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Fix for Ishtars online
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Zekora Rally
U2EZ
#41 - 2015-01-29 06:41:02 UTC
Reduce bandwidth to 100mb/s.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2015-01-29 07:59:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The ship isn't the problem its the sentries.


Tracking and range bonused ones maybe. Without that they're not special.
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2015-01-29 08:47:28 UTC
Learn to use the search tool man... This topic is already incredibly redundant
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#44 - 2015-01-29 08:52:48 UTC
afkalt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The ship isn't the problem its the sentries.


Tracking and range bonused ones maybe. Without that they're not special.


Nerf the ishtar and we move to the domi, nerf the domi and we still have the problem with sentry spewing carrier blobs. They are the cause of a good number of issues out there. Dealing with the sentries would save a good deal of time.
Gosti Kahanid
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#45 - 2015-01-29 09:02:38 UTC
Reduce the bandwith of Heavy-Drones to 20mbit/s and then reduce the Ishtar (and maybe some other ships) to 100mb/s. With this the Ishtar can still use 5 Heavy Drones but only 4 Sentries. Let Battleships the only one who can use a full flight of Sentries
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2015-01-29 09:08:01 UTC
The domi is a pale shadow next to the ishtar. Much slower, less range, no MWD sig bonuses to name but a few. A domi blob isn't significantly better than many other BS blobs of sufficient size.

If the range/tracking is addressed domis are perfectly stoppable, ishtars remain a concern because of all their other assets. My fitting sacrifices on an ishtar are literally non-existent, not so on a Domi as I cannot cover all bases with a single fit.

Capital blobs are just stupid anyway and a whole other discussion Smile
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#47 - 2015-01-29 09:17:32 UTC
Here's what I think:

Aside from a reduction in top speed don't change the ishtar itself, but nerf dps and tank on sentry drones. Set them up so they're more of an alpha strike weapon platform, and have their dps significantly reduces do heavy drones are top dog for dps. The balance problem with the ishtar exists more for the weapons systems it uses, and not necessarily for the ship itself.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#48 - 2015-01-29 12:42:17 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
So, when you've successfully nerfed Ishtars into oblivion, are you going to then beg for nerfs to whatever takes its place as the OP hull of choice? And when that hull goes the way of the drake, are you going to protest the next FOTM hull? When does it stop?

I would really like an honest answer to these questions from OP.


Based on your phrasing "OP hull of choice" I would say the obvious answer is yes. It's only logical that if a ship is over powered and everyone is using it because it's over powered then for game balance any reasonable pilot would want it to be nerfed to where it is no longer over powered.

Drakes are currently awesome. The aren't the I WIN button you seem to want to pilot, but they are awesome. Send your newest drake pilot into a site as bait. The current drake isn't the 'obvious bait' it used to be, but it's still tanky enough to hold on until the support counter gank fleet arrives. Deploy drake, wiggle it around until the other folks just can't take it and engage. Noob in drake holds on and the tables are turned.... PVP happens. woot. It's much better than the old OP drake.

I guess it's perspective. If you want to strut around eve in your I WIN fleet of OP whatevers and FEEL AWESOME, then feel free to fly that way. If you want to fly around in a regular ship and actualy BE AWESOME then fly around like that. To each his own I say.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#49 - 2015-01-29 13:03:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Here's what I think:

Aside from a reduction in top speed don't change the ishtar itself, but nerf dps and tank on sentry drones. Set them up so they're more of an alpha strike weapon platform, and have their dps significantly reduces do heavy drones are top dog for dps. The balance problem with the ishtar exists more for the weapons systems it uses, and not necessarily for the ship itself.



The problem isn't that sentry drones are OP or too tanky. The problem is that ishtars dropping sentry drones and kiting out of harms way is OP. Fix the ishtar, don't nerf a perfectly fine sentry drone.

