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Gallente Presidential Election Enters Advance Voting Stage

Author
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#41 - 2015-01-28 19:46:55 UTC
Jukko Riis wrote:
Aelisha wrote:
I think that to take one pilot as an example of the State is a bad idea. Similarly, Caldari prime is a complex world raggedly divided between the State and Federation at this point.




No.

Caldari Prime is a Caldari world. The Caldari HOMEWORLD. There is no complexity. There is no division.


I fought above Caldari Prime in support of the State because out of the two options, I believe the State should have a right to govern and control it.

But even considering that, I must disagree with you. There are Gallente who live there who have been there longer then you've been alive. And there are people of Caldari blood who live inside the Federation who call both Caldari Prime and the Federation their own. Insisting on One People, One State is a madness generally left to people like Kim. The situation is not that black and white.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2015-01-28 20:04:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Caldari Prime is a Caldari world. The Caldari HOMEWORLD. There is no complexity. There is no division.


I fought above Caldari Prime in support of the State because out of the two options, I believe the State should have a right to govern and control it.

But even considering that, I must disagree with you. There are Gallente who live there who have been there longer then you've been alive. And there are people of Caldari blood who live inside the Federation who call both Caldari Prime and the Federation their own. Insisting on One People, One State is a madness generally left to people like Kim. The situation is not that black and white.


Whilst the lives of those Gallente living on Home need to be safeguarded and their rights considered, I hardly consider them the central point - any more than I consider my rights to your wallet should be the central point after I steal it while you're taking a shower and stick it in my backpocket.

One People, One State, Many Traditions is the full quote you were aiming for and it means that whilst all Caldari have a right to live in the State and whilst there can only ever be ONE Caldari State, there is room for many traditions within it. These traditions have typically belonged to the various Megacorps, but there are signs that Achuran traditions will also come to be accepted within the mainstream.

Should those Caldari tragically left behind during the exodus from Home opt to return to their people, we'd all welcome them with open arms, I'm sure, but until they do they are Federation citizens and the descendants of Federation citizens. If remaining on Caldari Prime was more important to them than living as free Caldari, then remaining on Home should be more important to them than living as free Gallente, no? Or they could even opt to stay on as guest workers, I suppose, if there's a local need for that sort of thing.

The current success with exploring diplomatic options should not be seen as a general lack of concern or care over the eventual fate of Home. Most of us see the current situation as a work-in-progress, with diplomacy as a better solution than costly and unjust war. So long as the wheels stay in motion, there is absolutely no need to escalate - but if the wheels fall off...

Things will get VERY black and white. Very fast.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2015-01-28 20:04:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Aelisha
Jukko Riis, you might want to talk to the Chief Executive Panel about your claims, as it is they who co-ratified the current state of affairs, a divided Caldari Prime, with the Federal Senate at the close of operation Highlander. This is not a point of argument, debate or question. It is a fact. Moralise and philosophise to your heart's content, the cold reality of the matter is that Caldari Prime is a world cut in two. It is a state of affairs that saddens me, but a state of affairs that we must live and deal with.

As for Caldari Prime being a Caldari world, I do not disagree. My caveat is that it is a world that belongs in heritage to the Caldari people, their non-Caldari neighbours and their children no matter what their race or creed. One cannot claim a world by dint of race alone.

As for your follow up arguments, I don't really consider them worth much discussion. They bear little relevance to the discussion at hand, unless you're interested in fringe politics and outlier candidates.

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer

Milo Caman
Anshar Incorporated
#44 - 2015-01-28 20:16:35 UTC
Troy Cintryx wrote:
Fully agreed. There is more to leadership than war and fear mongering. Gallenteans want a future of hope and prosperity, not fear and hatred. The Federation expands fastest through culture exchange and relationships, not by brute force. We are not Amarrian.


Do you remember the public execution of Anvent Eturrer? The man was burned alive by a screaming mob and the public, the press and the state largely endorsed it.

Perhaps Ramnev can drag the federation back towards civilization, but until then, I remain unconvinced.
Jukko Riis
Doomheim
#45 - 2015-01-28 20:25:21 UTC
I think Tuulinen-haan put it very succinctly.

