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The Art of bumping and hyperdunking

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May Burke
Greene Logistics Service
Greene Group
#21 - 2015-02-03 20:20:47 UTC  |  Edited by: May Burke
dafe4dc wrote:
CCP you need to look at this because its this kind of thing that breaks eve, and in the long run, could collapse the economy if the haulers just stand up and say no more hauling, and enough is enough.


My subscription will lapse until CCP decides to do something about this. I will not put billions of isk at risk just to have it blown out of the sky in a few seconds.

We have zero tank, zero midslots, we have to use cargo expanders to get any sort of cargo space so there goes the low slots. No rigs no defenses. Doesnt surprise me that every day there are scores of freighter losses, its contents, and any collateral involved. And what are the ones that are taking us down losing? A few mil in destroyers. What are they gaining? Whatever drops out of our pinata.

Nowhere in eve is safe, but high sec shouldnt be just as dangerous as lowsec as far as losses go.

Sure, lets all switch over to jump freighters and all move through lowsec instead of high sec. Lets triple the cost of shipment due to smaller cargo space. That will help offset the fuel cost that I will incur to travel over lowsec and help line MY pockets instead of CODE who are essentially GOONS.

At least they wont be able to sit at a HS gate all day with their thumb up their asses waiting for freighters to come through and simply blow them up. Plus they might have to actually go find real PVP...
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#22 - 2015-02-03 20:33:48 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Avoiding being bumped is as simple as having someone web you to warp. There is very little chance of being bumped if your freighter is properly escorted. This is not a single player game, you can't expect to be able to move your expensive defenseless freighter without an escort.

Hyperdunking only works under a very specific set of circumstances. Everyone who doesn't understand how it works thinks it will be a new trend but it is very tedious and easily thwarted so don't expect it to catch on in any sort of significant way.

Also, LOL at adding damage to bumping, if they did do that it would be used against you in hilarious ways and the result would be more tears than it stopped.


escort does not help anything if someone want to kill your freighter.
Paranoid Loyd
#23 - 2015-02-03 20:41:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Bad Messenger wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Avoiding being bumped is as simple as having someone web you to warp. There is very little chance of being bumped if your freighter is properly escorted. This is not a single player game, you can't expect to be able to move your expensive defenseless freighter without an escort.

Hyperdunking only works under a very specific set of circumstances. Everyone who doesn't understand how it works thinks it will be a new trend but it is very tedious and easily thwarted so don't expect it to catch on in any sort of significant way.

Also, LOL at adding damage to bumping, if they did do that it would be used against you in hilarious ways and the result would be more tears than it stopped.


escort does not help anything if someone want to kill your freighter.

Yes it does. I'm not talking about an armed escort. Read the first sentence.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Paranoid Loyd
#24 - 2015-02-03 20:56:38 UTC
Miranda Ka wrote:
Adding to my previos response and pointing out a problem in the following reasoning:

Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Avoiding being bumped is as simple as having someone web you to warp. There is very little chance of being bumped if your freighter is properly escorted. This is not a single player game, you can't expect to be able to move your expensive defenseless freighter without an escort.


Even if you take out the killing part of bumper/freighter from the equation, the situation is still in favor of the bumpers:

-A single bumper can hold a freighter indefinitely
-It requires team effort (either multiple people killing the bumper or a second person webbing the freighter) to escape bumping

Where's the team effort in bumping here?

Your argument is comprable to the AFK cloaking argument.

Why does it matter if there is a person AFK cloaking? He can't do anything of consequence.

Why does it matter if you are being bumped with no intention of being ganked? The bumper is not doing anything of consequence.

For either of these to have consequence additional characters are required.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Miranda Ka
Push Industries
Push Interstellar Network
#25 - 2015-02-03 21:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Miranda Ka
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Your argument is comprable to the AFK cloaking argument.

Why does it matter if there is a person AFK cloaking? He can't do anything of consequence.

Why does it matter if you are being bumped with no intention of being ganked? The bumper is not doing anything of consequence.

