These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#581 - 2015-01-23 21:25:14 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Delegate. If you are refering to "I have to sit on my hands and just hope the camper wishes to leave at some point." and trying to imply that I just sit in station till the threat leaves. If you look a couple posts down, I did state that I was talking about not being to engage the camper.


I'm referring the whole text I quoted and let others draw their own conclusions.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#582 - 2015-01-23 21:27:09 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
...

See this is where I have an issue. I am cool with a cloaky coming in and scoring kills. What normally happens in the space I am in, when a camper ventures in, we try to kill them in route. If they make it to their destination and decide to camp, that is fine as well. However we are still going to be on high alert. This camper is going to just sit in perfect safety and wait. They may wait, minutes, hours, days, weeks or months. Again this is all fine.

Where I see the issue is that the people in the system can do nothing to dislodge this player from the system. Now lets look at things differently. Lets say that Goons are going to be staging supers in a system for a deployment. A cloak makes it to that system. They now can gain all the intel they want by just watching. This in itself is not wrong, however the fact that nothing the Goons do will ever threaten that pilot. This is where I see the flaw.

PVP or PVE or ANything. It doesnt matter. Once a ship is in system, it is completely immune to attack.

So I ask. Why should this be allowed?

For starters, sitting in perfect safety has limited value.

Unless report worthy intel is available on a regular basis, this is a complete paid account which is effectively sitting idle.

I actually have no problem with being able to dislodge the cloaked character... BUT, quid pro quo...
I want something in return.

I want that cloaked character able to do more than just sit, if they are to become vulnerable to this ejection.

I want them able to equally affect the PvE targets, not just threaten them impotently while they cannot be reached.

Perhaps they are able to place explosives in certain asteroids, which are triggered by close proximity of other ships.
Perhaps they can perform a transaction with NPC pirates, spawning greatly enhanced fighting ships to turn the tables on the next ratters to show up.

And a kill mail for each time these results cause a loss of ship, to be fair.

In exchange, I myself would consider the means to track cloaked ships using normal cloaks, in hostile space, or any cloaked type mounting any cyno, in hostile space.
In both cases, I specify in hostile space, as I don't feel cloaking itself should be completely compromised.
I also deliberately left out any covert cloak using ship not equipped with a cyno, simply because scouting deserves a pass.

I would concede that special consideration is needed for Black Ops here, it is a unique ship deserving a unique ability.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#583 - 2015-01-23 21:36:53 UTC
Nikks wrote:

Perhaps they are able to place explosives in certain asteroids, which are triggered by close proximity of other ships.


I have always been a fan of this idea. I think at some point mines did exist in game but were quickly removed. I am not sure why. It was before my time in game.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#584 - 2015-01-23 22:22:09 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Nikks wrote:

Perhaps they are able to place explosives in certain asteroids, which are triggered by close proximity of other ships.


I have always been a fan of this idea. I think at some point mines did exist in game but were quickly removed. I am not sure why. It was before my time in game.


They were a huge cause of lag, and because at the time they had not implemented a drone bandwidth system (the mines were drones, basically) people could in theory just spam them everywhere.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#585 - 2015-01-23 22:26:05 UTC
Ahhh hmmmm interesting

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#586 - 2015-01-23 22:33:55 UTC
Yeah, so in-space mines is probably never happening. I personally would like it revisited, but what with their recently going after drone mechanics to reduce server load (of which they are apparently big contributors), it seems highly unlikely.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#587 - 2015-01-23 22:42:27 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Yeah, so in-space mines is probably never happening. I personally would like it revisited, but what with their recently going after drone mechanics to reduce server load (of which they are apparently big contributors), it seems highly unlikely.


A fair point, and I guess that explains the lack of mines.

How about this, in that case:
Your cloaked player can have the option of sabotaging the asteroids, and driving away the NPC pirates.

(They toast anything perceived as valuable, and leave before things become unpleasant for them)

This is, after all, economic warfare....

It has been fairly well established the cloaked fellow is unlikely to catch the PvE player, let's give them a secondary target.

Push the defending players to either track down our cloaked protagonist, or stand guard over the mining and ratting grounds.

Everyone has something to do, can stay active, and the game is afoot.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#588 - 2015-01-23 22:45:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Yeah, so in-space mines is probably never happening. I personally would like it revisited, but what with their recently going after drone mechanics to reduce server load (of which they are apparently big contributors), it seems highly unlikely.


I think there might be opportunity to revisit them under mobile structures, but Im not sure how difficult that would be.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#589 - 2015-01-23 22:48:15 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Yeah, so in-space mines is probably never happening. I personally would like it revisited, but what with their recently going after drone mechanics to reduce server load (of which they are apparently big contributors), it seems highly unlikely.