The Board made its decisions following Highlander because the wheels were still moving in the right direction. And following the fall of the Shiigeru, this was probably a good thing. And if you were planet-side when that happened...

But again, as stated, we have a kind of peace and we have some very good peace-keepers in place to help keep it maintained.

But this is not a long-term solution. Decisions will have to be made on both sides. I hope that whomever gets elected in the Federation will realize this and quickly make the only right decision. Because as you say, the state of affairs is sad. But it's not something that either side can live with for long.



Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#46 - 2015-01-28 21:22:17 UTC
Could those Caldari pilots who have thus far dominated every discussion on the upcoming Election with irrelevant arguments amongst each other... not?

By all means, this is a forum for Capsuleers of all nationalities to have their say on any and all topics. By all means, anyone wishing to discuss the election and the candidates should be they Caldari, Minmatar, Amarr... whoever.

But so many of you are not discussing the election. You're discussing your own internal Caldari conflicts. I've read everything from a treatise on the Heroism of Tibus Heth to an analysis of CEP legal decisions related to the division of Caldari Prime.

Since I'm lecturing, I'll offer a few suggestions.

What do you Caldari think of the potential for discourse between certain candidates and Caldari political factions? Can any of them open up dialogue outside what Roden has managed to accomplish welcoming Ishukone to the negotiating table?

How will rank and file Caldari workers perceive different candidates? Will shared heritage be perceived as more accessible or relatable than Roden's business acumen?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#47 - 2015-01-28 21:30:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Interesting questions!

I support, wholeheartedly, the idea of competing candidates opening up their own discourse with the State and with different players within the State. It's absurd to pretend that relations with the State won't be a big issue in this term and I'd prefer to see candidates making informed position statements regarding their plans in this area.

Regarding Roden, himself, I would be seriously concerned that relations would take a hit were he to be elected to continue as President. This is because he, himself, has had very little dialog with us and the perception is that progress on Caldari Prime has happened under his term despite of him, at the behest of Congress, not because of him.

Rank and file workers will generally look to their Company for the company line. This line will depend on positioning within State political circles and also regarding that candidates engagement with the various political blocs in the State. Generally speaking, Patriots will be suspicious that whoever takes over will scupper the peace process, Practicals will keep an eye on whether they can profit and Liberals will support anyone who works to thaw relations and improve trade.

As regards 'shared heritage' most Caldari view ties of blood as being negligible compared to culture. They will, at best, feel sorry that a Federation-Caldari was left behind and at worst they will suspect them of some form of collaboration or treason with the Federation. If one of the candidates was actively involved with killing Caldari servicemen through acts of terrorism, to boot, that will count against them - although the real attention will be paid to their politics. Do they truly seek rapprochement? Will they move the process of transferring Home back to State control?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#48 - 2015-01-28 21:37:58 UTC
Thank you for that insight, Pieter, it was exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#49 - 2015-01-28 22:14:05 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Thank you for that insight, Pieter, it was exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.



One tries to deliver something a little more thought out than "Death to the Federation!"

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Troy Cintryx
Strategic Operations Inc.
#50 - 2015-01-28 23:57:05 UTC
Quote:
Do they truly seek rapprochement? Will they move the process of transferring Home back to State control?



Please, elaborate on how that would work.

Do not forget Gallente Prime is in very close proximity to Caldari Prime. Should the Caldari State regain control of Caldari Prime, I no doubt forsee further conflicts in my home system. I grow tired of constant battles in Luminaire.


Perhaps there is a mechanism for joint control of Luminaire. Although I reject the idea of turning Luminaire over to CONCORD. So perhaps it is time those Caldari who do not embrace the Gallentean way of life on Caldari Prime leave... permanently.

Building empires in EVE for over 12 years.

Watch my EVE Corporation Management training videos here.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#51 - 2015-01-29 00:13:24 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Could those Caldari pilots who have thus far dominated every discussion on the upcoming Election with irrelevant arguments amongst each other... not?

I don't care who will win that post in Federation.

