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Distance from Sol to Eden?
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Dracones
Tarsis Inc
#21 - 2015-02-05 18:20:24 UTC
Sibius Aidon wrote:

The USS Voyager from Star Trek got lost 75,000+ light years from Earth. Different universe, same distance measurement. Im also fairly certain IRL we can observe 23,000 light years, so assuming the colonies of Sol were more advanced than us, they could have easily been able to tell where Sol, and how far.


23k light years is still in the Milky Way which is only 100k LY across. So yeah I'd think 23k LY wouldn't be hard to lock your position down. Stars have barely changed in 23k years so they'd look the same too.

Our view limit is going to be observing light from 13 billion-ish or so years ago, which is in a point of space that's now around 40+ billion light years away due to expansion. And while we don't know how big the universe is, the most conservative estimates say that it's probably at least 250 times larger than that.

I'd think finding reference points far out would be crazy hard. From Sol we have a view of the night that's basically "This thing 1 million light years away was how it looked and where it was 1 million years ago" and when you pop into another point in the cosmos you're basically looking out at points of light going back in history from a new perspective. So it's not like you can lock onto Distant Object A from Sol and then find that in your new location because even of it was in your light range it may not have even been born yet in your night sky.

Like say, the Milky Way is 13 billion years old and you wormhole out 30 billion years from Sol so it's still in your light range of view(a short jump by the universe's standards). You'd basically need to know what the Milky Way looked like at 3-ish billion years of age to recognize it and understand how far you are from it.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#22 - 2015-02-05 18:33:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Sibius Aidon wrote:
The USS Voyager from Star Trek got lost 75,000+ light years from Earth. Different universe, same distance measurement. Im also fairly certain IRL we can observe 23,000 light years, so assuming the colonies of Sol were more advanced than us, they could have easily been able to tell where Sol, and how far.

Observable Universe
tldr: "the edge of the observable universe (what we can actually see) at about 46–47 billion light-years away"

In practical terms terms though...
- our current ability to directly observe specific stars (with any fidelity) is limited within a few dozen to a hundred or so light years.
- our current ability to "measure" specific stars is limited to within our local cluster of galaxies.

Beyond this... specific objects (and even clusters of objects) get a little fuzzy.


Here is the issue with observing things in space though; the farther out you look, the further back in time you are seeing.

For example: The Pillars of Creation are one of the most famous parts of the Eagle Nebula... about 6000 light-years away. However... there is some evidence that suggests this part of the Nebula was destroyed by a supernova "quite recently."
Now... if this event happened 6000 years ago and we are just now seeing evidence of it... it means that for the last 6000 years we have been seeing something that does not even exist. A "ghost" if you will.
On the other hand... if this event has JUST happened then it will be another 6000 years before we see it. Unless we go there ourselves.


In the case of New Eden... the lore never mentioned how far away it was from the Milky Way and Sol system. All that was said was "none of the stars were familiar" and "it was on the other side of the universe."

If New Eden is a mere 5+ billion light years away (not an unreasonable distance as far as the universe is concerned)... it might not even exist from Earth's perspective (because the light from the cluster has not reached Earth yet). This works in reverse too and with all stars in general.


edit:
Another fun thing to consider is that wormholes are openings in space AND time... and crazy things can happen with that.

Some examples:
- you exit the wormhole (on the other side) before you even enter it.
- you exit the wormhole just as you enter it (like walking through a door).
- you exit the wormhole just as you enter it (from an outsider's perspective)... but you spend several hours, days, or even years inside it (ex. the movie "Contact")
- you enter the wormhole and there is a delay when you exit it (this is the behavior most used by TV and movies).
- some combination of the above.

For all we know... the people who originally entered New Eden could have been going backward or forward in time!! The year on Earth could easily be either 1997 or 47590. Shocked

How did you Veterans start?
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#23 - 2015-02-05 22:03:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
ShahFluffers wrote:
..........

For all we know... the people who originally entered New Eden could have been going backward or forward in time!! The year on Earth could easily be either 1997 or 47590. Shocked

If you do a "get info" on stars, you will see some are quite old, like over 40 billion years. That is quite hard to have in a 13.7 billion year old universe. I thought this was a hidden part of cannon, and wrote it up that way as part of one of the abstracts I wrote for Site One in Eram. That is, the stars are old the New Eden wormhole traversed 30+ billion years along with an unknown amount of space, and our pilots are actually in the far, far future. It was rejected by CCP Dorpbear. He said he was uncomfortable making that large a change in the lore.

Which means it was a change, we are not in the far, far future.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-02-05 22:43:33 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
..........