For either of these to have consequence additional characters are required.

Sorry but no, just no. You're comparison doesn't work:
-AFK cloaking is completely passive and not interfering with other people (it can be used to gather intelligence or for probing, both of those don't affect other ships physically)
-If you're getting bumped in a freighter, you're stuck, you can't escape, you're a sitting duck. This is pretty much equivalent to being warp scrambled (except for the bumper not triggering agression flags)
Miranda Ka
Push Industries
Push Interstellar Network
#26 - 2015-02-03 21:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Miranda Ka
Here's a crazy idea:
What if CCP made webbing a non-offensive action? Maybe incurring a suspect flag to balance it out a bit.

Think about it: It would be a way to fight off/incapacitate a bumper (but the bumper would be allowed to retaliate) with another single pilot

There's probably a whole load of issues that I haven't thought about yet, but it seems like a solution that could be implemented without too much work on CCPs side and with predictable results.

EDIT/addition:
Since webbing doesn't prevent you from warping away, someone getting webbed involuntarily could still escape relatively easily.
Kaelynne Rose
WTB Somalians
#27 - 2015-02-03 21:12:53 UTC
Guys none of this matters. Even if u come up wit some awesome great balanced plan...... ccp programmers CANT CODE IT

They have even said dealing with bumping is impossible to code due to all the physicals and calculus and ability to abuse it.

Give it up, they couldnt fix it if they tried (which they have said over and over they aint gonna try and that bumpin is working as intended)
Miranda Ka
Push Industries
Push Interstellar Network
#28 - 2015-02-03 21:19:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Miranda Ka
Kaelynne Rose wrote:
Guys none of this matters. Even if u come up wit some awesome great balanced plan...... ccp programmers CANT CODE IT

They have even said dealing with bumping is impossible to code due to all the physicals and calculus and ability to abuse it.

Give it up, they couldnt fix it if they tried (which they have said over and over they aint gonna try and that bumpin is working as intended)

I'm hoping you wrote up your post before reading my previous post (#26).
The solution proposed there would NOT require fiddling with bumping physics but would be a rather simple adjustment of making webbing cause a suspect flag instead of the weapon timer.
Seeing as the crimewatch system has been re-written from ground up just recently, it's reasonable to assume that a change like this should be rather easy to implement.
Paranoid Loyd
#29 - 2015-02-03 22:50:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Miranda Ka wrote:
Sorry but no, just no. You're comparison doesn't work:
-AFK cloaking is completely passive and not interfering with other people (it can be used to gather intelligence or for probing, both of those don't affect other ships physically)
-If you're getting bumped in a freighter, you're stuck, you can't escape, you're a sitting duck. This is pretty much equivalent to being warp scrambled (except for the bumper not triggering agression flags)


The point is there is no danger to being a sitting duck if there are no additional players to gank you and as such your argument is pointless. You being annoyed or inconvenienced is not a consequence.

No one is going to bump you indefinitely, this is a game and boredom is a factor to be considered. Sure they might bump you for a while trying to get ransom out of you but if you just ignore them they will go away in less time than you have lead people to believe. If you sit there and cry about it, that is a totally different story as your tears are providing them content.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
botcher0
WYNX Industries
#30 - 2015-02-03 23:32:40 UTC
Kaelynne Rose wrote:
Guys none of this matters. Even if u come up wit some awesome great balanced plan...... ccp programmers CANT CODE IT

They have even said dealing with bumping is impossible to code due to all the physicals and calculus and ability to abuse it.

Give it up, they couldnt fix it if they tried (which they have said over and over they aint gonna try and that bumpin is working as intended)


Then throw away the bumping as a whole. Its just an annoying mechanic, completely useless except for gankers. But a pain in the ass for anyone else who tries to fly through on a tightly populated POS, Belt, Missionsite etc..
And: everyone warps through Stations and Planets anyway.



