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A Message Regarding "Hyperdunking"

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CCP Falcon
#1 - 2015-01-27 16:35:53 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Falcon
Since the introduction of the Bowhead freighter, we’ve become aware of a tactic that has been introduced which has become known as “Hyperdunking”. This involves leaving a grid where a criminal action occurs to draw away CONCORD and reshipping to continue shooting at a target. There’s been much discussion among members of the community regarding this tactic, and whether or not it is considered legitimate gameplay.

After meeting with members of the game design and customer support teams and discussing this in depth, we have come to the consensus that due to the fact no rules are being broken and any ship that is involved in a criminal act is being destroyed by CONCORD as intended, that this tactic is simply an unintended but legitimate use of new game mechanics, and is not in breach of the rules. Tactics similar to this have been used with previous hulls before the Bowhead was introduced, and have been considered perfectly legitimate in the past.

With this in mind, at this time we do not consider this tactic to be in breach of the game rules, and as such our customer support team will not be offering reimbursements for hulls lost in this manner.

Players are also reminded that if someone is criminally flagged, they are fair game to be attacked in self-defense. Feel free to use this to your advantage.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Annette Nolen
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2015-01-27 16:51:12 UTC
Thanks for the clear answer on this finally :)
Makari Aeron
Felix Legions
The Watchmen.
#3 - 2015-01-27 16:53:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Makari Aeron
Falcon, please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this contradict the ruling from 3 years ago?

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-boomerang-avoiding-concord-in-high-security-space.-updated/

EDIT: or is it because the hyperdunker loses their ship, they aren't actually "avoiding" CONCORD?

CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP

CCP Falcon
#4 - 2015-01-27 16:56:26 UTC
Makari Aeron wrote:
Falcon, please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this contradict the ruling from 3 years ago?

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-boomerang-avoiding-concord-in-high-security-space.-updated/

EDIT: or is it because the hyperdunker loses their ship, they aren't actually "avoiding" CONCORD?


That ruling is from three years ago, before the release of Retribution and before the introduction of the new Crimewatch system.

Therefore, it's no longer applicable, and the current ruling overrides it.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Talos Antilles
Doomheim
#5 - 2015-01-27 16:57:33 UTC
Makari Aeron wrote:
Falcon, please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this contradict the ruling from 3 years ago?

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-boomerang-avoiding-concord-in-high-security-space.-updated/

EDIT: or is it because the hyperdunker loses their ship, they aren't actually "avoiding" CONCORD?


I was wondering the same thing:

"..even if you later return to that grid while still affected by that GCC."
Makari Aeron
Felix Legions
The Watchmen.
#6 - 2015-01-27 17:01:40 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Makari Aeron wrote:
Falcon, please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this contradict the ruling from 3 years ago?

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-boomerang-avoiding-concord-in-high-security-space.-updated/

EDIT: or is it because the hyperdunker loses their ship, they aren't actually "avoiding" CONCORD?


That ruling is from three years ago, before the release of Retribution and before the introduction of the new Crimewatch system.

Therefore, it's no longer applicable, and the current ruling overrides it.



Thank you for clarifying.

CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#7 - 2015-01-27 17:25:30 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Since the introduction of the Bowhead freighter, we’ve become aware of a tactic that has been introduced which has become known as “Hyperdunking”. This involves leaving a grid where a criminal action occurs to draw away CONCORD and reshipping to continue shooting at a target. There’s been much discussion among members of the community regarding this tactic, and whether or not it is considered legitimate gameplay.

After meeting with members of the game design and customer support teams and discussing this in depth, we have come to the consensus that due to the fact no rules are being broken and any ship that is involved in a criminal act is being destroyed by CONCORD as intended, that this tactic is simply an unintended but legitimate use of new game mechanics, and is not in breach of the rules. Tactics similar to this have been used with previous hulls before the Bowhead was introduced, and have been considered perfectly legitimate in the past.

With this in mind, at this time we do not consider this tactic to be in breach of the game rules, and as such our customer support team will not be offering reimbursements for hulls lost in this manner.

Players are also reminded that if someone is criminally flagged, they are fair game to be attacked in self-defense. Feel free to use this to your advantage.


So when can we expect CONCORD podding the criminals?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#8 - 2015-01-27 17:28:52 UTC
Thanks for clearing this up. Cool

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2015-01-27 17:30:11 UTC
Makari Aeron wrote:
Falcon, please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this contradict the ruling from 3 years ago?

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-boomerang-avoiding-concord-in-high-security-space.-updated/

EDIT: or is it because the hyperdunker loses their ship, they aren't actually "avoiding" CONCORD?

