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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Roxanne Quall
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#721 - 2015-01-27 19:24:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Roxanne Quall
Brunik Rokbyter wrote:
I have to "hot drop" myself into this discussion....


There are a lot of people indignant about a lot of issues here, and there are people pointlessly pounding their heads against the spaceport wall. The issue here is people inserting opinions into facts, and emotions ruling over reason... and this is true for BOTH sides of this argument.

The purpose of this discussion is, in fact, AFK cloaking. Not JUST afk cloaking in terms of sov space, but having a character, in space, invisible, with no means to track them down regardless of where or what systems you have at your disposal. Lets take this from the "bigger picture".

CCP, as a company designing games, has ALWAYS allowed for counters to any form of gameplay. The counter might just be common sense thinking or strategic planning... but it exists. Right now, as it stands, there is NOTHING to keep a player from AFK'ing in space in a cloaky ship. Any other ship, in any other space, under any other conditions is vulnerable. The question comes down to simply, is this a part of core game design that should stay that way or not? This argument is NOT about cloaky camping (the most common form of AFK cloaking)... but about actual game concepts and mechanics.

Active cloakers have many things to worry about... from warping in too close to objects and de-cloaking themselves to how vulnerable they are jumping gates.... but if you sit in one spot, there is a 0.00000000000000%chance something will happen, or that you can be tracked down.

Personal opinion time!

I love covert operations. I use cloakys all the time, and I have been guilty of afk cloaky camping in hostile territory. I would also support a move by CCP to make cloaky ships vulnerable to detection as WELL as a system to prevent AFK ship flying (Don't really CARE if we talk cloaky here or not)

Concepts ranging from one cloaky being able to detect another from within a 20km radius, with probes that can get you sorta close to that range... almost like fumbling blindly looking for your target.... to the destroyer concept, to just about anything you can imagine, as long as an active pilot has a chance to counter the counter to their cloaking with smart play. There needs to be a "counter" to a cloak no different than there is any other system in the game. Not because cloaking is OP, or other lame arguments, but because in this game nothing is free. No one is safe.... except for an afk pilot with a cloak, and pilots that are docked...

It really doesn't matter if you are talking about Sov Space, High Sec, Faction warfare.... someone in space should be vulnerable to something AT ALL TIMES. Even ships inside of POS's can get bombed.


That is the point and well made. A AFK person should not be effecting other actively playing players. and if hes a active cloaker he needs to not feel 10000% safe.

Gate camps do nothing to a player sitting in space.


Daichi Yamato wrote:


Local intel is free, omnipotent, perfect, flawless, instant, colour coordinated and provides total safety. And correct a counter does exists, afk cloaking.

glad you think something should be done about both rather than just one or that both should have their counters remain intact.


All space ships would be fitted with basic scanning devices that gave you different degrees of data, Why wouldn't you know about the gates activating? In eve lore it's the gates that do Local it's the jovan gates that read your custom player ID, by activating the gate you give local data. Thus none in WH space. the game gives you a way outta local, it doesn't have anything for cloakers other than wait to be attacked.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#722 - 2015-01-27 19:29:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Roxanne Quall wrote:
That is the point and well made. A AFK person should not be effecting other actively playing players. and if hes a active cloaker he needs to not feel 10000% safe.

Gate camps do nothing to a player sitting in space.
While he is 10000% safe, so are you from him. (Making that figure higher, doesn't make your argument any stronger or more relevant. Just a heads up.)

Which leads back the the first question.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, which mechanic do they use to interact with you?Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Roxanne Quall
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#723 - 2015-01-27 19:31:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Roxanne Quall
Mag's wrote:
Roxanne Quall wrote:
That is the point and well made. A AFK person should not be effecting other actively playing players. and if hes a active cloaker he needs to not feel 10000% safe.

Gate camps do nothing to a player sitting in space.
While he is 10000% safe, so are you from him. (Making that figure higher, doesn't make your argument any stronger or more relevant. Just a heads up.)

Which leads back the the first question.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, which mechanic do they use to interact with you?Blink


D-scan

Local

Anoms Warp points

even probes if he launched and re cloaked, which takes seconds and not allowing any chance of being found or being vulnerable

All free data to you for interacting with me.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#724 - 2015-01-27 19:34:52 UTC
Roxanne Quall wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Roxanne Quall wrote:
That is the point and well made. A AFK person should not be effecting other actively playing players. and if hes a active cloaker he needs to not feel 10000% safe.

Gate camps do nothing to a player sitting in space.
While he is 10000% safe, so are you from him. (Making that figure higher, doesn't make your argument any stronger or more relevant. Just a heads up.)

