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Latest CSM notes : Rumours of attribute points/implants being removed.

First post First post
Author
Deputy Glitter
Perkone
Caldari State
#421 - 2015-01-30 20:51:20 UTC
Hi, I'm a rather new player here (just over 3 months old), but I will say that EveOnline has been very refreshing in that their are options available to players, and there is risk involved in the game. Just a few observations on my part....

1) I think it is a good thing that there is risk involved with implants.
2) People need to have something to lose when they undock outside of simply losing a ship.
3) Skill attribute diversity is a good thing.

I do realize that point that some people make that there are some char's who stay docked with +5's until they reach some certain point.

Maybe the still implants should take a queue from the hardwirings and go from have 5 total (+1, +2, +3, +4, +5) to 3(+1, +2,+3) and give an innate +2 to base attribute numbers. This would reduce the disparity between have zero skill implants and having +5's.

And while I think that have skill attribute diversity is perfectly ok, if I browse through EveMon you can see a disperity between Mem/Int and Per/Will which have a lot of skills, and then there is Will/Int and Per/Mem with only one skill each. This could be something that CCP could look at.


TLDR: I've played waaaaay too many mmo's where the dev's just water stuff down and it ruins the immersion of the game. Change is fine, but gutting a system for "player convenience" isn't.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#422 - 2015-01-30 21:02:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Winter Archipelago
CCP Darwin wrote:

I'm not on the team that brought this question up with the CSM, but I do have a question for you.

If your practice, normally, is to spend, say, 50 million ISK for a pod full of implants today, why would that not be your practice tomorrow, if learning implants were to be removed?

Wouldn't you just spend your money on hardwirings instead, and maybe get an even larger edge in combat?

Or, is your concern that learning implants would be viewed by the average player as inherently more valuable than non-learning-implants, so their willingness to spend on their pod decreases?

I ask because it's not evident to me that making skill training speed independent of implants will somehow reduce the overall average value of a pod, or the average risk that a player is willing to take on its contents.


For myself, the ISK saved on not needing attribute implants would stay in my wallet. When PvP'ing in high-risk areas (nullsec and wormholes), I use a clone with a pair of +3 attribute implants, and in low-risk areas (lowsec and highsec) I use a pair of +4 implants, only ever for the current remap I'm on. The most I would ever save is 20-25m for the two +3's and 40-50m for the two +4's.

When I use combat implants, I go with the 3% implants. I feel they offer the best benefits for the ISK vs. Risk. Saving at most around 50m ISK isn't going to save me enough to move even a single 3% up to a 4%. While that 20m to 50m ISK would afford another combat implant or two, I already don't fly with those not because I can't afford them, but because they just don't provide enough of a benefit for me to consider being worth the ISK for that particular clone.

The biggest change would be that my training clone, if attribute implants were removed, could become another PvP clone. Fortunately, though, there are a few more clones that I can train for, and those skills are on the horizon (eventually), so even that's a minor concern.
Tibo Paralian
Ronin ONE
Ronins
#423 - 2015-01-30 21:03:10 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
CCP needs to remove learning implants and not replace them with anything. The truth is that leaning implants add nothing meaningful to the game, are a terrible choice to make, encourage risk adversity, and removing them from the game would actually improve Eve without dumbing Eve down.

Let's start with choices. Eve is not a game of choices. If you think Eve is a game of choices you are wrong. Eve is a game of meaningful choices. That is a huge distinction. A meaningful choice is choice that affects the Eve universe beyond yourself. For example the choice to fit an AB instead of an MWD is a meaningful choice. Your decision now is going to affect the fight you and others are going to have in a matter of minutes. You decisions during that fight are meaningful choices. What you do after that fight will likely be a series of meaningful choices.

Learning implants are not a meaningful choice. Take any situation: mining, PvP, PvE, market trading, etc. Place yourself in that situation with another person. Ask yourself these simple questions: Does that player having no learning implants affect this situation? What if they have a set of +1 implants? +5 implants? Under no circumstances does their decision to use learning implants affect your gameplay at all. Some of you are going to argue that if you podded said player with +5 implants you would feel good because you destroyed something of high value they had. You will miss the fact that it wasn't the learning implants that affected your gameplay, but the value of those implants. If we set the value to 0 they would have little to no effect at all. Learning implants are still not a meaningful choice.

