EVE General Discussion

Reading through this thread from start to end, one cannot but notice a decline from what passed like a proper conversation to more blatant finger pointing and namecalling towards the end. Which according to my earlier posts, is typical male-group behavior and in my opinion the main reason women keep their distance.

although its flattering to women to be fought over, men usually tend to take it too far and make things personal, thus forgetting what it was they fought about in the first place. women react to this typical male behaviour with an audible "MEH" and exit the scene alone, or with the guy smart enough to abstain from all the pointless bickering.

Its not a mystery why women dont take well to eve, when we cannot help ourselves to mitigate the urge to pointlessly compete, even in this very thread.

Well take this response for instance? Is this a genuine inquiry? Or are these questions and premises designed just to frame me into a position that you will subsequently attack?

For example "Or do you want to get rid of the people who actually want to have a rational discussion about this but whom you don't seem to like because some of us disagree with you?". The wording is strange. Not one proposition I put forward for me to defend; I'm also told I don't "like" people that don't agree with me, and that some of "us". Liking (and moreso disliking) people takes energy. More energy than I'm willing to devote to someone I don't even know through general discussions posts. So on what point or points do I bring up that the "us'es" don't agreeing with me and cause me not to like them?

Anyone that has played any game with voice chat...EVER can agree that more often than not you will hear some pretty outrageous hateful stuff. Unless you actually ARE in fact playing Hello Kitty online.

Gaming is generally demonstrably hostile towards females in general just like many other facets of Nerd culture. When guys aren't hostile they run the risk of going too far in the other direction and just being desperate and creepy. EVE is hard but being in an environment where you may be treated unfairly based on things that have nothing to do with the game itself makes it just plain unattractive. Is this the point? Am I wrong about gaming and nerd culture's attitudes toward women?

Is it the point on there being fewer women gamers to begin with, making a woman that enjoys eve being a niche within a niche? Is this false? Is this the point of contention

Is it any of the other things I said that apparently? Or am I just being painted into a corner?

I said "this thread" because it is both difficult to have rational discussion when people aren't interested in one. How many people came to discuss the issue? How many came to vent the usual privilege denying and/or don't change my EVE rhetoric? Would a woman on the fence about diving into EVE look at this thread and some of the comments and in fact say, "This is what I want to do with MY freetime." You re-read the 12 pages. You tell me.

You know what's really interesting about this thread? You can replace pretty much any instance of "women/females/girls/feminists" and related terms with "Christians/fundamentalists/evangelicals" etc. and get basically the same message.

"There are not that many Christians playing the game"
"Evangelicals don't play the game because people constantly say nasty things about them."
"The game would be better with more fundamentalists because that would mean more players and more money."

You can even find that the same sorts of things are offensive! Sexual topics, foul language, nasty stereotyping about their particular groups...

And what's even better? You can find that going on in most groups in EVE - almost any corporation you join will think nothing of jokes about priests and little kids or talk about how religious people are supposedly ignorant redneck neckbeards and so forth. Try using the f-word for gay people or nasty language about females in BRAVE for example and you'll (rightly) fall afoul of the "stay Classy" rule, but you can take all the drive-by shots you want at Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, and unless it's REALLY over the top no one will say a word. This isn't to pick on BRAVE, either, that's basically the norm.

But wait.. there's more! Unlike Christians who basically never get on comms and start preaching at anyone that I've ever heard of in any EVE environment... feminists and even more egalitarian females will happily do so at any opportunity. Often for no apparent reason at all, and in some cases RIGHT AFTER behaving in just the way they complain about people stereotyping them. I've heard the same female talk about granting sexual favors to people and how she would make out with an alliance CEO at a real-life meetup and then shortly thereafter rail at the males for "viewing women as sex objects".

Feminism is pretty clearly not science. It certainly does not attempt to describe reality against falsifiable hypothesis based on observation. Indeed, rather than subject it's theories to scientific scrutiny it attempts to subject science to feminist scrutiny. Hmmm.. not at all unlike the protestations of Creationists.

Oh, and last but not least we get the demands that other women adhere to certain sexual mores adopted by the morality police:




Because remember folks, there's something wrong with women "using their wiles" if that's what they want to do, because some other woman said so. After all, it makes it "harder" and we can't have someone else's choices inconveniencing they morality police.

And just for the record, folks, I happen to BE a Christian, although not an evangelical, fundamentalist, nor creationist. It's funny how the more objectionable elements of Christianity have so much in common with Feminism - including the unwillingness to leave people alone to enjoy EVE.

More women don't play games like this, generally, because of the large number of immature and ridiculous players who will harass them after finding out they are a woman.

I've seen multiple occurrances where someone revealed themselves to be a woman, after which one or two guys started trying to "woo" her, if you call it that- a lot of the less socially apt people in a game like this will spring at the opportunity to talk to a girl, and will be way over the top in doing so.

People play games- guys and girls both play. The only reason you see a disparity is because of the number of socially inept and often quite rude guys who can't control themselves once they realize "oh man, a GIRL is playing EVE! I have to get to know EVERYTHING about her! Maybe she'll like me! HEY WHAT'S YOUR BRA SIZE"

Just have fun and play EVE- if you so happen to meet women playing, they're no different from the rest of the players- we're all just here to have fun and play with our spaceships- if you can't handle knowing women play without acting like a rabid animal, you're part of the problem.

Make your own thread, bible-basher. My mother is Catholic and my father is Muslim, and I have feck all interest in debating either of those topics with you. Go thump a book.

Why don't more women play Eve Online? <- this is the topic.

Also, get out Jenn. Being a black man from Texas doesn't entitle you to bury this topic in 20k words of you rambling on about how you dunked a fellow person of colour for protesting about being called a ****** in comms. I forwarded your comments to 3 first generation west indies ladies in their sixties - and they're packing their bags to come to Texas with their zimmers to beat you up, lad.

Answer, nothing.

But Sandwich trash?

Seeing that term made me realize the problem I have with these discussions. It's the "first world problems" thing. If telling someone to go make me a sandwich is now somehow 'offensive', western society has fallen into a deeper hole than I imagined. I'm the son of a man who got harassed by his towns authorities for daring to accidently bump into a white woman in 1955 (thankfully, I was born after this particular style of madness stopped). That's 'offensive'. Telling a female (who btw wouldn't have been able to VOTE 95 years ago) to go make a sandwich is a mild (and nonsensical) personal insult. If a person can't weather such mild insults, even repeatedly, they shouldn't be on the internet.

Just because a minority person feels something is racist does not mean that it actually is. Just because a female calls something misogynist, that is not necessarily the case.

All this results in is those terms morphing to mean whatever the speaker needs them to mean to drag the issue onto the character of their opponent and stifle discussion - you know, like what normally happens these days.

But without knowing all the details of the anecdote, having not been there ourselves, you and I will never know, hence diluting the anecdote to the status of irrelevance to begin with, where any anecdote should be.

So are you objecting to what he said because it's an anecdote, or because you feel that 'casual racism' is an invalid concept? It seems you've adjusted what you feel is the issue for no apparent reason.

This is one of the most important posts. It reveals a base motivation.

It isn't about fairness, it's about POWER. All of the social crusader hurf blurf is about that.

For an example close to me, The "N" word doesn't offend people as much as some folks let on (especially when people like me use it), it's when YOU use it that it becomes a problem. Because some people want to have a say over who says what, because certain melanin deficient people using that terrible horrible word is a reminder of a slavery that no living soul experienced...

Personally, I understand that words are nothing more than air flying out of someone's mouth. Screw what you say, it's about what you do.