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Tempest Rebalance
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Sh00ter McGavin
Barr None
#61 - 2015-01-29 04:38:30 UTC
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
Sh00ter McGavin wrote:


Minmatar Battleship bonuses:
10% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 200




Are you out of your mind?



No. If you do the math, it's 939 DPS with Hail and Ogre II's. These are not earth-shattering numbers here.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2015-01-29 05:04:40 UTC
Sh00ter McGavin wrote:
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
Sh00ter McGavin wrote:


Minmatar Battleship bonuses:
10% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 200




Are you out of your mind?



No. If you do the math, it's 939 DPS with Hail and Ogre II's. These are not earth-shattering numbers here.



What is fit you are using for that?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Sh00ter McGavin
Barr None
#63 - 2015-01-29 05:12:16 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Sh00ter McGavin wrote:
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
Sh00ter McGavin wrote:


Minmatar Battleship bonuses:
10% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 200




Are you out of your mind?



No. If you do the math, it's 939 DPS with Hail and Ogre II's. These are not earth-shattering numbers here.



What is fit you are using for that?


6 800mm Repeating Autos w/ Hail
2 Heavy Neuts

2 Fleeting Webs
1 Scram
1 100mn Micro
1 medium cap booster

1 Damage Control II
2 Energized Nano Membrane II's
2 1600mm plates II
1 Gyro II

5 Ogre II's (anyone who says they're bad has obviously not used them with a scram and double webs. I single shot frigates with ogres all the time)

With this fit, and the bonuses I laid out, you have 939 DPS and 114K EHP. This is significantly less than a comparable Mega in every respect. The only thing that makes it good is webs and neuts. It is very much a support boat, and would probably get primaried.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2015-01-29 05:20:10 UTC
trimark's for rigs?


The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Sh00ter McGavin
Barr None
#65 - 2015-01-29 05:31:31 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
trimark's for rigs?





Yes, sorry about that *facepalm
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#66 - 2015-01-29 05:54:58 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Sh00ter McGavin wrote:


With this fit, and the bonuses I laid out, you have 939 DPS and 114K EHP. This is significantly less than a comparable Mega in every respect. The only thing that makes it good is webs and neuts. It is very much a support boat, and would probably get primaried.


Now fit 3x T2 gyros. Then fit 3x Faction gyros.

I assume you are including your web bonus still.
Sh00ter McGavin
Barr None
#67 - 2015-01-29 06:07:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Sh00ter McGavin wrote:


With this fit, and the bonuses I laid out, you have 939 DPS and 114K EHP. This is significantly less than a comparable Mega in every respect. The only thing that makes it good is webs and neuts. It is very much a support boat, and would probably get primaried.


Now fit 3x T2 gyros. Then fit 3x Faction gyros.

I assume you are including your web bonus still.


These numbers assume Hail.
3 T2 gyros: Turrets: 826.5 Total: 1143.5
3 Faction: Turrets: 874.5 Total: 1191.5

This of course completely nerfs your tank.

Yes, that was still included. I honestly do not see how it's OP. Even with a True Sansha web and full skirmish boosts, it can only reach to 30k. An armageddon will easily reach that far with standard neuts and ruin your whole day.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#68 - 2015-01-29 06:14:48 UTC
Sh00ter McGavin wrote:


These numbers assume Hail.
3 T2 gyros: Turrets: 826.5 Total: 1143.5
3 Faction: Turrets: 874.5 Total: 1191.5

This of course completely nerfs your tank.

Yes, that was still included. I honestly do not see how it's OP. Even with a True Sansha web and full skirmish boosts, it can only reach to 30k. An armageddon will easily reach that far with standard neuts and ruin your whole day.


You wont be running into a geddon.

So, we have a pest with 30km webs, firepower greater than blasters at that range, sabot ammo and when shield tanked it will have at least two TE. Pop in a pill and you have something that will rip **** apart like there is no tomorrow.

You do not want to hand a ship like this over to people like me. Its overpowered.
Sh00ter McGavin
Barr None
#69 - 2015-01-29 06:19:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Sh00ter McGavin wrote:


These numbers assume Hail.
3 T2 gyros: Turrets: 826.5 Total: 1143.5
3 Faction: Turrets: 874.5 Total: 1191.5

This of course completely nerfs your tank.

Yes, that was still included. I honestly do not see how it's OP. Even with a True Sansha web and full skirmish boosts, it can only reach to 30k. An armageddon will easily reach that far with standard neuts and ruin your whole day.


You wont be running into a geddon.

