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Fix for Ishtars online
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Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#81 - 2015-01-30 14:37:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Anhenka wrote:
Impossible, Gila is so bad for most things you might as well take offense at the hurricane.


Then please explain why almost every match in AT XII had Gilas either picked or banned.

As for Ishtars, the solution is simple. Sentry drons merely need to be made different than heavy drones. The only differences are in how they are used, and nothing when it comes to fitting. As far as bandwidth and volume, they are identical to heavy drones.

If their bandwidth were bumped up, the same ships would not be able to use as many. Skills limit one to 5 drones anyway. A ship like the Dominix or carriers could have a larger allotment of bandwidth to accommodate the requirement, while the Ishtar could not.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Pravius
The Bleak Lands Syndicate
#82 - 2015-01-30 14:58:12 UTC
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
Ah 2400m/s without links etc. Those ships are easily caught by those 6000m/s navy omen in their usual pvp fit. Everything ofc without overheating or links. And the capacitor is big enough to cycle mwd indefinitely AND use energy neut at the same time. Noone needs cap rechargers. See? I can pull out stupid numbers too. Doesnt make it true


i cant believe i didnt think of this.... what a genius idea MWD directly at the isthars is cruiser sized hulll.... do you eve play the game?
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#83 - 2015-01-30 15:13:46 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
It's been said before and I still think it's the best option:

Reduce Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20 M/bits/s

Reduce Offending ships drone bandwidth to 100 Mbits/s

Ishtar/VNI can only field 4 sentries then (20% dps nerf) but can still field 5 heavies if they want.

Myrm gets a brawling buff so may need a rebalance.

Remove Carrier ability to use sentry drones and introduce a new fighter type called "Lancer Fighters". Lancer fighters orbit the carrier very slowly and have Sniper weapons fitted. Would obviously struggle to track anything smaller than a BS but would leave the "Slow Cat" ability intact somewhat.


Your suggestions don't fix the underlying problems. The problem with the ishtar is that it drops sentries and runs out of combat range and still does damage. It can kill you, but you can't kill it is the problem. It can kill you 20% slower and you can't kill it doesn't fix the problem it just reduces incoming damage by 20%. When I say ishtar, I mean all cruises. Just make the sentry drone a BS and up thing.

You crap lance fighter ideas is crap too. Face it, archons assigning sentries is game breaking. Get rid of it. Don't half get rid of it w/ the 'lancer garbage fighter pacification drone'. The tactic sux, so take it away. Keep assignment of fighters and fighter bombers. Thats cool. Get rid of the ability to assign sentries and other normal drones.

Ok the 20 mbit bandwidth thing is worth considering. However, it would be a 20% nerf to Ishtar dps. Maybe something could be done to compensate turret dps in return on the hull. It would leave BS the next option. People would just continue to complain about sentries in them then. But see below ->

The Lancer idea seems possibly a pain to code? And Carriers will be more affected by the change in this post, below ->

Why not just remove the ability to assign drones and fighters totally? CCP recently put some limits on it. But what is the concern that prevents a total removal of assigning drones? It would seem to solve many perceived problems. Oh I'm sure the gate camping pvp and the nullsec pve farming assigned fighter crowds will be miffed. But frankly they have so many options other than assigned fighters, they lived before the current meta, and will live when it's removed as well.

As for Seredipity's Ishtar critique, it seems to be the age old nano vexation. Find a way to chase the Ishtars down, they are not the speediest things, or CCP could nerf the speed a little more (another 5 or 10 again) if you think they are. But if drones can't be assigned then the flitting about ball of ishtars are left trying to coordinate their targeting, tracking and volleying (and needed gun dps with the drone dps/alpha nerf of the no more assignment change) just like any other ship.

It would be a nerf that doesn't **** over the hull, but simply gets rid of the unintended consequences of a ******** game mechanic specific to all drones. This could be combined with the bandwidth change to specifically hit the current Ishtar meta. Heavy drones suck ass. But one could probably live with 4 sentries if some gunnery damage partially compensated.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2015-01-30 15:27:16 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Impossible, Gila is so bad for most things you might as well take offense at the hurricane.


Then please explain why almost every match in AT XII had Gilas either picked or banned.


Not empty quoting.

Those things are MONSTERS. 75+ lowest resist, significant buffer, over 800 dps.

Yup, terrible Roll
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#85 - 2015-01-30 15:37:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
pwlngs wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Broken record here so I am just going to start a copy and paste into all the nerf Ishtar threads I can find.

-1

Again with the nerf Ishtar / sentry drone combination. Why is it that everyone misses the most logical first step in balancing this combination and jumps immediately to the nerfs instead?