Which leads back the the first question.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, which mechanic do they use to interact with you?Blink


D-scan

Local

Anoms Warp points

even probs if he launched and re cloaked, which takes seconds and not allowing any chance of being found or being vulnerable;e

All free data to you for interacting with me.
I asked which mechanic he uses whilst AFK. Most of those you mention, require active play. One does not and it is a major part of your problem. Local.

But for some strange reason, you do not want to include it in your ideas for change. Ugh

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#725 - 2015-01-27 19:38:06 UTC
Roxanne Quall wrote:


All space ships would be fitted with basic scanning devices that gave you different degrees of data, Why wouldn't you know about the gates activating? In eve lore it's the gates that do Local it's the jovan gates that read your custom player ID, by activating the gate you give local data. Thus none in WH space. the game gives you a way outta local, it doesn't have anything for cloakers other than wait to be attacked.


And a cloak would circumvent those scanners, otherwise its not really a cloak is it.

The game gives many ways to combat afk cloakers, and you dont even have to move where you live.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Roxanne Quall
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#726 - 2015-01-27 19:38:22 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Roxanne Quall wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Roxanne Quall wrote:
That is the point and well made. A AFK person should not be effecting other actively playing players. and if hes a active cloaker he needs to not feel 10000% safe.

Gate camps do nothing to a player sitting in space.
While he is 10000% safe, so are you from him. (Making that figure higher, doesn't make your argument any stronger or more relevant. Just a heads up.)

Which leads back the the first question.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, which mechanic do they use to interact with you?Blink


D-scan

Local

Anoms Warp points

even probs if he launched and re cloaked, which takes seconds and not allowing any chance of being found or being vulnerable;e

All free data to you for interacting with me.
I asked which mechanic he uses whilst AFK. Most of those you mention, require active play. One does not and it is a major part of your problem. Local.

But for some strange reason, you do not want to include it in your ideas for change. Ugh


Don't do that you know what your doing. You have no idea if hes there or not thus your question doesn't make any sense and doesn't add to the discussion.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#727 - 2015-01-27 19:40:55 UTC
Roxanne Quall wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Roxanne Quall wrote:
That is the point and well made. A AFK person should not be effecting other actively playing players. and if hes a active cloaker he needs to not feel 10000% safe.

Gate camps do nothing to a player sitting in space.
While he is 10000% safe, so are you from him. (Making that figure higher, doesn't make your argument any stronger or more relevant. Just a heads up.)

Which leads back the the first question.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, which mechanic do they use to interact with you?Blink


D-scan

Local

Anoms Warp points

even probes if he launched and re cloaked, which takes seconds and not allowing any chance of being found or being vulnerable

All free data to you for interacting with me.

Free helpful advice...

Is your cloaked adversary using any tool that requires an active element?
(They can't be active and AFK at the same time!)

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Roxanne Quall
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#728 - 2015-01-27 19:45:44 UTC
your making this a Schrödinger's cat discussion and thats just going go no where.


You know that anyone cloaked has to be assumed to be there at all times so if someone can go AFK and stay there all day but the people in the system are FORCED to assume hes there then you have a Flawed Game Mechanic
Mag's
Azn Empire
#729 - 2015-01-27 19:49:39 UTC
Roxanne Quall wrote:
Mag's wrote:
I asked which mechanic he uses whilst AFK. Most of those you mention, require active play. One does not and it is a major part of your problem. Local.

But for some strange reason, you do not want to include it in your ideas for change. Ugh


Don't do that you know what your doing. You have no idea if hes there or not thus your question doesn't make any sense and doesn't add to the discussion.
The thread is in regards to AFK cloaking. Many talk of the extended periods of time, these cloakers spend in system. So it's perfectly valid to discuss ALL the mechanics involved in AFK cloaking. I know you do not want that and wish to cherry pick, but that's is not a balanced approach.

I want things left as they are. But IF change is required, I will call for ALL the mechanics involved to be addressed at the same time.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#730 - 2015-01-27 19:51:18 UTC
the term 'schrodingers hot dropper' has already been coined.

you need to accept that cloaks are not the only flawed game mechanic. The perfect intel of local is part of this whether you like it or not.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Roxanne Quall
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#731 - 2015-01-27 19:59:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Roxanne Quall
your game mechanic that you obviously hate is local, Eve gave you a solution. So your point is Mute

And I've said time and time again to you that ships would have the technology to do d-scan and EVE has stated that local isn't just randomly good info it's part of the EVE Gate dynamic and you going into a gated system then they are set up to give everyones ships player ID's ... so you kinda signed on for that coming to known space