I obviously don't set policy but there's a big difference between the two and so it's reasonable you'd treat them differently.

The boomerang allowed you to get a ****-ton more damage out of a single ship - this just lets you get a lot more damage out of a single pilot in a specific timeframe at a cost of increased ships. With the boomerang (before it was banned) I could clear out most of an ice belt in a single tornado by warping to the top and bottom, alphaing, then warping away before i got blown up - I'd die eventually, but I'd kill way more ships per lost tornado. This doesn't have the same ability to let me get way more out of a single ship before it explodes.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#10 - 2015-01-27 17:33:32 UTC
Talos Antilles wrote:
Makari Aeron wrote:
Falcon, please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this contradict the ruling from 3 years ago?

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-boomerang-avoiding-concord-in-high-security-space.-updated/

EDIT: or is it because the hyperdunker loses their ship, they aren't actually "avoiding" CONCORD?


I was wondering the same thing:

"..even if you later return to that grid while still affected by that GCC."

The exploit mentioned there was a way to avoid CONCORD retribution by warping around on-grid — breaking the single rule with CONCORD. So two things make it inapplicable in this case: one is that the boomerang tactic was patched out; the other is that it was outlawed because you avoided CONCORD retribution in order to keep your ship and keep killing, whereas the entire point of chain-ganking (I will not use that sophomoric h-word) is that it relies on losing your ship CONCORD retribution in order for the whole thing to actually work.

So as Falcon points out, it's an outdated ruling from a mechanical standpoint, and it is an inapplicable ruling from a technical standpoint.
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
So when can we expect CONCORD podding the criminals?

Never. Podding is a 100% player activity and there's no reason for NPCs to ever do it.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#11 - 2015-01-27 17:36:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Bagrat Skalski wrote:
So when can we expect CONCORD podding the criminals?

Never. Podding is a 100% player activity and there's no reason for NPCs to ever do it.



Just keep believing that...

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

tgl3
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#12 - 2015-01-27 17:37:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Never. Podding is a 100% player activity and there's no reason for NPCs to ever do it.

The new roaming sleepers pod, I think.
Although you have to aggress them first. And they have low DPS. And don't warp scram. But still.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#13 - 2015-01-27 17:39:42 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Tippia wrote:

Never. Podding is a 100% player activity and there's no reason for NPCs to ever do it.

Just keep believing that...

I'll keep believing it until there's a reason for NPCs to do it. Until then, it's pointless faff, and even after that, it's still nothing CONCORD has any business doing.
Pooji Bongton
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2015-01-27 17:44:46 UTC
Ty for the answer. It's in my opinion the wrong answer but I thank you for reacting anyway.

Logical and reasonable..
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#15 - 2015-01-27 17:45:29 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Since the introduction of the Bowhead freighter, we’ve become aware of a tactic that has been introduced which has become known as “Hyperdunking”. This involves leaving a grid where a criminal action occurs to draw away CONCORD and reshipping to continue shooting at a target. There’s been much discussion among members of the community regarding this tactic, and whether or not it is considered legitimate gameplay.

After meeting with members of the game design and customer support teams and discussing this in depth, we have come to the consensus that due to the fact no rules are being broken and any ship that is involved in a criminal act is being destroyed by CONCORD as intended, that this tactic is simply an unintended but legitimate use of new game mechanics, and is not in breach of the rules. Tactics similar to this have been used with previous hulls before the Bowhead was introduced, and have been considered perfectly legitimate in the past.

With this in mind, at this time we do not consider this tactic to be in breach of the game rules, and as such our customer support team will not be offering reimbursements for hulls lost in this manner.

Players are also reminded that if someone is criminally flagged, they are fair game to be attacked in self-defense. Feel free to use this to your advantage.
So why is it not considered an exploit considering you are avoiding the entire consequence of having the criminal timer. The criminal timer is supposed to mean that you are prevented from operating while under it, which is why you can't warp with it running. Using an orca to reship on grid avoids this and means that for each gank run you do you are gaining only a criminal timer of a few minutes as your existing timer is refreshed.

What this also means is that almost any ship or structure in the game can now be solo ganked. Considering one of the driving factors for the removal of input broadcasting was preventing people from being able to solo gank large ships and structures with ease, this seems like the exact opposite.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#16 - 2015-01-27 17:46:59 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
So why is it not considered an exploit considering you are avoiding the entire consequence of having the criminal timer.
Because they are not avoiding them.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#17 - 2015-01-27 17:49:27 UTC
The only outstanding issue not addressed, is the pansies who cried 'exploit!' in the first place, and space-lawyer-up every damned time a content-creator gets creative (sandbox, remember?)...Let us read from the book of HTFU, chapter Ganking...