Clone grades were a choice between losing isk or losing SP. That is a terrible choice to make. CCP rightly removed clone grades from the game because of the poor choice they presented, among other things. Learning implants are the exact same choice that was presented in clone grades: lose isk or lose SP. Imagine there was a third choice added. This third choice is a "no change" choice. So if I offered you the choice between losing your isk, losing your SP, and doing nothing and losing nothing. A majority of people would chose to lose nothing. That may seem a little extreme, but the point is that anytime where the choice of "do nothing and lose nothing" is the best choice it should be altered to not be the best choice. In fact the do nothing choice became the only option for clone grades and people rejoiced because a terrible choice was removed.

Learning implants encourage risk adversity. I have trained many pilots to PvP over the years. One of the biggest issues is that the players, who often don't have lots of isk, would rather stay in highsec where they can use their learning implants to gain skills quickly than PvP or do something where those implants would be at risk. People should be out enjoying the game, creating content for themselves and others. It isn't hard to see that removing learning implants will get more people out into space and doing things in space. One of the biggest arguments to removing clone grades, argued mainly by nullsec and lowsec PvPers, was that a 15+ mil isk clone was enough to get people to not fly small ships. It isn't hard to see why 40 mil isk in two +4 implants is discouraging PvP just as much as clone grades were.

Ask yourself: if learning implants were removed, and we were given a flat SP/hour that compensated for their removal, would Eve be better or worse off? I will argue that it would be better off. A meaningless and terrible choice is no longer present, more people are out doing risky activities while gaining the max SP/hour they can, and more content is generated. There are surprisingly minimal costs to removing learning implants. We lost a few LP store items. I am sure CCP can fix that. Other than that... it is all gains. (feel free to let me know if I missed costs.)

The bottom line is that Eve will be better off if learning implants are removed. I hope CCP can see that removing learning implants is really in the best interest of the game. I ask players that agree to speak to their CSM representatives and get them to urge CCP to remove learning implants.


After pages of minor insults and nonsense, this needs repeating.
Solops Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#424 - 2015-01-31 01:07:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Solops Crendraven
Tibo Paralian wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
CCP needs to remove learning implants and not replace them with anything. The truth is that leaning implants add nothing meaningful to the game, are a terrible choice to make, encourage risk adversity, and removing them from the game would actually improve Eve without dumbing Eve down.

Let's start with choices. Eve is not a game of choices. If you think Eve is a game of choices you are wrong. Eve is a game of meaningful choices. That is a huge distinction. A meaningful choice is choice that affects the Eve universe beyond yourself. For example the choice to fit an AB instead of an MWD is a meaningful choice. Your decision now is going to affect the fight you and others are going to have in a matter of minutes. You decisions during that fight are meaningful choices. What you do after that fight will likely be a series of meaningful choices.

Learning implants are not a meaningful choice. Take any situation: mining, PvP, PvE, market trading, etc. Place yourself in that situation with another person. Ask yourself these simple questions: Does that player having no learning implants affect this situation? What if they have a set of +1 implants? +5 implants? Under no circumstances does their decision to use learning implants affect your gameplay at all. Some of you are going to argue that if you podded said player with +5 implants you would feel good because you destroyed something of high value they had. You will miss the fact that it wasn't the learning implants that affected your gameplay, but the value of those implants. If we set the value to 0 they would have little to no effect at all. Learning implants are still not a meaningful choice.

Clone grades were a choice between losing isk or losing SP. That is a terrible choice to make. CCP rightly removed clone grades from the game because of the poor choice they presented, among other things. Learning implants are the exact same choice that was presented in clone grades: lose isk or lose SP. Imagine there was a third choice added. This third choice is a "no change" choice. So if I offered you the choice between losing your isk, losing your SP, and doing nothing and losing nothing. A majority of people would chose to lose nothing. That may seem a little extreme, but the point is that anytime where the choice of "do nothing and lose nothing" is the best choice it should be altered to not be the best choice. In fact the do nothing choice became the only option for clone grades and people rejoiced because a terrible choice was removed.

Learning implants encourage risk adversity. I have trained many pilots to PvP over the years. One of the biggest issues is that the players, who often don't have lots of isk, would rather stay in highsec where they can use their learning implants to gain skills quickly than PvP or do something where those implants would be at risk. People should be out enjoying the game, creating content for themselves and others. It isn't hard to see that removing learning implants will get more people out into space and doing things in space. One of the biggest arguments to removing clone grades, argued mainly by nullsec and lowsec PvPers, was that a 15+ mil isk clone was enough to get people to not fly small ships. It isn't hard to see why 40 mil isk in two +4 implants is discouraging PvP just as much as clone grades were.