You know what system your going to, if you want no local stay in WH space if you wana deal with it then the rest of eve is opened up. So you have the ablity to get rid of local already yet you choose not to. I wanna pvp the cloaked camper and there is nothing set up to do so. he gets to engage when he knows him and his buddy can win. It's a 100% safe situation for him and yet the only way for anyone to not get droped on is to just not play or go elsewhere.
Harry Saq
Of Tears and ISK
ISK.Net
#732 - 2015-01-27 20:05:34 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Roxanne Quall wrote:
That is the point and well made. A AFK person should not be effecting other actively playing players. and if hes a active cloaker he needs to not feel 10000% safe.

Gate camps do nothing to a player sitting in space.
While he is 10000% safe, so are you from him. (Making that figure higher, doesn't make your argument any stronger or more relevant. Just a heads up.)

Which leads back the the first question.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, which mechanic do they use to interact with you?Blink


Mag's, your argument is either ignorant (which you maybe shouldn't be posting on the topic if so) or deliberately disingenuous (filibustering by making people state what has been stated ad nauseum so the discussion constantly derails). It is not in dispute whether a cloaked non-detectable person in local impacts others in the system.

It is literally a PvP tactic well documented and quite effective. If you want to argue the merits of local to the point of never addressing anything having to do with cloaking, then start a topic or contribute to threads where it is discussed (I would actually love for local to not exist). Instant intel through local affects a wide array of areas and does deserve its own topic, so you should argue that there.

If you were genuinely discussing the aspects of cloaking and the ability to be 100% safe while AFK cloaked in space anywhere (Empire while war dec'ed for example) then you would discuss the merits of the cloak mechanic. The relevant mechanic being it is a module that once active, requires no upkeep, fuel or action to maintain, and keeps you safe perpetually whether you are at the computer or not (so long as you are in a safe or a place not likely to have others come within 2k).

I don't agree with any of the sov driven mechanics in relation to dealing with cloaked ships and think it is overly cumbersome and misses the point. It is quite simply the mechanic of no upkeep/cost/actions to hold cloak that would need to be addressed if it were ever to be addressed. If your ship is in space, it is in play and fair game, otherwise dock up somewhere or logout safely and go afk.

All of the other chest thumping and playstyle arguments are just distractions. I love being able to cloak up in space and go eat dinner or do crap the wife is pissed I didn't do, and it is very convenient. I also think that local needs to go away and provides way to much intel and screws up a whole range of potential fun. That being said, I think the mechanics of cloaking are worth looking at, so that you have to do stuff or consider resources to maintain it...

see https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5436291#post5436291
Mag's
Azn Empire
#733 - 2015-01-27 20:08:50 UTC
Roxanne Quall wrote:
your game mechanic that you obviously hate is local, Eve gave you a solution. So your point is Mute

And I've said time and time again to you that ships would have the technology to do d-scan and EVE has stated that local isn't just randomly good info it's part of the EVE Gate dynamic and you going into a gated system then they are set up to give everyones ships player ID's

You know what system your going to, if you want no local stay in WH space if you wana deal with it then the rest of eve is opened up. So you have the ablity to get rid of local already yet you choose not to. I wanna pvp the cloaked camper and there is nothing set up to do so. he gets to engage when he knows him and his buddy can win. It's a 100% safe situation for him and yet the only way for anyone to not get droped on is to just not play or go elsewhere.
Again with the non sequitur regarding WH space.
No matter how many times you tell us about how it works there, it's irrelevant.

I don't hate local. I believe I said more than once I like the current situation. I also pointed out that while the cloaker is 100% safe, you are from him. It is also demonstrably false to claim you need to either move, or not play.

I'll say this again, I like the status quo. But IF change is required, then ALL mechanics involved should be looked at the same time and changes should come in a package including Local, intel gathering, cloaks and maybe even cynos.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#734 - 2015-01-27 20:11:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Harry Saq wrote:
Mag's, your argument is either ignorant (which you maybe shouldn't be posting on the topic if so) or deliberately disingenuous
That maybe true, if reading and comprehension is a problem.

Oh and that's as far as I read. Just wanted to repay the compliment. Cool

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#735 - 2015-01-27 20:14:40 UTC
Roxanne Quall wrote:
your making this a Schrödinger's cat discussion and thats just going go no where.


You know that anyone cloaked has to be assumed to be there at all times so if someone can go AFK and stay there all day but the people in the system are FORCED to assume hes there then you have a Flawed Game Mechanic

Well, your statement is partially true.
It goes places you do not care to follow.