Based on reading online the most common complaint with Ishtar / sentry combination is the ability to set them to aggressive mode which allows them to attack without the pilot needing a target lock or to set them to assist another ship in which case the Ishtar becomes nothing but a transport mechanism either of these allows them to drop and run away and hide.

While nerfs to damage, control range, bandwidth and various other ideas would solve the problme for the PvP crowd it would have an even larger and un-intended affect on the usefulness of the Ishtar for PvE. We don't care about PvE you say and my response is you should, this is a game that is played by many different types of players and we all have to share the same ships and equipment and the needs of ALL segments of the game need to be considered in any balance adjustment that is made.

As this applies to the Ishtar / sentry combination why start with the nerf bat big time when a simple change to drone use mechanics may solve the problem for the PvP crowd yet have minimal impact on the PvE crowd.
Just one such idea is to remove the aggressive mode and the ability to assign drones to assist another ship, so what does this do for the situation.
1. It requires the drones pilot to have a target lock to be able to shoot anything.
2. It prevents them from dropping drones and running away like a scared baby.
3. It makes drones ships just as susceptible to EWAR as most other ships.
4. It would have minimal affect on the use of this combination in the PvE segment of the game.

So I say give these simply fixes that have minimal impact on the PvE side of the game a try first. When they are tried and IF they do not solve the balance issues for the PvP crowd then we can start to look at other things that can / should be done.


This guy has a brain, and has it right.

CCP do this.

No. Not at all to the removal of aggressive mode. This would be a massive buff to ECM.

I do agree with the removal of the ability to assign drones (see my above post).

But there could be another partial solution to sentry Ishtar overuse through changing a different ewar mechanic.

Painters are largely the forgotten 4th racial ewar. Why not buff painters to give them a drone control range reduction mechanic. Backstory-wise now it would make sense. TDs are supposed to be getting a missile effect ("soon") and rightly so now that Minmatar sports more missile using hulls. Painters should also get a drone effect now that Amarr has more drone using hulls.

A painted ship is lit up with energy. Conceptually the state of being painted would interfere with communication and transmission. Thus a drone control range effect.

Drone control range reduction might be relatively easy to code. It would affect sentry usage the most (in conjunction with a removal of the ability to assign drones). And it would kill two birds with one stone.

As a caveat, when TDs get their missile effect and Painters their drone effect the ewar modules themselves should get the ecm treatment in that the base strength is nerfed but the specialized hulls for these modules get a compensatory buff to their hull bonuses.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2015-01-30 15:42:56 UTC
afkalt wrote:
[quote=Soldarius]Not empty quoting.
Those things are MONSTERS. 75+ lowest resist, significant buffer, over 800 dps.
Yup, terrible Roll


It's a pirate faction cruiser with a bonus +20% to resist, and a very nice slot layout. What did you expect???
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#87 - 2015-01-30 15:52:33 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
afkalt wrote:
[quote=Soldarius]Not empty quoting.
Those things are MONSTERS. 75+ lowest resist, significant buffer, over 800 dps.
Yup, terrible Roll


It's a pirate faction cruiser with a bonus +20% to resist, and a very nice slot layout. What did you expect???


I wanted a pony on the side with it.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2015-01-30 15:54:43 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
afkalt wrote:
[quote=Soldarius]Not empty quoting.
Those things are MONSTERS. 75+ lowest resist, significant buffer, over 800 dps.
Yup, terrible Roll


It's a pirate faction cruiser with a bonus +20% to resist, and a very nice slot layout. What did you expect???



For people not to post:



>>>"Gila is so bad for most things"

In this very thread.


The thing is AWESOME. I expect nothing more from it.
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#89 - 2015-01-30 15:56:41 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
It's been said before and I still think it's the best option:

Reduce Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20 M/bits/s

Reduce Offending ships drone bandwidth to 100 Mbits/s

Ishtar/VNI can only field 4 sentries then (20% dps nerf) but can still field 5 heavies if they want.

Myrm gets a brawling buff so may need a rebalance.

Remove Carrier ability to use sentry drones and introduce a new fighter type called "Lancer Fighters". Lancer fighters orbit the carrier very slowly and have Sniper weapons fitted. Would obviously struggle to track anything smaller than a BS but would leave the "Slow Cat" ability intact somewhat.


This is the good solution, if we'd somehow reach the conclusion that there is a problem.

However, this "Ishtar issue" is nothing more than another installment in the never-ending series of "what the other guy is flying is always OP, CCP hjalp".