What I do care, is the Federation as a whole must be destroyed.
Also for war criminals like Roden and terrorists like Ramnev to be captured and executed. I don't care will they win the post or not, I care for them to be punished for all their crimes against Caldari and humanity as a whole.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Angel T Hunter
Republic Military School
#52 - 2015-01-29 00:15:03 UTC
Jukko Riis wrote:
Troy Cintryx wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Caldari Prime may be a very important planet, but it is still only a single one out of many hundreds of populated worlds in the Federation. Regardless of the nobility of miss Ramnev's policies regarding it, I should think it might be a bit of an unwise idea to elect someone based solely on a single subset of policies concerning only one matter.

It is OUR planet and doesn't belong to Gallente. It is only trapped in Gallente territory since signing of Federation charter.

Only when Federation charter will be cancelled we will be able to stop the war. But while at least a single gallentean will have their foot on OUR Caldari Prime, we will be attacking them EVERYWHERE!!

Death to Gallentean Occupants!!
For the State! For Caldari Prime!



Clearly Miss Kim is a Caldari extremist, and fails to appreciate the progressiveness of the Gallente Federation. That's the problem with the Caldari State. It is far too single minded.

Shaileen Ramnev can see past that. Being from Caldari Prime but also a Gallente citizen, she is in a position to lead our multicultural Federation through growth and cultural prosperity. Perhaps even, she will be able to tame even the Caldari into accepting that Caldari Prime is part of the Gallente Federation.





While Commander Kim's views can lean towards the extreme, her views do bear some degree of merit.

It is after all, our homeworld. Lines on a star chart do not erase that simple fact.

Ms. Ikiryo is right too, in that the Federation has more than just our planet to consider. What is her stance on the war? Is she willing to open some form of negotiation, or is she just another war-monger like Roden and Foiritan before him? Is she willing to cease Federation aggression in Black Rise? Is she willing to offer some form of reparation for the colonies the Federation destroyed there less than a decade ago? What is her stance on Intaki and their bid for freedom? Will she continue to let the Minmatar dictate Federation foreign policy when it comes to the Amarr, or will she see a path to peace that doesn't rely on the barrel of a gun?

In short, does she truly represent some form of progressive change within the Federation, or is she just another shill for same criminal policies of her predecessors? Is she looking to build or will she continue to destroy?





Minmatar dictating Gallente foreign policy?

Now thats about the dumbest thing I've ever heard..
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#53 - 2015-01-29 00:34:54 UTC
I have a solution! Why don't you State sabre rattler types make inroads with the Sansha and license their wormhole technology so you can open a planet-sized portal with which to transport Caldari Prime across space to a State controlled area? Just allow those citizens who wish to remain as part of the Federation time to leave before you open the portal. There! Problem solved. Roll

You see pilots, the situation isn't so cut and dried/black and white as some of you make it out to be.

So long as the homeworlds of both the Caldari and Gallente physically occupy the same solar system there will need to be some sort of peaceful understanding arranged between the parties.

P.S. While Matari are a sizable and powerful constituency within the Federal population we don't single-handedly control foreign policy. We're a (large) minority but, still a minority that does not dictate to the majority.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#54 - 2015-01-29 00:54:31 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
I have a solution! Why don't you State sabre rattler types make inroads with the Sansha and license their wormhole technology so you can open a planet-sized portal with which to transport Caldari Prime across space to a State controlled area? Just allow those citizens who wish to remain as part of the Federation time to leave before you open the portal. There! Problem solved. Roll

You see pilots, the situation isn't so cut and dried/black and white as some of you make it out to be.

So long as the homeworlds of both the Caldari and Gallente physically occupy the same solar system there will need to be some sort of peaceful understanding arranged between the parties.

P.S. While Matari are a sizable and powerful constituency within the Federal population we don't single-handedly control foreign policy. We're a (large) minority but, still a minority that does not dictate to the majority.

I have a better solution.
How about your return to your slave pen and do some handwork with keeping silence, since you can't do any work with your brain anyway?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#55 - 2015-01-29 01:32:40 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Caldari Prime is a Caldari world. The Caldari HOMEWORLD. There is no complexity. There is no division.


I fought above Caldari Prime in support of the State because out of the two options, I believe the State should have a right to govern and control it.

But even considering that, I must disagree with you. There are Gallente who live there who have been there longer then you've been alive. And there are people of Caldari blood who live inside the Federation who call both Caldari Prime and the Federation their own. Insisting on One People, One State is a madness generally left to people like Kim. The situation is not that black and white.