It points out that noone is FORCED to do anything.
Very specifically, EVE is NOT a game of absolutes, with no gray areas.

If you are not certain if an AFK player is paying attention, you are under no obligation to assume anything.

You are certainly not being forced to, at the very least.

In point of fact, the knowledge that many players are able to operate despite the presence of a hostile name, begs the reasoning they have for doing so.

Possibilities include:

1. The hostile name is a phantom menace, and is actually an alt of someone who is supposed to be your ally.
They seek to drive you and others away, while they take all the good PvE resources for themselves.
This is a real thing, and has been done.

2. The hostile name has been on for at least 12 hours, and was known to be active 8 hours ago.
Optionally, they have records that indicate a specific time zone for their activity, making them predictably safe.
Whether sleeping or at some job, the hostile's activity profile suggest that this is a perfectly safe time to operate.

3. The hostile is watching. They are about to hot drop, and all will be mercilessly destroyed as divine forces descend from the heavens with holy wrath upon thy pitiful.... errr, cough cough... kill mails get involved, yes?

See, the hostile wants you to believe number three, if they are bluffing.
They want you to believe number two, if they are a real threat.

These possibilities are mutually exclusive, and while one might become another, they can only be one at any given time.

So, like a poker game, you have to guess what their hand is, and whether yours is better.

You can't really play EVE, and expect not to gamble.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#736 - 2015-01-27 20:19:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Roxanne Quall wrote:
your game mechanic that you obviously hate is local, Eve gave you a solution. So your point is Mute

And I've said time and time again to you that ships would have the technology to do d-scan and EVE has stated that local isn't just randomly good info it's part of the EVE Gate dynamic and you going into a gated system then they are set up to give everyones ships player ID's ... so you kinda signed on for that coming to known space

You know what system your going to, if you want no local stay in WH space if you wana deal with it then the rest of eve is opened up. So you have the ablity to get rid of local already yet you choose not to. I wanna pvp the cloaked camper and there is nothing set up to do so. he gets to engage when he knows him and his buddy can win. It's a 100% safe situation for him and yet the only way for anyone to not get droped on is to just not play or go elsewhere.


So you'd be ok with ships that enter a system by covert cyno or WH not showing up in local until they use a gate? cool.

You knew what system you chose to rat in and you knew you couldnt detect cloaked ships. So you kinda signed on for that when you went to null.

If you dont want afk cloakers, stay out of null sec. so you have the ability to get away from afk cloakers already. I wanna covertly stalk my targets and there is nothing set up to do so. My target gets to see me the instant i enter system, before i can even load. You get to dock up until you and your friends know you can win. Its a 100% safe situation for you and yet the only way to not get detected is to not play (go afk) or go else where.




Yes thats right, you just said that the cloaker has to go elsewhere for his gameplay, but you dont have to go else where to avoid afk cloakers because.....?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Harry Saq
Of Tears and ISK
ISK.Net
#737 - 2015-01-27 20:21:17 UTC
The ALL or nothing approach to change management is another ridiculous argument (i.e. fix all things at once or don't touch it).

If your ship is in space you are fair game. Pretty simple. Looking through that lens makes the conversation much easier.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#738 - 2015-01-27 20:23:30 UTC
Harry Saq wrote:
The ALL or nothing approach to change management is another ridiculous argument (i.e. fix all things at once or don't touch it).

If your ship is in space you are fair game. Pretty simple. Looking through that lens makes the conversation much easier.

Yeah, we keep seeing that logic appearing.

Look, all the names in local are either green or blue, we can PvE!

Look, NOT all the names in local are green or blue, we must NOT PvE!

All or nothing, it really seems to miss the point.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#739 - 2015-01-27 20:23:48 UTC
Harry Saq wrote:
The ALL or nothing approach to change management is another ridiculous argument (i.e. fix all things at once or don't touch it).

If your ship is in space you are fair game. Pretty simple. Looking through that lens makes the conversation much easier.


Thats a nice biased lens.

Look through the: There shouldnt be a perfect intel tool that makes a mockery of covert play lens and the conversation becomes even easier.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Harry Saq
Of Tears and ISK
ISK.Net
#740 - 2015-01-27 20:34:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Saq
"Thats a nice biased lens." That lens is exactly in the spirit of your own sig "EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"". Is being afk in space and immune to everything that would allow someone to detect and come within 2k of you being ever vigilant?

I like your other lens, and agree with it. "There shouldnt be a perfect intel tool that makes a mockery of covert play lens and the conversation becomes even easier." Agreed, get rid of local (also needs to be a new topic).

This is pretty simple.