Nicholass Charante
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#90 - 2015-01-30 15:58:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicholass Charante
A good bombing wing can be lethal to an Ishtar fleet, the pressure of them/their drones being bombed constantly coupled with fighting the enemy fleet would hurt.

Rather than resorting to nerf's, think of a counter instead. EVE is basically a giant game of rock-paper-scissors in space after all :P
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#91 - 2015-01-30 16:09:41 UTC
Nicholass Charante wrote:
A good bombing wing can be lethal to an Ishtar fleet, the pressure of them/their drones being bombed constantly coupled with fighting the enemy fleet would hurt.

Rather than resorting to nerf's, think of a counter instead. EVE is basically a giant game of rock-paper-scissors in space after all :P


But that would require tactics and skills to implement them. How dare you demand such vulgarities from our dear forum posters? They will rather solve this in the elegant way of sitting in sentry fire while crying CCP for help.

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#92 - 2015-01-30 17:00:12 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
It's been said before and I still think it's the best option:

Reduce Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20 M/bits/s

Reduce Offending ships drone bandwidth to 100 Mbits/s

Ishtar/VNI can only field 4 sentries then (20% dps nerf) but can still field 5 heavies if they want.

Myrm gets a brawling buff so may need a rebalance.

Remove Carrier ability to use sentry drones and introduce a new fighter type called "Lancer Fighters". Lancer fighters orbit the carrier very slowly and have Sniper weapons fitted. Would obviously struggle to track anything smaller than a BS but would leave the "Slow Cat" ability intact somewhat.


This is the good solution, if we'd somehow reach the conclusion that there is a problem.

However, this "Ishtar issue" is nothing more than another installment in the never-ending series of "what the other guy is flying is always OP, CCP hjalp".



So when the show the video of the ishtar being pried from a cold dead hand.... that will be you hand. I can't wait.

Lancer Fighters are dumb - please stop. It's meeting a bad thing (carriers assigning sentries) half way. Slow Cat is a crappy boring tactic. It's success lies in it's server chocking abilities. Providing a half bad Lancer in lieu of a full bad sentry doesn't adress choking out the server. I get what you are trying to do, but it doesn't address a large part of the probelm. My 200 archons load grid and deploy Lancers or Sentries. Now the bad guys land and die before the load grid to lancers or sentries.

The drones would have different profiles / abilities / stats, but to the guy that jumps into the fight second - finally loading grid to find your self in your noob system in a new clone wouldn't feel all that different. He won't even know until the server coughs out his loss mail 4 hours after the fight is over. "Oh, look.... it was 600 Lancers that popped me before I loaded the grid"
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2015-01-30 17:06:00 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Dustpuppy wrote:
Easy solution to counter a fleet of ishtars: use them, too. These are not titans, everyone can afford one. So do some training and join the rest.


Twisted


You know something is stupid when the counter to it is itself...


And now for a rousing game of Rock Rock Rock.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#94 - 2015-01-30 17:12:20 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
It's been said before and I still think it's the best option:

Reduce Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20 M/bits/s

Reduce Offending ships drone bandwidth to 100 Mbits/s

Ishtar/VNI can only field 4 sentries then (20% dps nerf) but can still field 5 heavies if they want.

Myrm gets a brawling buff so may need a rebalance.

Remove Carrier ability to use sentry drones and introduce a new fighter type called "Lancer Fighters". Lancer fighters orbit the carrier very slowly and have Sniper weapons fitted. Would obviously struggle to track anything smaller than a BS but would leave the "Slow Cat" ability intact somewhat.


This is the good solution, if we'd somehow reach the conclusion that there is a problem.

However, this "Ishtar issue" is nothing more than another installment in the never-ending series of "what the other guy is flying is always OP, CCP hjalp".



No.


How can you not see how broken Ishtars are? It's been dissected and explained numerous times. You obviously don't PvP...or PvE as it's the go to ship for that as well.

I really believe some people simply cannot grasp the concept of balance.
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#95 - 2015-01-30 17:23:48 UTC
Phaade wrote:

No.


How can you not see how broken Ishtars are? It's been dissected and explained numerous times. You obviously don't PvP...or PvE as it's the go to ship for that as well.

I really believe some people simply cannot grasp the concept of balance.


This is exactly what I meant. You don't provide a single argument why it would be "op" in your opinion. You simply parrot other forum clowns, and in your cluelesness you start to believe in it if it's repeated enough.

You obviously don't PVP or PVE, or even log in, if all you see is Ishtars.



Iain Cariaba
#96 - 2015-01-30 17:42:45 UTC
Phaade wrote:
No.