So, we have a pest with 30km webs, firepower greater than blasters at that range, sabot ammo and when shield tanked it will have at least two TE. Pop in a pill and you have something that will rip **** apart like there is no tomorrow.

You do not want to hand a ship like this over to people like me. Its overpowered.


By that reasoning, the Raven is also OP. With skirmish boosts and true sansha webs on a Raven, you could sit at 16k all day long and rip any blaster boat to shreds while he did little to nothing in return, and that wouldn't even nerf the Raven's tank. Every boat that can maintain stand-off distance shreds blaster boats. I can't count the number of times I've melted a brutix in a drake because I can pull distance on them with little trouble and negate most of their DPS.

Boats that can maintain stand-off distance will always have the advantage over brawlers. Period.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2015-01-29 06:21:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
All my dislike of webbing bonused T1 battleships aside, you still make a good point here:

Quote:
"I remembered that the Armageddon was given a new lease on life by being turned into the Amarr E-war boat with its new bonuses to neuts. So... why can't the Minmatar have the same thing?"


Neuting was amarr's 'special' Ewar, that only their T2 and T3 ships had. Webbing is the same for Minmatar. I don't like the idea, but I can't argue with that point. The Geddon went from being 'meh' to a phenomenal neut platform useable alongside *delete extra word* so many fleet comps.

Come down to 10 or 15% per level on web range. 10% might be better, once links are considered.

That will make a T2 web's max range at L5 skills ~20k,, 26k overheated. @15%/level.

16k and 21k at 10%.

Leave the drone bay. A mega only has 75 Mb.

And maybe adjust to 7,5,7 slot layout, -1 turret location

7.5% damage per level. Maybe. or 5% tracking.


IDK, I know it's not a popular opinion(Inserts unpopular opinion puffin) but I can't get around that point, and a 16k web isn't so very horrid compared to a 45k rack of heavy neuts.


If you come down on the web range, I have to concede a +1 for this, even though I still have some reservations.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Sh00ter McGavin
Barr None
#71 - 2015-01-29 06:36:24 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
All my dislike of webbing bonused T1 battleships aside, you still make a good point here:

Quote:
"I remembered that the Armageddon was given a new lease on life by being turned into the Amarr E-war boat with its new bonuses to neuts. So... why can't the Minmatar have the same thing?"


Neuting was amarr's 'special' Ewar, that only their T2 and T3 ships had. Webbing is the same for Minmatar. I don't like the idea, but I can't argue with that point. The Geddon went from being 'meh' to a phenomenal neut platform useable alongside *delete extra word* so many fleet comps.

Come down to 10 or 15% per level on web range. 10% might be better, once links are considered.

That will make a T2 web's max range at L5 skills ~20k,, 26k overheated. @15%/level.

16k and 21k at 10%.

Leave the drone bay. A mega only has 75 Mb.

And maybe adjust to 7,5,7 slot layout, -1 turret location

7.5% damage per level. Maybe. or 5% tracking.


IDK, I know it's not a popular opinion(Inserts unpopular opinion puffin) but I can't get around that point, and a 16k web isn't so very horrid compared to a 45k rack of heavy neuts.


If you come down on the web range, I have to concede a +1 for this, even though I still have some reservations.


Now that I think about it more, 10% per level would be more in line with T1 hull bonuses, and would still give the pest its own flavor.

That slot layout and drone bandwidth significantly reduces the damage potential of the ship. Way too much, if you ask me. Perhaps 100 bandwidth with 175 bay?

Part of the reason I thought of this was to preserve the pest's unique slot layout. No other ship in the game has the same slot layout, and I wanted to make that viable.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#72 - 2015-01-29 07:15:19 UTC
Sh00ter wrote:


By that reasoning, the Raven is also OP.




Wrong. The raven does not have range bonused webs.
Sh00ter McGavin
Barr None
#73 - 2015-01-29 07:27:00 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Sh00ter wrote:


By that reasoning, the Raven is also OP.




Wrong. The raven does not have range bonused webs.


No kidding. However, it can still hold a blaster boat outside its optimal range with ease. That is the point I was making, which you ignored. Specifically, a boat that has longer range and webs will ALWAYS have the upper hand against a blaster boat. You don't think Ravens are OP, yet they can tear blaster boats apart with ease if flown properly.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#74 - 2015-01-29 08:23:53 UTC
Sh00ter McGavin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Sh00ter wrote:


By that reasoning, the Raven is also OP.




Wrong. The raven does not have range bonused webs.