Whilst the lives of those Gallente living on Home need to be safeguarded and their rights considered, I hardly consider them the central point - any more than I consider my rights to your wallet should be the central point after I steal it while you're taking a shower and stick it in my backpocket.

One People, One State, Many Traditions is the full quote you were aiming for and it means that whilst all Caldari have a right to live in the State and whilst there can only ever be ONE Caldari State, there is room for many traditions within it. These traditions have typically belonged to the various Megacorps, but there are signs that Achuran traditions will also come to be accepted within the mainstream.

Should those Caldari tragically left behind during the exodus from Home opt to return to their people, we'd all welcome them with open arms, I'm sure, but until they do they are Federation citizens and the descendants of Federation citizens. If remaining on Caldari Prime was more important to them than living as free Caldari, then remaining on Home should be more important to them than living as free Gallente, no? Or they could even opt to stay on as guest workers, I suppose, if there's a local need for that sort of thing.

The current success with exploring diplomatic options should not be seen as a general lack of concern or care over the eventual fate of Home. Most of us see the current situation as a work-in-progress, with diplomacy as a better solution than costly and unjust war. So long as the wheels stay in motion, there is absolutely no need to escalate - but if the wheels fall off...

Things will get VERY black and white. Very fast.

Ahh and there it is.

What an excellent reminder to all of my Federal comrades who occasionally feel a bit soft towards the State, even those within who feign tolerance.

Interesting isn’t it how the interests of the State are so closely echoed by many of our kin, naiveté can indeed be fatal.
DocHolliday ii
Doomheim
#56 - 2015-01-29 01:47:23 UTC
As a Federation citizen i am saddened to see Roden standing for a second term. I believe the only place he should be standing is in the dock, in a criminal court for crimes against humanity, and along side him should be Blaque head of Federal Intelligence.
Involved in Black sites , torture, murder ,death squads against the Caldari. Even the murder of our own citizens, as reported by a black eagles whistleblower.

All this happened under Roden's watch as President. He is war criminal in my opinion.

When Heth was in power many Federation capsuleers said, we are not against the Caldari people it is only Heth we are against, he is a war criminal. Well we have our own war criminal now, he is standing for a second term in office, capsuleers openly supporting him, there is a hypocriscy here for all to see. Maybe because he is our war criminal , our goddam son of a *****, that makes it ok. I say no, it dosent make it ok, and i say no to second term for Roden.

At the moment im still unsure on which candidate is going to be the best option. Im looking for a candidate who can move forward a peace process bring an end to the war. The first move in that direction in my opinion is to at long last end Federation occupation and control of Caldari Prime. Most of the planet is now under control of the State, lets finish the job, and hand back once and for all their homeworld during this next term of goverment. Without it i see no end to the war between our nations.

Those Federation citizens who do not wish to live under the Caldari State should be relocated by the Federation goverment to other colonies in the Federation. Those who have made their homes on Cadari Prime and wish to stay should be allowed to , realize they are now living in the Caldari State.

Apart from the war and a move towards peace, as an Intaki i would like to see a candidate who is willing to discuss in the Senate the matter of Intaki independence during this next term. Hopefully agree to allow the Intaki people to have referrendum, on wether the Intaki colonies should remain as part of the Federation or cede and become independent.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2015-01-29 02:51:41 UTC
Angel T Hunter wrote:
Jukko Riis wrote:
Troy Cintryx wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Caldari Prime may be a very important planet, but it is still only a single one out of many hundreds of populated worlds in the Federation. Regardless of the nobility of miss Ramnev's policies regarding it, I should think it might be a bit of an unwise idea to elect someone based solely on a single subset of policies concerning only one matter.

It is OUR planet and doesn't belong to Gallente. It is only trapped in Gallente territory since signing of Federation charter.

Only when Federation charter will be cancelled we will be able to stop the war. But while at least a single gallentean will have their foot on OUR Caldari Prime, we will be attacking them EVERYWHERE!!

Death to Gallentean Occupants!!
For the State! For Caldari Prime!



Clearly Miss Kim is a Caldari extremist, and fails to appreciate the progressiveness of the Gallente Federation. That's the problem with the Caldari State. It is far too single minded.

