out those traits naturally.

Then again, that will never happen, so deleting the comments is the one recourse a moderator has, and understandably, the action he uses.
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#267 - 2015-02-10 03:12:56 UTC
Kenneth Endashi wrote:

An ISD came through removing posts. That sounds like the type of posts he probably removed. In my opinion, I think deleting them in a way protects people from reaction who espouse negative ideologies. In a realm where Darwinism is the dominant theme, I find it interesting that it is not left up to our society to evolve out those traits naturally.

Then again, that will never happen, so deleting the comments is the one recourse a moderator has, and understandably, the action he uses.


I read the entire thread well before the lock. I can assure you, no such posts were present.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#268 - 2015-02-10 03:14:39 UTC
Kenneth Endashi wrote:
In a realm where Darwinism is the dominant theme, I find it interesting that it is not left up to our society to evolve out those traits naturally.
Religion is too closely linked with a functioning society. One can argue that without religion, we would still be eating each other and killing one another on a whim.
However, we do have laws, community centers and such that largely replace religion.
It is that people want to believe that they have a meaning, a purpose and a divine right that will perpetuate religion and help us to draw more and more lines between us and them until we are in the size of tribe we feel most comfortable.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#269 - 2015-02-10 03:14:44 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Celestia Via wrote:

I learned that there are people who actually do not want women in EvE


Then you learned nothing relevant. Here's why.

One, there are people that want to exclude men from enough things to demonstrate that prejudice is not exclusive to gender.

Two, that there are those who would exclude anyone at all should be self-evident to begin with. It's human nature to group together into cliques of certain groups based on certain tendencies or preconceptions. Nowhere is this more evident than in American culture, where races tend to group together with their own race. It's quite common to see, and is part of the root cause of persistent racism in the US, where it also happens with regards to religiosity.

However, that's not to say that if you've only learned this now, it's redundant, but you need to put things in perspective. When you notice a problem, the first thing you need to do, always the first thing, is make sure you don't conflate it with another problem, and as a result, become part of the problem. Because the problem with the lack of women in EVE has absolutely nothing to do with people not wanting women to play EVE. If women wanted to play EVE, they can and will regardless of who wants them there or not, they have that right and ability.

And then, there's the question of, is the low occurrence of women playing EVE really a problem in the first place?


thanks for the clarifications.

one, how is that relevant to anything? there is discrimination in this world we live in but thats not under discussion here.

two, same as above.

"the lack of women in eve has nothing to do with people not wanting women to play eve?"
Allow me to disagree and point out the oxymoron in this remark. Its the same as saying "the lack of jewish people in hitlers germany had nothing to do with germans wanting jews in germany". It generates a logic error.

Finally, in my opinion, yes. 5% of playerbase is low enough for eve to qualify for maybe one of the most male dominated activities on the planet. And its a game. not chainsaw sculpting. I cannot see this as anything but a problem and at least worth discussing.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#270 - 2015-02-10 03:16:04 UTC
Kenneth Endashi wrote:
An ISD came through removing posts.

http://eve-search.com/thread/403507-1 Knock yourself out.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#271 - 2015-02-10 03:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Celestia Via wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Celestia Via wrote:

I learned that there are people who actually do not want women in EvE


Then you learned nothing relevant. Here's why.

One, there are people that want to exclude men from enough things to demonstrate that prejudice is not exclusive to gender.

Two, that there are those who would exclude anyone at all should be self-evident to begin with. It's human nature to group together into cliques of certain groups based on certain tendencies or preconceptions. Nowhere is this more evident than in American culture, where races tend to group together with their own race. It's quite common to see, and is part of the root cause of persistent racism in the US, where it also happens with regards to religiosity.

However, that's not to say that if you've only learned this now, it's redundant, but you need to put things in perspective. When you notice a problem, the first thing you need to do, always the first thing, is make sure you don't conflate it with another problem, and as a result, become part of the problem. Because the problem with the lack of women in EVE has absolutely nothing to do with people not wanting women to play EVE. If women wanted to play EVE, they can and will regardless of who wants them there or not, they have that right and ability.

And then, there's the question of, is the low occurrence of women playing EVE really a problem in the first place?


thanks for the clarifications.

one, how is that relevant to anything? there is discrimination in this world we live in but thats not under discussion here.

two, same as above.