Ask yourself: if learning implants were removed, and we were given a flat SP/hour that compensated for their removal, would Eve be better or worse off? I will argue that it would be better off. A meaningless and terrible choice is no longer present, more people are out doing risky activities while gaining the max SP/hour they can, and more content is generated. There are surprisingly minimal costs to removing learning implants. We lost a few LP store items. I am sure CCP can fix that. Other than that... it is all gains. (feel free to let me know if I missed costs.)

The bottom line is that Eve will be better off if learning implants are removed. I hope CCP can see that removing learning implants is really in the best interest of the game. I ask players that agree to speak to their CSM representatives and get them to urge CCP to remove learning implants.


After pages of minor insults and nonsense, this needs repeating.

However You Can still Pay for a Sisters of Eve air Drops! I mean Eve Online Icelandic Style. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIYyCaLercI#t=49

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#425 - 2015-01-31 01:20:45 UTC
Mehrune Khan wrote:


What the hell are you talking about?

First off, yes I actually have flown into a gatecamp before. "But gatecamps" isn't a just back-up excuse when it's something I've actually experienced. You're also trying to pigeonhole me into an argument about lowsec, when I was specifically mentioned both low and null. Also yes I have lost a pod in low as well. Navigating a right-click menu surprisingly becomes hard when your hands are shaking and your pulse is pounding in your ears like a sledgehammer. I suppose I could get used to it and perform better with more experience, but the whole point of this thread is: why would I try gaining more PvP experience with 50 mil of implants in my pod?


I fly around with 500 mil to a billion in implants in my head in fights with entire grids covered in bubbles. If you won't PvP because of a paltry 50 mil worth of implants then removing them will change nothing. You will think up another excuse to not PvP.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#426 - 2015-01-31 02:18:05 UTC
Solops Crendraven wrote:
I pay $100 or more a month to play this game
Quote:
Our first patient is SirLordex, an aluminium magnate of Russian extraction. His existence was only a rumor among the English-speaking population of EVE for many months; he was alleged to have bankrolled his own alliance, RED.OVERLORD, in a quest to seize the region of Feythabolis from its previous owner Goonswarm;
How many games do you know of where someone spends over $100,000 on spaceships and brags about it?

From here

I wonder how entitled he felt? P
Aliventi wrote:
Learning implants are not a meaningful choice. Take any situation: mining, ...
I would say that putting in a big fast Charisma implant for awhile to increase my ability to boost the miners was a rather meaningful choice.
Leannor wrote:
I hate to say it, but is this finally the americanisation effect? Dumbing it down so the mythical stupid can play it? If so, ... they're mythical. Don't dumb it down. If you do, you remove what attracted people to the game. The complexity of EVE is it's biggest virtue.
I need an over 9000!!! Like button.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#427 - 2015-01-31 03:11:54 UTC
Attribute points are stupid and really hard to explain to new players.

"What does willpower do?"

"Well! The formula for skill training is..."

:cripes:

I'd be happy to see attributes reworked into something meaningful (2% bonus to targeting speed per point in perception, 1% bonus to hitpoints of each type for every point of willpower, etc.).

Alternatively, trashing them is fine too. As for removing learning implants, I'm not sure that really reduces risk in undocking as it currently stands. Sensible people maintain implantless clones for combat, or run cheap implants they don't care about losing.

Personally, I'd rather remove attributes and implants completely, and rework boosters and combat implants so that people feel compelled fill their combat clones with implants under all circumstances rather then run them empty.

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer

Rift Tarkken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#428 - 2015-01-31 03:17:33 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Learning implants are awful. This is nothing to do with PvP risk - I routinely fly with mid-grade pirate sets. The problem is that they make you choose between learning efficiency and PvP efficiency, which has a flow-on effect of reducing PvP. They should be removed from the game entirely.


I disagree. You should have to make the choice. I'm interested in speed of learning so that's where I put my hard earned isk. It's all about choices. I don't believe that making a choice and choosing learning efficiency over PVP bonus's reduces PvP. It may make you clone jump to your PvP clone. But you can't have everything. If you want the bonus for learning, you don't get bonus for PvP and vise versa.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#429 - 2015-01-31 03:26:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

I fly around with 500 mil to a billion in implants in my head in fights with entire grids covered in bubbles. If you won't PvP because of a paltry 50 mil worth of implants then removing them will change nothing. You will think up another excuse to not PvP.

