These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The end of Hybrid buff
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#81 - 2011-12-20 04:56:13 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

I am not comparing Tiers because it is not relevant to the state of Current Balance. It is however a major factor causing imbalance. The question is in what form would a Tierless Brutix take that could rattle the Canes Cage take?


Actually, you were directly comparing tiers. The fact that we don't have a proper tier 2 blaster BC means that none of us should be shocked that blasters aren't really competitive in the BC arena. And to answer your question - I think a Cane that wanders too close to a Brutix really should be careful even now... and that's with a two slot and tier based EHP disadvantage.

Quote:

Do you think there will ever be a viable Gallente Fleet Warship is another question worth asking? Do you think CCP could find a way to allow any Gallente Ship to be the center of a BC Fleet in the same way the Drake and Cane can? The reason I wonder this is that since Blasters can not role at Scorch Ranges and Artillery has a much more brutal Alpha then Rails. Rails have enough difficulty competing, add the poor Tank to DPS Ratio on on Gal Battlships with that and it makes things worse for any large fleet hopes.


I'm totally fine with having weapon platforms that aren't really at peak performance in every possible situation and I think thats a role that Blasters shouldn't excel in. I think if people are itching for large gang fleet use of Hybrids they should be looking towards fixing railguns and probing mechanics.

-Liang

Ed: Punctuation typo

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Goose99
#82 - 2011-12-20 05:02:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
Liang Nuren wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:
the cyclone wipes the floor with the brutix; its tank is multifold better, and it has better damage projection.

and trust me, you wont be seeing more hybrid boats. i havent seen a single successful "hybrid" gang across all FW militias since Crucible hit.


I just took a look at that. So from what I'm seeing, your standard shield brutix with Null will outdamage your average max gank Cyclone out to 16.5km, and resume the damage superiority at 20km where the Cyclone's HAMs stop working. Also, it seems pretty interesting to comment on blasters working in FW blobs. They haven't ever worked in blobs and I don't really expect them to start working in blobs.

-Liang


Too much EFT. With blasters being what it is, brutix does almost no dps at point range, even with null. Cyclone will kite it until it dies. Undock once in a while.Roll
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#83 - 2011-12-20 05:06:08 UTC
Goose99 wrote:

Too much EFT. With blasters being what it is, brutix does almost no dps at point range, even with null. Cyclone will kite it until it dies. Undock once in a while.Roll


I undock all the time in blaster ships. How about you?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Goose99
#84 - 2011-12-20 05:09:34 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

Too much EFT. With blasters being what it is, brutix does almost no dps at point range, even with null. Cyclone will kite it until it dies. Undock once in a while.Roll


I undock all the time in blaster ships. How about you?

-Liang


On behalf of all Winmatar pilots: Where do you fly?Cool
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2011-12-20 05:27:51 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Too much EFT. With blasters being what it is, brutix does almost no dps at point range, even with null. Cyclone will kite it until it dies. Undock once in a while.Roll



You are an idiot and I am now unable to read anything else that you post. I'm afraid if I read anything else from you then I will catch the stupids.
Goose99
#86 - 2011-12-20 05:29:13 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Too much EFT. With blasters being what it is, brutix does almost no dps at point range, even with null. Cyclone will kite it until it dies. Undock once in a while.Roll



You are an idiot and I am now unable to read anything else that you post. I'm afraid if I read anything else from you then I will catch the stupids.


U MAD BRO?Cool
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#87 - 2011-12-20 05:57:40 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

Too much EFT. With blasters being what it is, brutix does almost no dps at point range, even with null. Cyclone will kite it until it dies. Undock once in a while.Roll


I undock all the time in blaster ships. How about you?

-Liang


On behalf of all Winmatar pilots: Where do you fly?Cool


Amamake. Come play. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#88 - 2011-12-20 06:00:09 UTC
Another thought on the Winmatar vs. Gallente scenario....

Rather than proposing a speed boost to Gallente blaster boats, which I think would just end up overly tipping the scales to the Gallente ships again, how about introducing small and medium web drones into the mix? Gallente are the primary drone users after all and the blaster boats already have drone bays.

The small web drones should be based on the Warrior and fast enough to catch any speed-fit frigate. The medium drones should be fast enough to catch any speed-fit cruiser.