No kidding. However, it can still hold a blaster boat outside its optimal range with ease. That is the point I was making, which you ignored. Specifically, a boat that has longer range and webs will ALWAYS have the upper hand against a blaster boat. You don't think Ravens are OP, yet they can tear blaster boats apart with ease if flown properly.


What you are asking for is overpowered because of the changes you want to make. There is a damn good reason why no t1 battleship has range bonused webs. They are simply far too powerful on a projectile battleship. your new pest would be able solo just about anything.
Sh00ter McGavin
Barr None
#75 - 2015-01-29 18:15:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Sh00ter McGavin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Sh00ter wrote:


By that reasoning, the Raven is also OP.




Wrong. The raven does not have range bonused webs.


No kidding. However, it can still hold a blaster boat outside its optimal range with ease. That is the point I was making, which you ignored. Specifically, a boat that has longer range and webs will ALWAYS have the upper hand against a blaster boat. You don't think Ravens are OP, yet they can tear blaster boats apart with ease if flown properly.


What you are asking for is overpowered because of the changes you want to make. There is a damn good reason why no t1 battleship has range bonused webs. They are simply far too powerful on a projectile battleship. your new pest would be able solo just about anything.


Wrong.
Typhoon
Maelstrom
Raven
Apocalypse
What do all these fits have in common? Well, one, I've flown them all, but more importantly, every single one of them would drive off or destroy ANY fit you could possible come up with for a Tempest with the set of bonuses I laid out, unless you went with true kiting. However, that's what kiters do, and SHOULD be able to do, and this version of the Tempest would be very poor at kiting. It would NOT be able to 'solo just about anything.' I specifically gave it the bonuses I gave it, for instance, no falloff or optimal bonuses, because I feel that it would be a very good support ship, not a solo boat.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2015-01-29 18:32:59 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

nothing wrong with active tanking BS


Nothing wrong with active tanking a BS, it's just active tanking bonuses. the majority of the time it's a wasted bonus on battleships.



^this is actually more symptomatic of the 'logi all the things,' 'blob all the things,' or 'ishtar all the things' mentalities pervading Eve right now, not necessarily a problem with active tanking. This problem was made much worse by the T1 logi cruisers, even though they did quite a bit for getting people back into low sec for a while, and promoting GF's for a time.

That random active tanked maelstrom using a proper fit, blue pill, tengu boosty alt, etc, is still a monster to take down, or triple rep myrm, and so forth. The fix here isn't just remove the local rep bonuses because logi are OP and the current game environment promotes the larger blob, it's finding ways to make the smaller guy able to fight the blob, directly or indirectly, or giving the blob good enough reasons to not be the blob.


a slow, high sig weak buffer active tanking monster. Ironically the best counter to this is a properly fitted maelstrom.... or a tornado. oh and I actually 1v1 a triple rep myrm with an arty nado, and won.

anyway who's to you can't use logi ships in small gangs?
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2015-01-29 20:00:06 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

nothing wrong with active tanking BS


Nothing wrong with active tanking a BS, it's just active tanking bonuses. the majority of the time it's a wasted bonus on battleships.



^this is actually more symptomatic of the 'logi all the things,' 'blob all the things,' or 'ishtar all the things' mentalities pervading Eve right now, not necessarily a problem with active tanking. This problem was made much worse by the T1 logi cruisers, even though they did quite a bit for getting people back into low sec for a while, and promoting GF's for a time.

That random active tanked maelstrom using a proper fit, blue pill, tengu boosty alt, etc, is still a monster to take down, or triple rep myrm, and so forth. The fix here isn't just remove the local rep bonuses because logi are OP and the current game environment promotes the larger blob, it's finding ways to make the smaller guy able to fight the blob, directly or indirectly, or giving the blob good enough reasons to not be the blob.


a slow, high sig weak buffer active tanking monster. Ironically the best counter to this is a properly fitted maelstrom.... or a tornado. oh and I actually 1v1 a triple rep myrm with an arty nado, and won.

anyway who's to you can't use logi ships in small gangs?



Wow I wish that post made any sense whatsoever :/ or had any correlation to the post you were supposedly responding to

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#78 - 2015-01-29 20:28:40 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

nothing wrong with active tanking BS


Nothing wrong with active tanking a BS, it's just active tanking bonuses. the majority of the time it's a wasted bonus on battleships.



^this is actually more symptomatic of the 'logi all the things,' 'blob all the things,' or 'ishtar all the things' mentalities pervading Eve right now, not necessarily a problem with active tanking. This problem was made much worse by the T1 logi cruisers, even though they did quite a bit for getting people back into low sec for a while, and promoting GF's for a time.