Take sentries away from the ishtar and it becomes a fine HAC. It can still drop 5 heavies and wreak havoc on it's prey. With the heavies it will have to actually engage it's target, apply a point/scram and maybe a web and or painter to get the most use out of its heavy drones.

HAC - Heavy Assault Cruiser. They typically use high reists, small sig radius and acceptable damage. The ishtar doesn't. Taking away sentries will bring it back in line with the other heavy ASSAULT cruisers.

Or change it's assigned ship class to PKC - @@ssy Kiting Cruiser. At least call it what it is.


Take sentries away from ishtars and all will be right as rain.
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#50 - 2015-01-29 13:14:06 UTC
Imho sentries should be a battleship class weapon that can only be used by battleships and carriers, meaning

- some more dps
- much less tracking
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#51 - 2015-01-29 13:20:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
baltec1 wrote:
afkalt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The ship isn't the problem its the sentries.


Tracking and range bonused ones maybe. Without that they're not special.


Nerf the ishtar and we move to the domi, nerf the domi and we still have the problem with sentry spewing carrier blobs. They are the cause of a good number of issues out there. Dealing with the sentries would save a good deal of time.


Here's an idea.

Take sentries away from the ishtar - it becomes a normal HAC.

Leave the dommi as is - it's a dommi - it was born to be a swiss army sentry knife.

Take away a capital ships ability to assign drones. Just get rid of it. Keep their awesome ability to assign fighters and fighter bombers - that's the point of the ship. Let them use all flavors of drones they currently can, just only allow assignment of fighters and fighter bombers.

That would take care of 2 major drone problems. Let that settle out. If eve then becomes Dommis Online, then have a look see at them.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2015-01-29 13:35:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
It's been said before and I still think it's the best option:

Reduce Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20 M/bits/s

Reduce Offending ships drone bandwidth to 100 Mbits/s

Ishtar/VNI can only field 4 sentries then (20% dps nerf) but can still field 5 heavies if they want.

Myrm gets a brawling buff so may need a rebalance.

Remove Carrier ability to use sentry drones and introduce a new fighter type called "Lancer Fighters". Lancer fighters orbit the carrier very slowly and have Sniper weapons fitted. Would obviously struggle to track anything smaller than a BS but would leave the "Slow Cat" ability intact somewhat.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#53 - 2015-01-29 14:10:46 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
It's been said before and I still think it's the best option:

Reduce Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20 M/bits/s

Reduce Offending ships drone bandwidth to 100 Mbits/s

Ishtar/VNI can only field 4 sentries then (20% dps nerf) but can still field 5 heavies if they want.

Myrm gets a brawling buff so may need a rebalance.

Remove Carrier ability to use sentry drones and introduce a new fighter type called "Lancer Fighters". Lancer fighters orbit the carrier very slowly and have Sniper weapons fitted. Would obviously struggle to track anything smaller than a BS but would leave the "Slow Cat" ability intact somewhat.


Your suggestions don't fix the underlying problems. The problem with the ishtar is that it drops sentries and runs out of combat range and still does damage. It can kill you, but you can't kill it is the problem. It can kill you 20% slower and you can't kill it doesn't fix the problem it just reduces incoming damage by 20%. When I say ishtar, I mean all cruises. Just make the sentry drone a BS and up thing.

You crap lance fighter ideas is crap too. Face it, archons assigning sentries is game breaking. Get rid of it. Don't half get rid of it w/ the 'lancer garbage fighter pacification drone'. The tactic sux, so take it away. Keep assignment of fighters and fighter bombers. Thats cool. Get rid of the ability to assign sentries and other normal drones.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#54 - 2015-01-29 15:38:06 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Pravius wrote:

i dont have an issue with drones in general... i have an issue with sentry drones being used by a cruiser sized hull....
i dont even have issue with the ishtar and gila type ships useing heavy drones because being a specialized drone ship and all...

why fly a bs drone boat when isthars can do it.... and that is why every alliance flys ishtar fleets all the time. because its bs dps with cruiser sig and speed.