Shaileen Ramnev can see past that. Being from Caldari Prime but also a Gallente citizen, she is in a position to lead our multicultural Federation through growth and cultural prosperity. Perhaps even, she will be able to tame even the Caldari into accepting that Caldari Prime is part of the Gallente Federation.





While Commander Kim's views can lean towards the extreme, her views do bear some degree of merit.

It is after all, our homeworld. Lines on a star chart do not erase that simple fact.

Ms. Ikiryo is right too, in that the Federation has more than just our planet to consider. What is her stance on the war? Is she willing to open some form of negotiation, or is she just another war-monger like Roden and Foiritan before him? Is she willing to cease Federation aggression in Black Rise? Is she willing to offer some form of reparation for the colonies the Federation destroyed there less than a decade ago? What is her stance on Intaki and their bid for freedom? Will she continue to let the Minmatar dictate Federation foreign policy when it comes to the Amarr, or will she see a path to peace that doesn't rely on the barrel of a gun?

In short, does she truly represent some form of progressive change within the Federation, or is she just another shill for same criminal policies of her predecessors? Is she looking to build or will she continue to destroy?





Minmatar dictating Gallente foreign policy?

Now thats about the dumbest thing I've ever heard..


There is a very large Minmatar population holding Federation citizenship, in case you had forgotten. The Republic does not dictate Gallente policy, but the citizens of Matari descent might.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#58 - 2015-01-29 04:23:57 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Ahh and there it is.

What an excellent reminder to all of my Federal comrades who occasionally feel a bit soft towards the State, even those within who feign tolerance.

Interesting isn’t it how the interests of the State are so closely echoed by many of our kin, naiveté can indeed be fatal.


Yes, very perceptive, you managed to catch me out in a truth. Not just a truth either, you managed to get me to admit that the Caldari want their home planet back, that they are willing to accept certain conditions pertaining to the speed of the handover, Federation control over the Luminaire system and the need to be sensitive to the needs of the current indigent population. That they are happiest negotiating a settlement, but that they are willing to go to war if they cannot negotiate in good faith during peacetime.

I really did think that EVERYONE had gotten that memo by now, James. You been doing hard time, or in a wormhole somewhere?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#59 - 2015-01-29 05:35:29 UTC
DocHolliday ii wrote:
As a Federation citizen i am saddened to see Roden standing for a second term. I believe the only place he should be standing is in the dock, in a criminal court for crimes against humanity, and along side him should be Blaque head of Federal Intelligence.
Involved in Black sites , torture, murder ,death squads against the Caldari. Even the murder of our own citizens, as reported by a black eagles whistleblower.


Of course you're against a second Roden term. Your post had the odour of a collaborator, so I took a quick look at your background. Why didn't you go ahead and state at the top of your post that you are "Pro Caldari" and "Pro Intaki Seccession?"

There you have it, fellow Federation Citizens. Normally I restrain myself from the use of words like "Traitor" but in your case...

Interesting that you bring up Blaque the way you do. No mention of the truth, that he was given a free hand by Suoro Foiritan at the start of the war and has undermined both Presidents with equal alacrity since. So far the only Federation leader to have outmaneuvered him at all is none other than Jacus Roden when he came to power.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2015-01-29 06:18:48 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
DocHolliday ii wrote:
As a Federation citizen i am saddened to see Roden standing for a second term. I believe the only place he should be standing is in the dock, in a criminal court for crimes against humanity, and along side him should be Blaque head of Federal Intelligence.
Involved in Black sites , torture, murder ,death squads against the Caldari. Even the murder of our own citizens, as reported by a black eagles whistleblower.


Of course you're against a second Roden term. Your post had the odour of a collaborator, so I took a quick look at your background. Why didn't you go ahead and state at the top of your post that you are "Pro Caldari" and "Pro Intaki Seccession?"

There you have it, fellow Federation Citizens. Normally I restrain myself from the use of words like "Traitor" but in your case...

Interesting that you bring up Blaque the way you do. No mention of the truth, that he was given a free hand by Suoro Foiritan at the start of the war and has undermined both Presidents with equal alacrity since. So far the only Federation leader to have outmaneuvered him at all is none other than Jacus Roden when he came to power.


If Jacus Roden go, Blaque should go with him. I can't imagine any other presidential candidate being able to leash that man.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.