That random active tanked maelstrom using a proper fit, blue pill, tengu boosty alt, etc, is still a monster to take down, or triple rep myrm, and so forth. The fix here isn't just remove the local rep bonuses because logi are OP and the current game environment promotes the larger blob, it's finding ways to make the smaller guy able to fight the blob, directly or indirectly, or giving the blob good enough reasons to not be the blob.


a slow, high sig weak buffer active tanking monster. Ironically the best counter to this is a properly fitted maelstrom.... or a tornado. oh and I actually 1v1 a triple rep myrm with an arty nado, and won.

anyway who's to you can't use logi ships in small gangs?


Tornados are one of the best counters against active tanks. Anything with large alpha is. The only thing i find odd about the story is an arty nado barely has a tank (LSE+Invuln at best). Hard to believe the myrm's drones didnt force you off.

There are different playstyles in EVE. Active tank bonuses are more suited to solo/small gang, where using logi severely gimps the gangs available dps. Example, 3-4man gang. If you have 1 really good tackle pilot, then that leaves with 2-3 dps spots. Use one for logi, and now you have a 1-2 dedicated dps ships, which isnt ideal.

Where as ships with resist bonuses are more favored by fleets due to big buffer and high resists. Which scales well with logi. Ofc things like alpha maels exist. So there are always going to be exceptions.

Keep active tank bonuses, they make fun ships. And if setup right, can tank way more than a double 1600 plated BS. Just not against multiple nados ;).

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2015-01-30 13:56:26 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

nothing wrong with active tanking BS


Nothing wrong with active tanking a BS, it's just active tanking bonuses. the majority of the time it's a wasted bonus on battleships.



^this is actually more symptomatic of the 'logi all the things,' 'blob all the things,' or 'ishtar all the things' mentalities pervading Eve right now, not necessarily a problem with active tanking. This problem was made much worse by the T1 logi cruisers, even though they did quite a bit for getting people back into low sec for a while, and promoting GF's for a time.

That random active tanked maelstrom using a proper fit, blue pill, tengu boosty alt, etc, is still a monster to take down, or triple rep myrm, and so forth. The fix here isn't just remove the local rep bonuses because logi are OP and the current game environment promotes the larger blob, it's finding ways to make the smaller guy able to fight the blob, directly or indirectly, or giving the blob good enough reasons to not be the blob.


a slow, high sig weak buffer active tanking monster. Ironically the best counter to this is a properly fitted maelstrom.... or a tornado. oh and I actually 1v1 a triple rep myrm with an arty nado, and won.

anyway who's to you can't use logi ships in small gangs?


Tornados are one of the best counters against active tanks. Anything with large alpha is. The only thing i find odd about the story is an arty nado barely has a tank (LSE+Invuln at best). Hard to believe the myrm's drones didnt force you off.

There are different playstyles in EVE. Active tank bonuses are more suited to solo/small gang, where using logi severely gimps the gangs available dps. Example, 3-4man gang. If you have 1 really good tackle pilot, then that leaves with 2-3 dps spots. Use one for logi, and now you have a 1-2 dedicated dps ships, which isnt ideal.

Where as ships with resist bonuses are more favored by fleets due to big buffer and high resists. Which scales well with logi. Ofc things like alpha maels exist. So there are always going to be exceptions.

Keep active tank bonuses, they make fun ships. And if setup right, can tank way more than a double 1600 plated BS. Just not against multiple nados ;).


Ok not going to say I'm good at solo, over the summer I bought about 20 tornados 15 ruppys, 15 stabbers, I don't even know how much thrashers with the intention to lose them all... practice makes perfect right.

this particular fight, I did not have AWU 5 or PG plants, I did however just get my T2 large Howitzers and wanted to test them out. so I actually had no tank what so ever

anyway I come across a Myrm solo capping a gate, I'm not sure if he was slow to lock or I just got out of scram range that quickly. either way this tornado could do something stupid like 3km/s

8x 1400mm

10mn meta 4 MWD
T2 long point
T2 tracking computer
2x T2 target painter

3x T2 gyros
1x nanofiber

2x ACR
1x Polycarb

a dreadnought could track heavy and medium drones flying straight at it, so I broke my gun group locked every drone shot one gun at a time till the flight was gone. rinse repeat. once the drones were gone, 4 volleys made a dead myrm.

anyway, I simply don't think active tanking buffs should be for larger T1 ships. that should just be a CS, faction, and murader.