Or just maybe.....
Most of us aren't as crazy rich as you are, and 50 million is actually a significant amount of isk to us.

Most players do not generate hundreds of millions of isk per hour, or even a hundred million, especially the high sec players you continually abuse. Since not every single player runs at your perfect maximum optimisation for isk gathering that you love to scream about. Even running SOE missions I only turn 30 Mil/Hour typically because I'm not super fast at it and I'm not perfect at blitzing. And I don't have huge amounts of play time most weeks, so two hours worth of implants is actually a significant amount of my weekly playtime, on top of that ship I just lost.

Will some still not want to PvP and come up with excuses, sure. But it will make a significant difference to others.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#430 - 2015-01-31 03:36:56 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Most of us aren't as crazy rich as you are, and 50 million is actually a significant amount of isk to us.


Then they're flying with the barebones implants anyway, and those are pocket change to anybody.


Quote:

Most players do not generate hundreds of millions of isk per hour, or even a hundred million, especially the high sec players you continually abuse.


And? It's not like those people bother to PvP anyway unless someone brings it on them.

Implants should exist, they are a meaningful gameplay mechanic that has a distinct risk vs reward component, creating meaningful choices. I know you are all for literally anything that takes meaningful gameplay and consequences away from EVE, but this really isn't justifiable.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#431 - 2015-01-31 04:46:40 UTC
The attribute learning bonus should be tied into the average of your security status + (racial) state faction standing / 2 (rounded down, with 0 the lowest possible result). So a +5.0 security status and 10.0 faction standing would yield a maximum +7.0 attribute bonus.

Yeah, the evil and lawless take a hit... this chokes me up. Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Solops Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#432 - 2015-01-31 05:16:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Solops Crendraven
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Solops Crendraven wrote:
I pay $100 or more a month to play this game
Quote:
Our first patient is SirLordex, an aluminium magnate of Russian extraction. His existence was only a rumor among the English-speaking population of EVE for many months; he was alleged to have bankrolled his own alliance, RED.OVERLORD, in a quest to seize the region of Feythabolis from its previous owner Goonswarm;
How many games do you know of where someone spends over $100,000 on spaceships and brags about it?

From here

I wonder how entitled he felt? P
Aliventi wrote:
Learning implants are not a meaningful choice. Take any situation: mining, ...
I would say that putting in a big fast Charisma implant for awhile to increase my ability to boost the miners was a rather meaningful choice.
Leannor wrote:
I hate to say it, but is this finally the americanisation effect? Dumbing it down so the mythical stupid can play it? If so, ... they're mythical. Don't dumb it down. If you do, you remove what attracted people to the game. The complexity of EVE is it's biggest virtue.
I need an over 9000!!! Like button.
i would've Invested in real state instead.
what a waste of money.
Im a idiot for just spending $100 a month.
thats not including Spaceships and implants
However I like the game so it dosnt really matter
Im Just busting balls
ill be just like that russian bragging about the millions I threw away playing video games 10 years from now.

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here

Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#433 - 2015-01-31 05:30:36 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
The attribute learning bonus should be tied into the average of your security status + (racial) state faction standing / 2 (rounded down, with 0 the lowest possible result). So a +5.0 security status and 10.0 faction standing would yield a maximum +7.0 attribute bonus.

Yeah, the evil and lawless take a hit... this chokes me up. Twisted

Be serious.
Memphis Baas
#434 - 2015-01-31 13:43:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
baltec1 wrote:
I fly around with 500 mil to a billion in implants in my head in fights with entire grids covered in bubbles. If you won't PvP because of a paltry 50 mil worth of implants then removing them will change nothing. You will think up another excuse to not PvP.


OMG you're so elite and we're such pubbies; we don't even know wtf we will do even though you have clearly spelled out the future for us, multiple times too.

I think CCP should remove the implants, then roll back the server 24 hours later, with patch notes that say "Baltec1 told you fucks that you wouldn't undock, and you didn't; now post your ****** excuses in the comments thread and then stfu, you useless pubs."
M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#435 - 2015-01-31 13:58:27 UTC
So much **** posting in this thread.

My take: scrap leaning implants, scrap attributes. They do nothing positive for this game, and it gives those who avoid PVP and avoid leaving highsec* a skill training advantage.