How can you not see how broken Ishtars are? It's been dissected and explained numerous times. You obviously don't PvP...or PvE as it's the go to ship for that as well.

I really believe some people simply cannot grasp the concept of balance.

There are ships far, far more broken than what you claim the Ishtar to be. Most of them, however, are broken in the other direction. The Drake, for example, was nerfed so badly because of whiners like you that no one uses it anymore. Do us all a favor and post your lossmails so we can see why you're so hurt over the Ishtar.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#97 - 2015-01-30 18:37:14 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Phaade wrote:

No.


How can you not see how broken Ishtars are? It's been dissected and explained numerous times. You obviously don't PvP...or PvE as it's the go to ship for that as well.

I really believe some people simply cannot grasp the concept of balance.


This is exactly what I meant. You don't provide a single argument why it would be "op" in your opinion. You simply parrot other forum clowns, and in your cluelesness you start to believe in it if it's repeated enough.

You obviously don't PVP or PVE, or even log in, if all you see is Ishtars.





I'll purchase your beloved ishtar for a reasonable price post nerf. I'm sure if they remove it's riskaversyness you'll be more than willing to unload it. If it's a pve ishtar.... I'm only intersted in DED space fit ishtars.

I've reviewed your comments and "However, this "Ishtar issue" is nothing more than another installment in the never-ending series of "what the other guy is flying is always OP, CCP hjalp" seems to be your most 'valid' arguement for a non nerf. Stop throwing stones.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#98 - 2015-01-30 18:47:01 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Phaade wrote:
No.


How can you not see how broken Ishtars are? It's been dissected and explained numerous times. You obviously don't PvP...or PvE as it's the go to ship for that as well.

I really believe some people simply cannot grasp the concept of balance.

There are ships far, far more broken than what you claim the Ishtar to be. Most of them, however, are broken in the other direction. The Drake, for example, was nerfed so badly because of whiners like you that no one uses it anymore. Do us all a favor and post your lossmails so we can see why you're so hurt over the Ishtar.


LOL.

You are illustrating my point beautifully.

The old Drake was utterly overpowered. Why do you think 80% of the BC's in space were Drakes? Why were 3% of the BC's in space Prophecy's before teiricide? Balance man. It's Really, really simple. The drake is not un-useable, it's simply more in line with the others. Heavy missiles were what's broken anyway. HAM drakes are still good, though predictable.


And to Aiyshimin the fanboy (or woman, because you behave like a woman), there are literally hundreds of posts explaining exactly why the Ishtar is overpowered. I do not need to regurgitate information. So far I have not heard a single reasonable counter argument.

I also have first hand experience. Judging by your killboard you do not. Do not offer your opinion on the matter; it is worthless.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2015-01-30 19:17:56 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Phaade wrote:
No.


How can you not see how broken Ishtars are? It's been dissected and explained numerous times. You obviously don't PvP...or PvE as it's the go to ship for that as well.

I really believe some people simply cannot grasp the concept of balance.

There are ships far, far more broken than what you claim the Ishtar to be. Most of them, however, are broken in the other direction. The Drake, for example, was nerfed so badly because of whiners like you that no one uses it anymore. Do us all a favor and post your lossmails so we can see why you're so hurt over the Ishtar.


LOL.

You are illustrating my point beautifully.

The old Drake was utterly overpowered. Why do you think 80% of the BC's in space were Drakes? Why were 3% of the BC's in space Prophecy's before teiricide? Balance man. It's Really, really simple. The drake is not un-useable, it's simply more in line with the others. Heavy missiles were what's broken anyway. HAM drakes are still good, though predictable.


And to Aiyshimin the fanboy (or woman, because you behave like a woman), there are literally hundreds of posts explaining exactly why the Ishtar is overpowered. I do not need to regurgitate information. So far I have not heard a single reasonable counter argument.

I also have first hand experience. Judging by your killboard you do not. Do not offer your opinion on the matter; it is worthless.


What a wonderful impression of a rabid badger.
Legetus Shmoof Metallii
Resilience.
The Initiative.
#100 - 2015-01-30 19:37:24 UTC
HACs: Cerberus/Eagle, Ishtar/Deimos, Munnin/Vagabond, Sacrilege/Zealot
Battleship Weapons: Cruise Missiles, Torpedoes, Large Railguns/Blasters/Artillery, Cannons/Autocannons/, Pulse Lasers/Beam Lasers, Sentry Drones

HACs that cannot use Battleship Weapon Systems: Cerberus/Eagle, Deimos, Munnin/Vagabond, Sacrilege/Zealot
HACs that can use Battleship Weapon Systems: Ishtar

I see a problem here

O tempora o mores!