"the lack of women in eve has nothing to do with people not wanting women to play eve?"
Allow me to disagree and point out the oxymoron in this remark. Its the same as saying "the lack of jewish people in hitlers germany had nothing to do with germans wanting jews in germany". It generates a logic error.

Finally, in my opinion, yes. 5% of playerbase is low enough for eve to qualify for maybe one of the most male dominated activities on the planet. And its a game. not chainsaw sculpting. I cannot see this as anything but a problem and at least worth discussing.


The only logic error here was the one where you resort to Godwin's Law. You have to demonstrate how people not wanting women to play means they don't, or the assertion that this happens can be dismissed. Accepting it without evidence is also an error in logic. Maybe women don't play because they don't want to. Many men don't play because they don't want to as well. My brother, for example, is not interested in the least.

Let me rephrase my last question, though. Is the low occurrence of men in beauty salons a problem? It's the same question with different particulars. The simple fact is, what appeals to men won't always appeal to women, and what appeals to women won't always appeal to men. Note I don't say what appeals to x never appeals to y, I specify 'not always', because there are always exceptions. In this case, EVE is a game that appeals primarily to men, while beauty salons are something that appeal primarily to women.

Maybe more men would want to go to beauty salons if they started playing football and offering us blokes a free beer to get our nails done. Would you like your beauty salons changed to be more inclusive for men?

Because the bottom line is, the fact that women DO play EVE means people not wanting them to have no affect at all.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#272 - 2015-02-10 03:19:46 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
"the lack of women in eve has nothing to do with people not wanting women to play eve?"
Allow me to disagree and point out the oxymoron in this remark. Its the same as saying "the lack of jewish people in hitlers germany had nothing to do with germans wanting jews in germany". It generates a logic error.


On the contrary, the logic error is in assuming that the lack of women in EVE is necessarily caused by people not wanting women in EVE. The fact that Hitler did not want Jews in Germany led to a lack of Jews there does not somehow mean that a lack of any other group in any given place is due to them not being wanted there. There is also a lack of Hispanic people in remote parts of Siberia; is that due to Siberians actively trying to keep Hispanics out?

The idea that people do not want women in EVE has not even been established; it cannot be used to draw any conclusions about cause and effect until it is established.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#273 - 2015-02-10 03:20:10 UTC
The logic is, regardless of what you say, "relevant" or "germaine" to you will always be your subjective judgement. That others find something relevant or germaine is sufficient. You not finding such merely means you don't find it as such. There you go.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#274 - 2015-02-10 03:21:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Celestia Via
Kestral Anneto wrote:
What I don't understand is if women where interested in EvE, they would be playing it, if they aren't, they are obviously not interested, why change a well loved game for people that aren't interested?
On a different note, why is it that women 'have' to be involved in EVERYTHING that men do? Can't men just have something where its NOT pandering to women? Women just come into a community and start demanding things change, how about you adapt? Yes, men are crude, yes we swear, yes we are competative, back-stabbing b@stards to each other and anyone around us in game, don't like it? Go do something else, simple



okay, doing your homework for you. here is one.
just because you assumed i wouldn't.

edit: reading through this thread inorder to call your lie, on such posts not being here, i also read all of your posts...
tbh it just seems to me you want to argue about anything, no real opinion in any of them, only disagreement.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#275 - 2015-02-10 03:23:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiryen O'Bannon
Celestia Via wrote:
Kestral Anneto wrote:
What I don't understand is if women where interested in EvE, they would be playing it, if they aren't, they are obviously not interested, why change a well loved game for people that aren't interested?
On a different note, why is it that women 'have' to be involved in EVERYTHING that men do? Can't men just have something where its NOT pandering to women? Women just come into a community and start demanding things change, how about you adapt? Yes, men are crude, yes we swear, yes we are competative, back-stabbing b@stards to each other and anyone around us in game, don't like it? Go do something else, simple



okay, doing your homework for you. here is one.
just because you assumed i wouldn't.


That post does not say that women aren't wanted in EVE, just that it should not pander to their desires. Some women clearly do like that sort of environment and he says nothing to indicate they should leave; just that women that don't like it shouldn't play.