The web strength would not need to be excessive - just enough to allow an armor tanked Gallente blaster boat to catch up, and force the Minmatar ship to spend time trying to pop the drones before the blaster boat can get within blaster range. This would also give the Gallente blaster boat the option of disengaging, by allowing it to pull range.

It also might be a good idea to reduce tracking speed on ACs and/or reduce the signature radius on the web drones to make them more difficult to hit with guns. And perhaps reduce the size of drone bays on Minmatar ships, to make it a bit harder to simply counter the web drones with combat drones, or to slow down the Gallente ship with their own web drones.
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#89 - 2011-12-20 06:50:33 UTC
As a previous proponent of the smaller web drones, I have to say that I think its a bad idea now - everyone could use them.... Whatever changes that come need to be mostly ship specific if possible. Too many variables otherwise.

Kingwood wrote:
People are confusing the metagame issue with the Hybrid issue. The only reason blasters feel "left behind" are because of the current metagame existing in game - bring more than the other guys and always have backup ready. And if something goes really wrong, hey, drop a capital.

This is bad for ships which have to fully commit to a fight and have to fight in full tackle range, i.e. Gallente. Couple this with the fact that armor tanking slows you down, makes you less agile, and takes up slots for range enhancing mods (tracking enhancers) and you'll see that Gallente is the race which hasn't aged together with Eve very well.

Honestly, I believe Blasters themselves are fine now. The issue boils down to Armor vs. Shield tanking, with Shield tanking being so vastly superior to armor tanking that it has become the norm in 0.0 solo and small gang PvP. Balance Armor vs Shield, and Gallente should be fully viable again (as long as you realize you'll still be fighting in full tackle range). You can't really change the metagame though - most people are risk averse and will not fight unless vastly outnumbering their opponents or by bringing in Falcons and Logistics.


I think this is the core issue explained well. Gallente need a 'light armor' skirmish option that gives some buffer, but allows us to keep up speed and/or rep. Bottom line - we need some ship- specific hull changes...

Blaster seem ok now in their envelope. Its just hard to get to the envelope to fight. I am growing a new fetish for medim rails. Ive actually 2 separate rail thorax that have survived 5+undocks and gotten me numerous kills. My blaster boats get kills too, but they never redock after a fught. Such is the life of the scram addict.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#90 - 2011-12-20 07:01:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
[DP]

.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#91 - 2011-12-20 07:02:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
Alara IonStorm wrote:

Former Blue Rep here and will return because RvB PvP is just so much fun. Good to point out that RvB is way different then other forms of PvP.

In RvB you see very little Kiting. It is mostly Brawler fits there and because of that Blasters do exceptionally well. Every fleet has MWD Frigate and or Ceptor Tackle, a lot of it so kiting ships tend to be left behind and Tank / DPS come out more. Ships like Duel Web Canes shine where Shield Canes are rarer. You have to adjust your fits to meet this brawling atmosphere.


o7

Yes, it is true that there different styles of PvP, and RvB is made special by the rules and general idea of fighting a lot and keeping it cheap and accessible. Still, all my pre-RvB engagements happened deep inside blaster optimals; at wormholes where ships spawn closer than on gates or warped to zero by cloaky scout. I would choose a blaster boat with webs to these situations too, because the damage advantage is very real.

Quote:
Blasters do alright in RvB. But the lack of a good Gallente Battlecruiser to match the Drake and Cane for real fleets and gangs as well as the lack of a Gallente fleet ship in General is an issue. You just don't see any Gallente Ships you can build a coordinated gang out of.


Maybe the prominence of those two ships does not make blaster boats bad? I mean where are all the other BCs in general?

Quote:
http://bluerep.eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=64815&view=ships_weapons&m=12&y=2011

Even looking at the RvB stats, a place all about Brawlers, Blasters are no where near top dog. Drakacane make a strong showing though of course. The Rifter, Rupture, Thrasher and Cane team take the cake having the highest score in each of there respective classes.


I don't regard popularity as a perfect indicator of a ship's worth. Of course a bad ship wouldn't be popular, but it's more complicated than just the stats. Gallente bashing has been a trend for a long time, when all you read is Winmatar and Drake, why would you want to train anything else? Many people think Rifter is the only frigate, and that leads to Ruppies and Canes.

Anyway I'm not arguing that blaster ships have the range and speed of the current top ranked ships, they clearly don't. But what they do now possess is close range supremacy. Whether new tactics emerge to take advantage of this, or will blaster boats still be locked to their niches, remains to be seen.