I think there might be opportunity to revisit them under mobile structures, but Im not sure how difficult that would be.


I asked once during a ship rebalance thread, and the answer, while long, could be summed up as "hell no".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#590 - 2015-01-23 22:51:58 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Rowells wrote:


So you think having to camp a gate for 23/7 is a valid tactic to keep someone out? And simply finding a single moment when the system is vulnerable means you wont have to risk anything beyond that?

Beyond travelling, you dont risk anything, but gain quite a bit of advantage. Depending on ship and cloak type you can gain a massive advantage. There is no hard counter to this. You can play the meta game and hope that works out, but thats it. And attempting to hunt them is currently a joke. You have to hope that the pilot is actually active at that time and doesnt recognize your bait for what it is.

Problem with how cloaks currently work is the amount of safety they grant versus how much effort or risk is taken. Fit a T1 cloak to your rookie ship and viola you are now untouchable eyes in system. Should that really be all it takes to offer invulnerability?

Your idea of system defense is a little too binary for it to actually be engaging or fun.


Bolded is the flaw. it's the same argument high sec people make when they say that gankers don't "pay" enough when they kill untanked industrial ships with destroyers (ie combat ships). It's nonsense, worrying about how much effort someone else is making rather than simply figuring out how you can make yourself safe no matter HOW MUCH effort they take is a character trait of people who complain about such things. Basically it's a victim mentality.

The things I do to keep myself safe from afk cloakers and bad guys in null in general (syuch as wathcing intel, wathcing local, fitting to survive, making sure my overview is set right so i can warp out if I need to, arrange for defense fleet in whatever system im ratting in and DEFEND OUR ACCESS POINTS etc) take some effort and thinking, in fact they take more effort than fitting a cloak to a ship and traveling somewhere which is what afk cloakers do.

That's fine because I'm the one who wants to not die lol. Worrying about how much effort someone else is putting in takes time away from my thinking about playing the game and thus my enjoyment. I don't expect CCP to play this game for me, and if somehow the 'field' isn't level I level it for myself, because I stopped needing to run to mommie for help some decades ago lol.

I don't think this is an unreasonable standard for a mostly adult gaming community.


To add on what you say, and comment on the bolded. The funny thing is, replace cloak with "docking in station", and the cloakers have the same arguement. All a pve'r has to do is dock with unlimited invulnerability. This is too easy. Perhaps we should be able to sabotage station docking by using a "hack" tool to jettison random players from station.

Same principle as those wanting to nerf cloaks.

Could you imagine the tears?

I believe the major difference is the interaction and resources involved. I can RF or destroy a POS and I can flip a station or damage its services to the docked people (btw I fully support the idea of destructible stations). What's missing with cloaks is the opportunity to interfere with them in any way. There's not even an effective way to meddle with the Intel provided aside from being somewhere else. No false positives or anything like that.

And I'm not referring this discussion to ratting or mining (haven't done those hardcore for a while) but the availability of Intel and a secure cyno into a system.
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#591 - 2015-01-23 22:56:07 UTC
I know this will never happen but what I would love. Cloak doesnt drop at all no matter how close you get. Cloaks can be detected. Either hunting or not hunting BUT certain ships, like recons or whatever can steal things.

Slide up under another ship. Check their cargo with a scanner and snag some loot.

I am at work and heading home but I can detail a style of cloak that I personally love. see what people think. it wouldnt take much effort to make either.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#592 - 2015-01-23 22:58:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Rowells wrote:
What's missing with cloaks is the opportunity to interfere with them in any way.


They also don't provide a benefit that's even close to approaching how useful a station or POS is.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#593 - 2015-01-23 23:01:39 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
I know this will never happen but what I would love. Cloak doesnt drop at all no matter how close you get. Cloaks can be detected. Either hunting or not hunting BUT certain ships, like recons or whatever can steal things.

Slide up under another ship. Check their cargo with a scanner and snag some loot.

I am at work and heading home but I can detail a style of cloak that I personally love. see what people think. it wouldnt take much effort to make either.


I mentioned this to the other guy a page or so ago, but that is not EVE Online.

That is Elite Dangerous, or some other flight sim.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#594 - 2015-01-23 23:13:18 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
I know this will never happen but what I would love. Cloak doesnt drop at all no matter how close you get. Cloaks can be detected. Either hunting or not hunting BUT certain ships, like recons or whatever can steal things.

Slide up under another ship. Check their cargo with a scanner and snag some loot.