*Yes you can get podded in highsec. But the disparity in risk of being podded in highsec vs being podded in nullsec is massive.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Josef Djugashvilis
#436 - 2015-01-31 13:59:20 UTC
Right now, as the game is, no one is forced to use any implants, training or otherwise, to remove the option to do so, would simply remove player options for no good reason.

This is not a signature.

Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#437 - 2015-01-31 14:20:32 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Right now, as the game is, no one is forced to use any implants, training or otherwise, to remove the option to do so, would simply remove player options for no good reason.


Perfect engineering is found not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away.

There needs to be a compelling gameplay reason to keep attributes and implants.

They aren't fun (They're pretty neutral on the fun scale, they aren't unfun either, they're just a thing)
They aren't providing meaningful choices (you always use the best implants you can afford, and you use estel arador to **** out enough JC's that you never have to choose between PvP and not risking your implants, everyone who cares uses evemon to map out year long skill queues and then remaps their attributes to optimise, everyone else sets a happy medium and forgets about it)
They aren't marketing the game to external audiences (external audiences don't pay attention to minutia like that)
They don't make the game easier for new players (see my earlier comment about formulas)

The strongest argument you could make is that they add flavor to the universe, but since we aren't talking about scrapping all implants, only learning implants and associated attributes, that's pretty weaksauce as an argument, and hardly a compelling gameplay reason to keep them.

Shitting up the games features for the sake of having a long feature list is not and has never been the mark of a quality product. Refactor them or chuck them, this has been a long time coming.

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer

Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#438 - 2015-01-31 14:43:15 UTC
Sir Substance wrote:
There needs to be a compelling gameplay reason to keep attributes and implants.


They add choices and consequences. And EVE has no other gameplay than choices and consequences.


Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#439 - 2015-01-31 16:08:06 UTC
My personal viewpoint is that learning implants and attribute points are fine as they and should not be iterated.

If learning implants and attribute points are going to be removed then I would go with removing those five implant slots as well. Otherwise we will end up being charged double the ISK for what we can achieve with hardwiring now. Or ship bonus stats will be reduced to compensate for additional slots available for hardwirings.

Divert the man hours to do more necessary work like fixing Corp/Alliance Roles & Permissions or Null-sec sovereignty. Or in other words fix broken elements of the game and not parts of the game that work as intended. My standard reply but it works. Smile
StuckReporter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#440 - 2015-01-31 17:00:09 UTC
First, both implants and attributes could use a pass to make them more interesting and integral to gameplay. Perhaps this is more variation in implants and having attributes impact the performance of various modules in some small way. Take the tact of introducing more touch choices and complexity rather than striving to completely eliminate mechanics which are underperforming.

Game mechanics which offer a choice between buffing short-term performance OR long-term progression are an in-game reflection of the 'immediate gratification' vs. 'delayed benefit' decisions which are prolific in our world. Having such choices available in EVE help separate it from the crowd and allow varied styles of gameplay based on how the player chooses to operate in the EVE sandbox.

'Attributes' and similar mechanics drive depth and engagement. Used effectively, they reward forethought and planning by shaping your in-game persona in a meaningful fashion to reach your desired role. EVE could use some improvement here (more depth!), but the basic mechanic itself is sound: Our EVE player base isn't 'one size fits all' and the game needs to reflect that.

Removing such mechanics would be a sad day for EVE; One more step on the path to a simpleton's one-button-wonder environment little depth or meaningful complexity. Too many folks seem to want the best of everything IMMEDIATELY and don't want any downside for their short-term planning and perspective. EVE isn't Battlefield4 in-space where you just login and punch a couple buttons to 'win'. You have to think and plan a bit, growing with the game and evolving into a lethal killer if that's your goal. This may not suit all the console-kiddie's 'don't make me think' mentality, but it is the core of EVE and has been since inception.

Again, implants and attributes need a pass to make them even more meaningful; There's no doubt that they could use improvement. But both contribute to an gameplay element of EVE that many folks do consider 'fun': planning out your path and evolving your character over time to best fit your own vision of what's enjoyable in the EVE sandbox universe.

The bottom line is that, you DO NOT have to change your attributes and you DO NOT have to use implants in order to play EVE. These are elements that add depth of gameplay for those who choose to leverage them; Something EVE should be expanding on rather than eliminating.

Respectfully,

SR