BTW: I would love to see Jita as a 0.4 System. Twisted
Miranda Ka
Push Industries
Push Interstellar Network
#31 - 2015-02-04 01:09:20 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
The point is there is no danger to being a sitting duck if there are no additional players to gank you and as such your argument is pointless. You being annoyed or inconvenienced is not a consequence.

No one is going to bump you indefinitely, this is a game and boredom is a factor to be considered. Sure they might bump you for a while trying to get ransom out of you but if you just ignore them they will go away in less time than you have lead people to believe. If you sit there and cry about it, that is a totally different story as your tears are providing them content.

By that logic, any modules that just "inconvenience" the target should be allowed in highsec. That would include webifiers, warp scramblers, ECMs, target painters, sensor dampeners, tracking disruptors, ...
You see where I'm going with this? CCP decided that those modules are counted as offensive and will trigger agression flags.
So why should bumping be an exception when the behaviour is basically the same as warp scrambling?

As suggested in post #26, one solution would be to allow some of those modules to be used in highsec without triggering agression flags. This would level the playfield and give everyone a fair chance. Getting bumped by a Mach? Get a friend to web the Mach and you can warp away. Sounds fair, no?
Miranda Ka
Push Industries
Push Interstellar Network
#32 - 2015-02-04 01:31:38 UTC
botcher0 wrote:
Then throw away the bumping as a whole. Its just an annoying mechanic, completely useless except for gankers. But a pain in the ass for anyone else who tries to fly through on a tightly populated POS, Belt, Missionsite etc..
And: everyone warps through Stations and Planets anyway.

This is actually a good idea too. Having collisions with static objects (stations, asteroids, gates, ...) is meaningful because you have to navigate around them. For ship - ship interaction, there's only a few scenarios where collisions are meaningful:
-Bumping (which I consider a broken mechanic*)
-Decloaking
-Fleet positioning

* broken not because freighters are at a disadvantage. The physics of bumping (mass/size of ships and impulse/speed/energy) actually adds up pretty well.
The main issue I have with it is that there's a magic "bumping" shield that has enough force to repel a high-velocity impact (causing the ship to recoil), yet at the same time, it's too weak to repel some small projectiles/plasma/lasers without having to be recharged.
Also, how are humans in the ships supposed to survive those high-velocity impacts?** Running into a freighter with a Machariel and getting bumped back at several km/s is an insane amount of acceleration and would kill not only the regular crew (several 100 in case of the Machariel) but even a heavily protected pod pilot.

** The "acceleration" during warp is a whole different issue and I could spend some hours discussing the realism and effects of the warping procedure, but let's save that for another thread.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#33 - 2015-02-04 01:43:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Is this one of those 'high sec' threads?

Since this is the FW area, this needs moving to the high sec pvp area of the forum

EDIT: also, why is bumping a problem? just extract back to your high sec jump off cyno alt.
Miranda Ka
Push Industries
Push Interstellar Network
#34 - 2015-02-04 01:51:28 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Is this one of those 'high sec' threads?

Since this is the FW area, this needs moving to the high sec pvp area of the forum

EDIT: also, why is bumping a problem? just extract back to your high sec jump off cyno alt.

Probably just trying to educate a troll but here i go:
-The "Warfare & Tactics" subforum is for any kind of PvP, not just FW or lowsec. Only thing you could argue is whether the thread belongs to the "Crime & Punishment" subforum, but there's always some overlap. Considering that bumping is a player-vs-player situation, I'd say the thread is in the proper place.
-Regular freighters can't cyno-jump
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#35 - 2015-02-04 02:01:02 UTC
Miranda Ka wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Is this one of those 'high sec' threads?

Since this is the FW area, this needs moving to the high sec pvp area of the forum

EDIT: also, why is bumping a problem? just extract back to your high sec jump off cyno alt.

Probably just trying to educate a troll but here i go:
-The "Warfare & Tactics" subforum is for any kind of PvP, not just FW or lowsec. Only thing you could argue is whether the thread belongs to the "Crime & Punishment" subforum, but there's always some overlap. Considering that bumping is a player-vs-player situation, I'd say the thread is in the proper place.
-Regular freighters can't cyno-jump


I guess im falling for a troll but this is the faction warfare and tactics forum. And what use is a regular freighter in low sec faction war?
Shailagh
6Six6Six6Six
#36 - 2015-02-04 02:18:22 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Miranda Ka wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Is this one of those 'high sec' threads?