For all we know... the people who originally entered New Eden could have been going backward or forward in time!! The year on Earth could easily be either 1997 or 47590. Shocked

If you do a "get info" on stars, you will see some are quite old, like over 40 billion years. That is quite hard to have in a 13.7 billion year old universe. I thought this was a hidden part of cannon, and wrote it up that way as part of one of the abstracts I wrote for Site One in Eram. That is, the stars are old the New Eden wormhole traversed 30+ billion years along with an unknown amount of space, and our pilots are actually in the far, far future. It was rejected by CCP Dorpbear. He said he was uncomfortable making that large a change in the lore.

Which means it was a change, we are not in the far, far future.


Alternatively the universe could only be a few billion years old in New Eden, considering that the cluster is so dense. (20 stars within 5 LY of eachother) Basically, space hasn't been expanding long enough to create vast distances between objects.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#25 - 2015-02-05 22:56:35 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Sibius Aidon wrote:
The USS Voyager from Star Trek got lost 75,000+ light years from Earth. Different universe, same distance measurement. Im also fairly certain IRL we can observe 23,000 light years, so assuming the colonies of Sol were more advanced than us, they could have easily been able to tell where Sol, and how far.

Observable Universe
tldr: "the edge of the observable universe (what we can actually see) at about 46–47 billion light-years away"

In practical terms terms though...
- our current ability to directly observe specific stars (with any fidelity) is limited within a few dozen to a hundred or so light years.
- our current ability to "measure" specific stars is limited to within our local cluster of galaxies.

Beyond this... specific objects (and even clusters of objects) get a little fuzzy.


Here is the issue with observing things in space though; the farther out you look, the further back in time you are seeing.

For example: The Pillars of Creation are one of the most famous parts of the Eagle Nebula... about 6000 light-years away. However... there is some evidence that suggests this part of the Nebula was destroyed by a supernova "quite recently."
Now... if this event happened 6000 years ago and we are just now seeing evidence of it... it means that for the last 6000 years we have been seeing something that does not even exist. A "ghost" if you will.
On the other hand... if this event has JUST happened then it will be another 6000 years before we see it. Unless we go there ourselves.


In the case of New Eden... the lore never mentioned how far away it was from the Milky Way and Sol system. All that was said was "none of the stars were familiar" and "it was on the other side of the universe."

If New Eden is a mere 5+ billion light years away (not an unreasonable distance as far as the universe is concerned)... it might not even exist from Earth's perspective (because the light from the cluster has not reached Earth yet). This works in reverse too and with all stars in general.


edit:
Another fun thing to consider is that wormholes are openings in space AND time... and crazy things can happen with that.

Some examples:
- you exit the wormhole (on the other side) before you even enter it.
- you exit the wormhole just as you enter it (like walking through a door).
- you exit the wormhole just as you enter it (from an outsider's perspective)... but you spend several hours, days, or even years inside it (ex. the movie "Contact")
- you enter the wormhole and there is a delay when you exit it (this is the behavior most used by TV and movies).
- some combination of the above.

For all we know... the people who originally entered New Eden could have been going backward or forward in time!! The year on Earth could easily be either 1997 or 47590. Shocked





Man I just love this stuff.


This is why if we ever get to the stars it won't have anything to do with speed. It will take a "Dimensional Drive" of sorts, moving the ship into another dimension whereby a short distance travelled in that dimension translates into a longer distance in the original.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
#26 - 2015-02-05 23:21:14 UTC
I don't care how far it is, just point me in the right direction. I'll get a cap stable inty with mwd and burn there!

No good deed goes unpunished
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#27 - 2015-02-06 00:50:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Vincent Athena wrote:
If you do a "get info" on stars, you will see some are quite old, like over 40 billion years. That is quite hard to have in a 13.7 billion year old universe. I thought this was a hidden part of cannon, and wrote it up that way as part of one of the abstracts I wrote for Site One in Eram. That is, the stars are old the New Eden wormhole traversed 30+ billion years along with an unknown amount of space, and our pilots are actually in the far, far future. It was rejected by CCP Dorpbear. He said he was uncomfortable making that large a change in the lore.

Which means it was a change, we are not in the far, far future.

I think there are some things in the game you kinda have to take with a grain of salt or ignore outright. Spaceship movements are one... the ages of stars in the game are another... and the mass of certain objects (like stations and stargates) grossly exceed the estimated mass of some stars or even black holes. Shocked (so people can't bump them away from their coordinates)

From what I understand... CCP just set up some basic algorithmic parameters for star stats and let the Random Number Generator do the rest of the work.

Lugia3 wrote:
Alternatively the universe could only be a few billion years old in New Eden, considering that the cluster is so dense. (20 stars within 5 LY of eachother) Basically, space hasn't been expanding long enough to create vast distances between objects.