Also, just FYI, that was your homework. When you assert something exists, it's on you to demonstrate it, not on others. That's called "burden of proof". Which, incidentally, your example does not meet.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#276 - 2015-02-10 03:23:39 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:
The logic is, regardless of what you say, "relevant" or "germaine" to you will always be your subjective judgement. That others find something relevant or germaine is sufficient. You not finding such merely means you don't find it as such. There you go.


If you can't demonstrate relevance, then it's irrelevant. Subjectivity can be dismissed as irrelevant by default.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#277 - 2015-02-10 03:33:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Celestia Via
listen, you can both argue that the phrase "why do women have to be involved in everything men do" and "go do something else"
does not, in your minds mean that women are not wanted. And that by your logic, women not being wanted has somehow nothing to do with women actually being here, but all you do is argue.

if you cannot spot the faults in your logic i cant help, sorry.
But then again, i do believe that disagreeing is your only goal and would even go to further logic extremes to achieve it.

edit: the lack of men in beauty salons could very well be a problem to women, who might even be discussing it as we speak, although at modern day and age, and being a good friend of a beauty salon worker, i doubt there is a lack of men there to begin with.

As for that hispanics in siberia remark, i cannot even begin to point out how out of place it is. Could there be hispanics there if they were not wanted? is the actual question, and not the other way around. Your failure to distinguish between the two shows me alot about your logic skills.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#278 - 2015-02-10 03:39:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Celestia Via wrote:
listen, you can both argue that the phrase "why do women have to be involved in everything men do" and "go do something else"
does not, in your minds mean that women are not wanted. And that by your logic, women not being wanted has somehow nothing to do with women actually being here, but all you do is argue.

if you cannot spot the faults in your logic i cant help, sorry.
But then again, i do believe that disagreeing is your only goal and would even go to further logic extremes to achieve it.


No, don't turn this around on us, you're the one making a correlation without demonstrating causation. You can't just make up 'faults' in our logic to excuse the complete lack of your own. If are going to claim that "why do women have to be involved in everything men do"="women aren't wanted" then you have to justify why you're putting words in someone else's mouth and visiting their meaning with your own, and you're going to have to argue why they meant something that their words don't mean at all.

Because right now, you really are just putting words in other people's mouths, and substituting their meaning for your subjective interpretation of their meaning. And as noted, subjective opinion can be dismissed as irrelevant by default, unless it's demonstrated to be not subjective. So go ahead, demonstrate for me why I should take your interpretation of their meaning over what the words they used actually mean. I'm listening, and waiting to be proven wrong.

Yes, people are arguing against you. Yes, your opinions are being criticised. Telling us that 'all we do is argue' doesn't address that criticism, it's nothing more than a whine against us exercising our right to criticise your opinion and call it out for the BS it is, UNLESS you can demonstrate that it's not BS.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#279 - 2015-02-10 03:41:15 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
listen, you can both argue that the phrase "why do women have to be involved in everything men do" and "go do something else" does not, in your minds mean that women are not wanted.


That's because it does not mean that in English - at least, when the entire post is read in context and those lines are not cherry-picked. Then again, you already admitted that you do not read posts completely before drawing conclusions from them.

Quote:
And that by your logic, women not being wanted has somehow nothing to do with women actually being here, but all you do is argue.


You haven't actually shown that. Even if that post meant what you want it to mean, that would be just one person.
Quote:

if you cannot spot the faults in your logic i cant help, sorry.


That's because I'm not making any. You don't seem to really understand common logical concepts.

Quote:
But then again, i do believe that disagreeing is your only goal and would even go to further logic extremes to achieve it.


It seems that you've simply adopted your own viewpoint so closely that you are simply assuming it must be logical just because it seems intuitively impossible to you that anything else could be the case. Therefore, anyone disagreeing with you must be making a logical error because your position is self-evidently true.

I've pointed out clear mistakes in your logic, to which you have not responded in accordance with any known logical concept. You admitted responding to a post you allegedly "have not read" despite quoting a line near the end of it. All you are doing is engaging in a circular argument of "there are few women in EVE because they are not wanted which we know because there are few women in EVE." It seems you are utterly impervious to requests to actually support your positions.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#280 - 2015-02-10 03:41:52 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
Kestral Anneto wrote:
What I don't understand is ... back-stabbing b@stards
tbh it just seems to me you want to argue about anything, no real opinion in any of them, only disagreement.
http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.