I am at work and heading home but I can detail a style of cloak that I personally love. see what people think. it wouldnt take much effort to make either.


I mentioned this to the other guy a page or so ago, but that is not EVE Online.

That is Elite Dangerous, or some other flight sim.



Yes and no. A theft system could easily be brought into EVE. Just be another module.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#595 - 2015-01-23 23:20:09 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:

Yes and no. A theft system could easily be brought into EVE. Just be another module.



It could easily be brought into EVE, but it never will.

Because then I don't even have to gank freighters to get their cargo.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#596 - 2015-01-23 23:23:19 UTC
Rowells wrote:
I believe the major difference is the interaction and resources involved. I can RF or destroy a POS and I can flip a station or damage its services to the docked people (btw I fully support the idea of destructible stations). What's missing with cloaks is the opportunity to interfere with them in any way. There's not even an effective way to meddle with the Intel provided aside from being somewhere else. No false positives or anything like that.

And I'm not referring this discussion to ratting or mining (haven't done those hardcore for a while) but the availability of Intel and a secure cyno into a system.

Well, let's not forget the sheer difference in scale.

YOU, yourself alone, cannot RF or destroy a POS before having someone politely ask you to please stop.
Such inquiries usually being presented as a coded sequence of missiles, beam weapons, and blasters.

The same would go for flipping a station, etc.

And even if you brought in a brute frontal assault group, and managed it, the PvE craft would likely manage to evacuate before becoming at risk of loss to the owners.

Describing these structures as vulnerable, in this context, is somewhat misleading... to say the least.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#597 - 2015-01-23 23:26:34 UTC
This is how I have seen stealth done before. It's not far from what EVE does now and the game was almost identical to EVE in its sandbox style.

Key points.

Local was based on distance and there was not a player list associated with it. You only saw a name when someone spoke but there was no delay. So much like WH space.

Stealth classes could stay in stealth as long as they wanted but it hindered movement, and in some cases you were given bonuses to initial attacks. Stealth could only be uncloaked via damage. Stealth was also dropped when doing any form of offensive action but you didnt have to decloak to attack. The attack itself decloaked you. Thus you got the drop on your target.

How this was countered was with a hunting class. The scouts could hunt the stealth classes and were themselves stealthed. The way they did this was based on distance. You had basically a dscan. It showed all players around you. You didnt know which was the stealth character and which wasnt. You had to look that up by name. You could lock a player and you were guided via an arrow towards that person. You would never see the person until you set off a reveal style bomb that would reveal an area, as well as yourself. After that you fight.

Now not all characters could dscan the stealth players. They had to depend on their scouts to keep them safe.

There was also a thief that could steal directly from your inventory. Not this WoW junk where it steals some made up item. I mean literally see a players inventory and steal what you wanted.

Now I know this isnt EVE and an exact replication of this wouldnt work in EVE however a modification of this could work well.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#598 - 2015-01-23 23:29:49 UTC
How about this.

Covert shipping, lets say bombers as an example... are able to destroy asteroids.

They would use a specialized bomb that is far more friendly to store as ammo, and would be ineffective against player ships the same way mining lasers don't hurt player ships.

Regular Covert Ops craft would be able to broadcast a warning beacon, which would scram any NPC pirates from the system for a comparable amount of time.
(IE: The asteroids would respawn at the same rate as if they had been mined, same with the rats)

In exchange, in hostile space, you can gain an opposed ability to hunt cloaked craft.
(Anything mounting a cyno or using a non covert cloak)

How would that sound?

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#599 - 2015-01-23 23:35:56 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
How about this.

Covert shipping, lets say bombers as an example... are able to destroy asteroids.

They would use a specialized bomb that is far more friendly to store as ammo, and would be ineffective against player ships the same way mining lasers don't hurt player ships.

Regular Covert Ops craft would be able to broadcast a warning beacon, which would scram any NPC pirates from the system for a comparable amount of time.
(IE: The asteroids would respawn at the same rate as if they had been mined, same with the rats)

In exchange, in hostile space, you can gain an opposed ability to hunt cloaked craft.
(Anything mounting a cyno or using a non covert cloak)

How would that sound?


I like the bomb. Actually what I think would be insanely fun is a ECM style burst you could use in a rat spawn that would spawn all the waves at once. Even a ratting carrier would have a bit of a time dealing with that and you wouldnt know till you landed.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Bloody2k
SKULL AND B0NES
#600 - 2015-01-24 01:11:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloody2k
This post need to be moderated. CCP, every solution approach needs to be seperated. We find no solution this way.