Since this is the FW area, this needs moving to the high sec pvp area of the forum

EDIT: also, why is bumping a problem? just extract back to your high sec jump off cyno alt.

Probably just trying to educate a troll but here i go:
-The "Warfare & Tactics" subforum is for any kind of PvP, not just FW or lowsec. Only thing you could argue is whether the thread belongs to the "Crime & Punishment" subforum, but there's always some overlap. Considering that bumping is a player-vs-player situation, I'd say the thread is in the proper place.
-Regular freighters can't cyno-jump


I guess im falling for a troll but this is the faction warfare and tactics forum. And what use is a regular freighter in low sec faction war?


There is no faction warfare forum idiot. This if the home of pvp, read the stickied thread.

U stupid beacon-orbiting-blobbing-plex-farming-blued up LOWBEAR

Lol@faction warfare, gtf 2 hisec where the leet pvp is brah
Degnar Oskold
Moira.
#37 - 2015-02-04 11:54:56 UTC
Looking at zkillboard, I've learned the following.

1) The amount of hyperdunking going on is extremely limited. There are virtually no non-wardec freighter kills than have less than 10 people on them in the past week.

2) Virtually all non-wardec hisec freighter ganks are going on in just 2 systems of 0.5 security, and a handful of ganks in 0.6.

3) Virtually all jump freighter ganks are on jump freighters that are not fitted for maximum tank.

======================================

If CCP really wanted to resolve the issue probably the simplest thing to do, rather than change any mechanic, would be to promote the sec status of systems between major trade hubs to have a corridor of 0.7+ all the way through.

However, I don't think the situation is bad enough to need that. It would be pandering to players who want to keep flying badly fit ships without webbing accompaniment.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2015-02-04 22:57:04 UTC
Red Frog Jita-Amarr: 10.5 Mil ISK

Cost of a freighter: 1.3 Bil ISK

Trips to break even: 120!


If you're flying a freighter in highsec:

1. You're a pro hauler and don't get ganked, or

2. You haul for fun and don't get ganked, or

3. You're a fool that deserves to die (in game, ofc)


If freighting in highsec was really so hard, rates would be higher and it would be a nice way to make ISK.

But it's not, so it's safe for an avg skilled player, so only very bad players die. Learn the game or don't fly a freighter.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Miranda Ka
Push Industries
Push Interstellar Network
#39 - 2015-02-05 00:47:26 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
If freighting in highsec was really so hard, rates would be higher and it would be a nice way to make ISK.

But it's not, so it's safe for an avg skilled player, so only very bad players die. Learn the game or don't fly a freighter.

Hauling rates have been steadily increasing in the past and the current trend of ganking will only contribute more to this. Obviously it's not gonna happen overnight because not every single freighter gets ganked all of a sudden, but there's a clear trend of even expired haulers (who have "learned the game" for years) loosing more ships to gankers than in the past, despite increased efforts to counteract ganks.
Paranoid Loyd
#40 - 2015-02-05 00:58:45 UTC
Miranda Ka wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
If freighting in highsec was really so hard, rates would be higher and it would be a nice way to make ISK.

But it's not, so it's safe for an avg skilled player, so only very bad players die. Learn the game or don't fly a freighter.

Hauling rates have been steadily increasing in the past and the current trend of ganking will only contribute more to this. Obviously it's not gonna happen overnight because not every single freighter gets ganked all of a sudden, but there's a clear trend of even expired haulers (who have "learned the game" for years) loosing more ships to gankers than in the past, despite increased efforts to counteract ganks.


Just because there is more propaganda and soap boxing does not mean the amount of ganking has increased. Can you produce numbers showing the increase or is this just your guess based on the influence of a bunch of whiners?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
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