Interestingly... there are clusters of stars in Real Life more densely packed than New Eden is.

NGC 3603 has over 10,000 stars packed into an area 3 light-years in diameter.

The Arches Cluster has about 150 stars in a space about 2 light-years in diameter.

Messier 13 "is composed of several hundred thousand stars" within an area 145 light-years in diameter (that means it has upwards of ~600 to ~2000 stars per light year Shocked )

In comparison... the closest star systems to Earth are
- the triple star system Alpha Centauri at ~4 light-years away
- Bernard's Star at ~6 light-years away

Beyond that, other stars are a minimum distance of 10 light-years or more. The Sol system is, galactically speaking, in the "boonies."

How did you Veterans start?
Kousaka Otsu Shigure
#28 - 2015-02-06 01:43:32 UTC
*points and laughs at every gud poster*
You nerds! Ha ha!

Archiver, Software Developer and Data Slave

Current Project Status: What can I make with these minerals?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#29 - 2015-02-06 01:57:27 UTC
*strokes his 10 inch refractor*

I apologize for nothing!

How did you Veterans start?
Darren Airtex
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2015-02-06 02:32:41 UTC
Your all mistaken, the wormhole that lead to New Eden was a loop that upon reaching the maximum traversable distance from itself passes through the time space barrier and ended on a different plain of existence from where it started at the point where it started.. So, in reality the original travelers through the wormhole never left SOL they only were move to a different plain of existence.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2015-02-06 06:45:13 UTC
The first "intentionally and directed transmission into space originated in 1974 from the Arecibo observatory. Radio transmissions started around 1900 (in significant intensity)

AD 1974 to Eve Timeline (start AD 2730: 756 years (lightyears traveldistance)

Now if we look at the EVE timeline:

Forgotten Age (AD 2730 - AD 8100) : 5370 years
The Dark Ages (AD 8100 - AD 16262): 8162 years
Age of Expansion (AD 16262 - 23236 - YC 100): 7074 years
Empyrean Age (YC 105 - Present): 5+10 years

So the first transmission with light speed from earth would have travelled 21377 years...ergo 21377 lightyears of minimum distance between Earth and New Eden cluster.
Due to the inverse-square law it is highly doubtable that we would even recognice any terrestrial transmission in that distance though....(same thing goes for extraterrestrial messages on earth, hence the lack of it).
We would probably need an antenna the size of a planet....

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
VTyx Soul
Station Window Lickers
#32 - 2015-02-06 07:09:06 UTC
Darren Airtex wrote:
Your all mistaken, the wormhole that lead to New Eden was a loop that upon reaching the maximum traversable distance from itself passes through the time space barrier and ended on a different plain of existence from where it started at the point where it started.. So, in reality the original travelers through the wormhole never left SOL they only were move to a different plain of existence.


Different plain of existence..... Your lack of science hurts
John Wolfsson
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-02-06 09:04:16 UTC
Quote:
We would probably need an antenna the size of a planet....


uhm jovian listening posts ? , okay they are not planet sized, but ... :)
Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#34 - 2015-02-06 09:21:31 UTC
John Wolfsson wrote:
Quote:
We would probably need an antenna the size of a planet....


uhm jovian listening posts ? , okay they are not planet sized, but ... :)


Interferometry! All the Jovian Listening posts are linked together, creating a receiving array the size of the New Eden cluster!

Providing a new home for refugees in the Aurora Arcology
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2015-02-06 09:23:02 UTC
John Wolfsson wrote:
Quote:
We would probably need an antenna the size of a planet....


uhm jovian listening posts ? , okay they are not planet sized, but ... :)

well, an antenna array spun over several light years could do some magic...

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#36 - 2015-02-06 14:53:29 UTC
Darren Airtex wrote:
...move to a different plain of existence.


Ze plain! Ze plain!
Danko1978
Perkone
Caldari State
#37 - 2015-02-07 02:41:33 UTC
The nerd inside of me hi freaking out ... hehehe

Excellent discussion...
Sylveria Relden
#38 - 2015-02-07 04:31:40 UTC
42

Isn't that the answer to everything? :P

TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#39 - 2015-02-07 05:10:08 UTC
Darren Airtex wrote:
Your all mistaken, the wormhole that lead to New Eden was a loop that upon reaching the maximum traversable distance from itself passes through the time space barrier and ended on a different plain of existence from where it started at the point where it started.. So, in reality the original travelers through the wormhole never left SOL they only were move to a different plain of existence.

The EVE Gate was actually found in the Canopus star system, interestingly enough P

"A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#40 - 2015-02-07 05:13:53 UTC
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