Did you somehow miss the tons of Domis in recent AT's?

And the main reason alliances fly Ishtars over Domis is that Ishtars are less prone to dying in the first few minutes of the fight from two bomb waves, since they are far more mobile and have lower sig radius that a Dominix.

If bombers were nerfed heavily, BS fleets would be far more common, but bringing just about any large BS fleet other than rattlesnakes is basically just a "kill my entire fleet with 20 bombers" sign being waved about.


Domi fleet stands up to bombing runs much better than ishtars if the bombs hit. The ishtars defence is to get out of the way
Zekora Rally
U2EZ
#55 - 2015-01-29 16:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Zekora Rally
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
It's been said before and I still think it's the best option:

Reduce Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20 M/bits/s

Reduce Offending ships drone bandwidth to 100 Mbits/s

Ishtar/VNI can only field 4 sentries then (20% dps nerf) but can still field 5 heavies if they want.

Myrm gets a brawling buff so may need a rebalance.

Remove Carrier ability to use sentry drones and introduce a new fighter type called "Lancer Fighters". Lancer fighters orbit the carrier very slowly and have Sniper weapons fitted. Would obviously struggle to track anything smaller than a BS but would leave the "Slow Cat" ability intact somewhat.


Your suggestions don't fix the underlying problems. The problem with the ishtar is that it drops sentries and runs out of combat range and still does damage. It can kill you, but you can't kill it is the problem. It can kill you 20% slower and you can't kill it doesn't fix the problem it just reduces incoming damage by 20%. When I say ishtar, I mean all cruises. Just make the sentry drone a BS and up thing.

You crap lance fighter ideas is crap too. Face it, archons assigning sentries is game breaking. Get rid of it. Don't half get rid of it w/ the 'lancer garbage fighter pacification drone'. The tactic sux, so take it away. Keep assignment of fighters and fighter bombers. Thats cool. Get rid of the ability to assign sentries and other normal drones.



What exactly is stopping anyone from shooting the sentries? I remember having that discussion a couple days ago with my corp mates after a fight with a gang of 3 ishtars and a couple cerbs. We noticed the ishtars did the most damage after looking through the lossmails and questioned why we never shot their sentries down.

Obviously, It will not be so easy especially with short range weapons and given the 6k ehp of sentries but I don't see why it's not done often. If the ishtars are running away then kill the sentries. It's so simple.

On the topic of nerfs, a reduction of the ishtar drone bay size to 175 will ensure only a set of sentries or heavies can be carried at once.

P.S. How is there anything wrong with assigning sentries when it's ok to assign fighters that are more likely to hit?
Zekora Rally
U2EZ
#56 - 2015-01-29 16:12:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
afkalt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The ship isn't the problem its the sentries.


Tracking and range bonused ones maybe. Without that they're not special.


Nerf the ishtar and we move to the domi, nerf the domi and we still have the problem with sentry spewing carrier blobs. They are the cause of a good number of issues out there. Dealing with the sentries would save a good deal of time.

Domis arent even close to Ishtars in terms of mobility/agility so you'll definitely be giving up something there and carriers can simply be dropped by dreads/supercaps/titans.
pwlngs
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2015-01-29 16:18:08 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Broken record here so I am just going to start a copy and paste into all the nerf Ishtar threads I can find.

-1

Again with the nerf Ishtar / sentry drone combination. Why is it that everyone misses the most logical first step in balancing this combination and jumps immediately to the nerfs instead?

Based on reading online the most common complaint with Ishtar / sentry combination is the ability to set them to aggressive mode which allows them to attack without the pilot needing a target lock or to set them to assist another ship in which case the Ishtar becomes nothing but a transport mechanism either of these allows them to drop and run away and hide.