.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2011-12-20 07:28:27 UTC
blaster boats need to go faster still, and medium rails are still horrendous. unusable even, on anything except the Proteus. everyone is arguing that blasters fill this niche role now. fine. improve medium rails so that hybrid boats can have something more than a niche role.
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#93 - 2011-12-20 07:35:40 UTC
Gallente ships are already the second fastest in the game and are so close to agility compared to minmatar that it's barely noticeable. How much faster do they need to be?
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2011-12-20 07:46:35 UTC
Smabs wrote:
Gallente ships are already the second fastest in the game and are so close to agility compared to minmatar that it's barely noticeable. How much faster do they need to be?


They won't be happy till they have the speed of Minmatar, the range of Caldari, and the DPS of... what they have already.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#95 - 2011-12-20 08:02:43 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
As a previous proponent of the smaller web drones, I have to say that I think its a bad idea now - everyone could use them.... Whatever changes that come need to be mostly ship specific if possible. Too many variables otherwise.

Then, perhaps the drone bays should be removed from, or reduced on, most of the non-Gallente ships? It really does not make much sense for every race to be equally drone-capable, esp. since not every race is equally missile-capable, too.

The game already has "too many variables", which is why you cannot fix the problem by simply buffing the speed of the Gallente blaster boats. The result of doing so would just make them the FOTM once again.

If a Gallente blaster boat can always catch a Minmatar AC ship, then the Minmatar ship is going to lose... every time. And, you might as well write off most of the slower Caldari ships completely at that point.

The "fix" needs to be much more situational, and something which can be countered. Ship-specific fixes are typically the worse solutions. Making the Diemost into a Vagabond-killer is just not the right way to approach the problem, since you'll just end up with folks arguing to buff up the Vagabond.

As I suggested in a previous post, the fix needs to include a nerf to projectile weapons, which are horribly unbalanced right now. Combine this with some new web drones and I think you'll end up with a more balanced, and more interesting game.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2011-12-20 08:17:42 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:

As I suggested in a previous post, the fix needs to include a nerf to projectile weapons, which are horribly unbalanced right now. Combine this with some new web drones and I think you'll end up with a more balanced, and more interesting game.


Projectile weapons are not unbalanced. Tracking enhancers falloff could be reduced a little and there are a couple Minmatar ships that could have their falloff bonus changed to a tracking bonus or something similar, however, to nerf projectiles would be to relegate Minmatar back to the days where they were considered "Eve on hard mode" because of their massively low dps and inability to apply any dps without getting into web/scram range which everyone knows = death to Minmatar against any other race out there.

They are made to fight in falloff and have the speed to keep them there. As it is now, falloff is a bit out of hand. Not projectile weapons. Flat nerf to a weapon system when people complain about a couple ships is just idiotic. Even more so when half of those ships aren't even Minmatar, but are a pirate race that uses the Minmatar weapon system.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2011-12-20 09:01:47 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Emily Poast wrote:
As a previous proponent of the smaller web drones, I have to say that I think its a bad idea now - everyone could use them.... Whatever changes that come need to be mostly ship specific if possible. Too many variables otherwise.

Then, perhaps the drone bays should be removed from, or reduced on, most of the non-Gallente ships? It really does not make much sense for every race to be equally drone-capable, esp. since not every race is equally missile-capable, too.

The game already has "too many variables", which is why you cannot fix the problem by simply buffing the speed of the Gallente blaster boats. The result of doing so would just make them the FOTM once again.

If a Gallente blaster boat can always catch a Minmatar AC ship, then the Minmatar ship is going to lose... every time. And, you might as well write off most of the slower Caldari ships completely at that point.

The "fix" needs to be much more situational, and something which can be countered. Ship-specific fixes are typically the worse solutions. Making the Diemost into a Vagabond-killer is just not the right way to approach the problem, since you'll just end up with folks arguing to buff up the Vagabond.

As I suggested in a previous post, the fix needs to include a nerf to projectile weapons, which are horribly unbalanced right now. Combine this with some new web drones and I think you'll end up with a more balanced, and more interesting game.

yep ,
Blasters seems fine to some extend (most hybrid ships are still crap), but ac-s are just too good , fitting requirement should be increased a bit, so winmatar cant fit everything onto their superspeed ships to make them more tanky/more everything as a blaster ship. I would also lower close range ammo dmg.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2011-12-20 09:37:42 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:

yep ,
Blasters seems fine to some extend (most hybrid ships are still crap), but ac-s are just too good , fitting requirement should be increased a bit, so winmatar cant fit everything onto their superspeed ships to make them more tanky/more everything as a blaster ship. I would also lower close range ammo dmg.