CCP Falcon wrote:
Okay, so what follows is entirely my personal opinion.

It's not a case of not "catering to the tearfilled entitled", it's a case of us staying true to the core of what EVE was built on.

Some of the people complaining in this thread have valid points about the fact that they don't feel safe. Simple fact of the matter is, that you're not suppose to feel safe in New Eden.

Eve is not a game for the faint hearted. It's a game that will chew you up and spit you out in the blink of an eye if you even think about letting your guard down or becoming complacent.

While every other MMO starts off with an intro that tells you you're going to be the savior of the realm, holds your hand, protects you, nurtures your development and ultimately guides you to your destiny as a hero along with several other million players who've had the exact same experience, EVE assaults you from the second you begin to play after you create a character, spitting you out into a universe that under the surface, is so complex that it's enough to make your head explode.

The entire design is based around being harsh, vicious, relentless, hostile and cold. It's about action and reaction, and the story that unfolds as you experience these two things.

True, we're working hard to lower the bar of entry so that more players can enjoy EVE and can get into the game. Our NPE (New Player Experience) is challenging, and we're trying to improve it to better prepare rookies for what lies out there, but when you start to play eve, you'll always start out as the little fish in the big pond.

The only way to grow is to voraciously consume what's around you, and its your choice whether that happens to be New Eden's abundant natural resources, or the other people who're also fighting their way to the top.

EVE is a playing experience like no other, where every action or reaction resonates through a single universe and is felt by players from all corners of the word. There are no shards here, no mirror universes, no instances and very few rules. If you stumble across something valuable, then chances are someone else already knows where you are, or is working their way toward you and you better be prepared to fight for what you've discovered.

EVE will test you from the outset, from the very second you undock and glimpse the stars, and will take pleasure from sorting those who can survive from those who'd rather curl up and perish.

EVE will let you fight until you collapse, then let you struggle to your feet, exhausted from the effort. Then when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel it'll kick you flat on your ass in the mud again and ask you why you deserve to be standing. It'll test you against every other individual playing at some point or another, and it'll ask for answers.

Give it an answer and maybe it'll let you up again, long enough to gather your thoughts. After a few more steps you're on the ground again and it's asking more questions.

EVE is designed to be harsh, it's designed to be challenging, and it's designed to be so deep and complex that it should fascinate and terrify you at the same time.

Corporation, Alliances and coalitions of tens of thousands have risen and fallen on these basic principles, and every one of those thousands of people has their own unique story to tell about how it affected them and what they experienced.

That's the beauty of EVE. Action and reaction. Emergence.

Welcome to the most frightening virtual playground you'll ever experience.

Beautiful.

p.s.
As some now consider the implementing of yet another stealth nerf-hisec mechanic in the form of 'social corporations' that are 100% safe from being wardecced (wtF?!), I think the other devs (or CSM-bears) also missed that memo...

F
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#18 - 2015-01-27 17:50:51 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
So why is it not considered an exploit considering you are avoiding the entire consequence of having the criminal timer.
Because they are not avoiding them.
Of course you are. They may as well have the criminal timer expire once concord blows up their ship and replace it with a suspect timer if they are still allowed to freely operate as if it didn't exist. The criminal timer prevents you warping a ship while it ticks down. Using an alt to warp that ship for you in an orca then hopping into it while in space seems to be against what the criminal timer is for, so why does it even exist?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#19 - 2015-01-27 17:53:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lucas Kell wrote:
So why is it not considered an exploit considering you are avoiding the entire consequence of having the criminal timer.
Because it is not avoiding the consequence in the slightest. In fact, you're doing the exact opposite: your applying it to its fullest — even prolonging it for far longer than is usually necessary. The entire trick relies on those consequences to work.

Quote:
The criminal timer is supposed to mean that you are prevented from operating while under it, which is why you can't warp with it running.
And that is exactly what happens. Not until CONCORD comes along and releases you from those restrictions can the next phase of the gank take place. This is also why the old ruling wouldn't apply regardless: because you are taking the full brunt of the intended punishment and rolling with it.

Quote:
Using an alt to warp that ship for you in an orca then hopping into it while in space seems to be against what the criminal timer is for, so why does it even exist?
It exists to remove the boomerang exploit and ensure that you can't avoid CONCORD blowing your ship up by simply warping off.
ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#20 - 2015-01-27 17:55:08 UTC
Will using bumping (and occasionally agressing them with a throwaway alt) to keep a player from logging out be addressed soon?
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