While nerfs to damage, control range, bandwidth and various other ideas would solve the problme for the PvP crowd it would have an even larger and un-intended affect on the usefulness of the Ishtar for PvE. We don't care about PvE you say and my response is you should, this is a game that is played by many different types of players and we all have to share the same ships and equipment and the needs of ALL segments of the game need to be considered in any balance adjustment that is made.

As this applies to the Ishtar / sentry combination why start with the nerf bat big time when a simple change to drone use mechanics may solve the problem for the PvP crowd yet have minimal impact on the PvE crowd.
Just one such idea is to remove the aggressive mode and the ability to assign drones to assist another ship, so what does this do for the situation.
1. It requires the drones pilot to have a target lock to be able to shoot anything.
2. It prevents them from dropping drones and running away like a scared baby.
3. It makes drones ships just as susceptible to EWAR as most other ships.
4. It would have minimal affect on the use of this combination in the PvE segment of the game.

So I say give these simply fixes that have minimal impact on the PvE side of the game a try first. When they are tried and IF they do not solve the balance issues for the PvP crowd then we can start to look at other things that can / should be done.


This guy has a brain, and has it right.

CCP do this.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#58 - 2015-01-29 17:47:28 UTC
Zekora Rally wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
It's been said before and I still think it's the best option:

Reduce Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20 M/bits/s

Reduce Offending ships drone bandwidth to 100 Mbits/s

Ishtar/VNI can only field 4 sentries then (20% dps nerf) but can still field 5 heavies if they want.

Myrm gets a brawling buff so may need a rebalance.

Remove Carrier ability to use sentry drones and introduce a new fighter type called "Lancer Fighters". Lancer fighters orbit the carrier very slowly and have Sniper weapons fitted. Would obviously struggle to track anything smaller than a BS but would leave the "Slow Cat" ability intact somewhat.


Your suggestions don't fix the underlying problems. The problem with the ishtar is that it drops sentries and runs out of combat range and still does damage. It can kill you, but you can't kill it is the problem. It can kill you 20% slower and you can't kill it doesn't fix the problem it just reduces incoming damage by 20%. When I say ishtar, I mean all cruises. Just make the sentry drone a BS and up thing.

You crap lance fighter ideas is crap too. Face it, archons assigning sentries is game breaking. Get rid of it. Don't half get rid of it w/ the 'lancer garbage fighter pacification drone'. The tactic sux, so take it away. Keep assignment of fighters and fighter bombers. Thats cool. Get rid of the ability to assign sentries and other normal drones.



What exactly is stopping anyone from shooting the sentries? I remember having that discussion a couple days ago with my corp mates after a fight with a gang of 3 ishtars and a couple cerbs. We noticed the ishtars did the most damage after looking through the lossmails and questioned why we never shot their sentries down.

Obviously, It will not be so easy especially with short range weapons and given the 6k ehp of sentries but I don't see why it's not done often. If the ishtars are running away then kill the sentries. It's so simple.

On the topic of nerfs, a reduction of the ishtar drone bay size to 175 will ensure only a set of sentries or heavies can be carried at once.

P.S. How is there anything wrong with assigning sentries when it's ok to assign fighters that are more likely to hit?


You need to get some more pvp under your belt. I would be more than happy to drop some ishtars on you and watch you simply kill off the sentries. I mean heck, w/ all the pvp folks in eve, how could we all have missed this? Now that you 'simply kill all the sentries' counter is out, I doubt folks will bother flying them any more. You may have just shut down OP ishtar for good.

I'm going to put "If the ishtars are running away, then kill the sentries. It's so simple" in Baltec1's bio.

On a serious note - there are a lot of counters to the ishtar. There really isn't a good one. That's why they are OP and currently flown by every risk averse 'pvp hero' in eve.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#59 - 2015-01-29 20:36:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Delete Sentries.

I never considered this. The more I think about it though, the more sense it makes. +1
Biron Soringard
Absurdity of Abstractions
#60 - 2015-01-29 21:28:32 UTC
POS Tax?