Let's look at the facts.

425mm AC IIs, the largest in the medium AC range
Power 154
CPU 25
Duration 5.625
Optimal 2400
Falloff 9600
Tracking 0.1056
Damage Mod 3.465

Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Power 187
CPU 33
Duration 5.25
Optimal 3600
Falloff 5000
Tracking 0.12
Damage Mod 4.41

Heavy Pulse Laser II
Power 231
CPU 35
Duration 5.25
Optimal 12000
Falloff 4000
Tracking 0.08125
Damage Mod 3.6

The ACs are the easiest to fit, next are the Blasters, and hardest to fit are the Lasers.
Highest Optimal is Amarr, then Gallente, then Minmatar.
Highest Falloff is Minmatar, then Amarr, then Gallente. (Maybe Gallente should have higher falloff then Amarr since Amarr has the highest optimal, this would put Gallente middle ground on both Optimal and Falloff)
Fastest Duration is Amarr tied with Gallente, with Minmatar being a bit slower than both of them.
Gallente has the best damage mod, Amarr has the second best damage mod, Minmatar has the least damage mod.
Gallente has the best tracking, Minmatar has the second best tracking, and Amarr has the least tracking.

For the most part, this all looks fairly well ballanced. This would then lead to the ships needing to be looked at, not a weapon system.

Go over this again. Minmatar has the lowest damage mod, the lowest optimal, lowest cycle duration, second best tracking, and best falloff.

Gallente has the best tracking, the best damage mod, is tied for first for cycling time, second best optimal, worst falloff. ( I think they could do with a bit more falloff, but that's just me. )
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2011-12-20 09:44:38 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:

yep ,
Blasters seems fine to some extend (most hybrid ships are still crap), but ac-s are just too good , fitting requirement should be increased a bit, so winmatar cant fit everything onto their superspeed ships to make them more tanky/more everything as a blaster ship. I would also lower close range ammo dmg.


Let's look at the facts.

425mm AC IIs, the largest in the medium AC range
Power 154
CPU 25
Duration 5.625
Optimal 2400
Falloff 9600
Tracking 0.1056
Damage Mod 3.465

Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Power 187
CPU 33
Duration 5.25
Optimal 3600
Falloff 5000
Tracking 0.12
Damage Mod 4.41

Heavy Pulse Laser II
Power 231
CPU 35
Duration 5.25
Optimal 12000
Falloff 4000
Tracking 0.08125
Damage Mod 3.6

The ACs are the easiest to fit, next are the Blasters, and hardest to fit are the Lasers.
Highest Optimal is Amarr, then Gallente, then Minmatar.
Highest Falloff is Minmatar, then Amarr, then Gallente. (Maybe Gallente should have higher falloff then Amarr since Amarr has the highest optimal, this would put Gallente middle ground on both Optimal and Falloff)
Fastest Duration is Amarr tied with Gallente, with Minmatar being a bit slower than both of them.
Gallente has the best damage mod, Amarr has the second best damage mod, Minmatar has the least damage mod.
Gallente has the best tracking, Minmatar has the second best tracking, and Amarr has the least tracking.

For the most part, this all looks fairly well ballanced. This would then lead to the ships needing to be looked at, not a weapon system.

Go over this again. Minmatar has the lowest damage mod, the lowest optimal, lowest cycle duration, second best tracking, and best falloff.

Gallente has the best tracking, the best damage mod, is tied for first for cycling time, second best optimal, worst falloff. ( I think they could do with a bit more falloff, but that's just me. )




gallente... those are called blasters not gallente:P
btw you missed some very needed parts like : cap use , dmg type , ammo types t1 t2 , all of those are ac favoured which greatly moves your balanced comparison into winac, imba op pulse t2 range and poor blasters
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2011-12-20 09:46:49 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:

gallente... those are called blasters not gallente:P
btw you missed some very needed parts like : cap use , dmg type , ammo types t1 t2 , all of those are ac favoured which greatly moves your balanced comparison into winac, imba op pulse t2 range and poor blasters


Which then makes it an ammo issue, not a weapon system issue.